The Lord Ruler Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Mild Mistborn spoilers, I guess. The number '16' is everywhere Perservation is: 16 allomantic metals, 16 years before the people Preservation chooses reach the Well of Ascenscion, and tons of other stuff I don't remember. Likewise, the number 10 is everywhere on Roshar: 10 heralds, 10 of the cities that are constantly mentioned, 10 orders of Knights Radiant, and so on and so forth. There are 16 shards, right? Maybe these numbers have something to do with ranking or which piece separated from Adonalsium first. Edited January 13, 2012 by The Lord Ruler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zas678 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 You know, I was actually just wondering the same thing. Are there certain numbers associated with each Shard? Like is Endowment 1, Devotion 2, etc? Or maybe there's only 10 shards left out of the Sixteen. But then again, 10 is a number that shows up a number of times in Scadrial as well. The Ten Great houses to name one. The Ten members of the crew (Sazed, Breeze, Kelsier, Ham, Clubs, Dockson, Vin, Spook, Marsh, OreSeur) Elend ends up replacing Kelsier, Cett ends up replacing Clubs, Noorden fills Dockson, and TenSoon takes OreSeur's place. The Ten basic metals (though that was false) is another example. That's just off the top of my head. EDIT- I couldn't remember Dockson's name. Or Noorden for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 While I find this possible, I certainly don't think it plausible. The number 16 seems to have some significance to Scadrial, but the planet has been used as a "habitat" for two Shards, not just one. Which one would you attribute the number to? Moreover, 16 relates to the metals used for all three Metallic Arts - and this magic system came as a byproduct of the interaction between Preservation and Ruin. I suppose you could make the argument that Allomancy was the original magic system on Scadrial, and when Ruin came around he just kind of corrupted it, so that his Intent could utilize it better; hence Hemalurgy. And then Feruchemy is a balancing force... but I think this is too much of a stretch. We face a similar issue in Roshar and the number 10. Except here we have three Shards. Again, you could say something like "Honor was the original Shard, and Surgebinding - the original magic system, but then Odium came and hated the living hell out of it, creating Voidbringing. And then Cultivation was the neutral side." But it just feels too far-fetched to me. Feel free to play with the idea though, the fact that I find a theory improbable doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord Ruler Posted January 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) It may seem like a big stretch, but it took Rashek exactly 16 days to reach the Well of Ascension, exactly sixteen percent of populations were getting the mist-sickness in the Hero of Ages, and they all were sick for exactly sixteen days, and they were snapped afterwards, and could burn metals. On top of all of this, in the passages before chapters, it's mentioned that by Sazed that Preservation used the number 16 as a sort of signature. And Feruchemy is based on Allomanic metals because it's a mix of Ruin and Preservation's magic systems, and uses those to operate. As for Roshar, the Knights Radiant and the Heralds are both related to Honor, and we haven't really seen much of the other Rosharan shards. Edited January 14, 2012 by The Lord Ruler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 actually most of them were sick for 16 hours, only the atium mistings were sick for 16 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Keep in mind that Ruin and Preservation appear to be paired. They could both be grouped under the number 16, or one's number could be 1 and one's number could be 6. Their combination would be what makes the 16 show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradel Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Keep in mind that Ruin and Preservation appear to be paired. They could both be grouped under the number 16, or one's number could be 1 and one's number could be 6. Their combination would be what makes the 16 show up. Wouldn't that be seven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiveAM Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 It doesn't have to add.. This is really interesting.. I like. How about in Warbreaker? Could Endowment be 7? Or however long a week is on Nalthis (time a Returned's Divine Breathe lasts). @zas how did you get 1 for Endowment and 2 for Devotion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 That's interesting. I always thought there'd be a similar reason to the number 10 in Stormlight Archive as there would be to the number sixteen in Mistborn. For instance, perhaps 10 is the number of unshattered shards, or there's something fundamental about the number ten on Roshar, but this could be a possibility, especially with the speculation that Ruin and Preservation "added up" to 16. (It could also be that Honour, Cultivation, and Odium "add up" to 10) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain.Kaulu Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well, as for 16, we're told that it has a lot of significance beyond just Scadrial. Preservation adopted it and used it as a "sign" because it was the theme number of Adonalsium already. (This is coming from one of Sazed's epigraphs in Hero of Ages.) It's not clear whether 16 was significant to Adonalsium for more reasons than the containment of 16 Intents that became the Shards after the Shattering, though. As for 10, the "first" place we see it show up in Cosmere lore is Brandon's meta-comment that there are 10 major shardworlds. This makes me think that it, like 16, has significance across the whole Cosmere, not just on Roshar (although I grant you it has a LOT of prevalence in Roshar). So I don't think we're going to see a "one" shard, and a "two" shard, and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 I think 10 and 16 have some connection to Adonalsium itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dros Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Could the numbers be significant in the makeup of the Shards themselves? Like 10 aspects that make up Honor? If shattered, Honor would release 10 individual splinters (not sure what they're called when shattred?), Preservation would release 16, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asha'man Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 I thought (and please correct me if I am wrong here) that Preservation used the pattern of 16 to make it obvious to humans that there was a pattern. In other words, the exact number itself is not the important part, but the fact that there was a recurring number at all. That in and of itself does not rule out the possibility of each number correlating with a specific shard though; It does however give evidence to the fact that 16 may just be an important number to the Cosmere and not to solely Preservation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 I totally agree that 10 and 16 are cosmically significant numbers, and this theory should be tested out as more info comes to light. I do offer one possible spanner for this theory, though it's a small enough thing: Larasium. When the Lord Ruler first came to the Well of Ascension there were 10 beads of Larasium, not 16. One he took for himself, 8 were given to those who became the first allomancers, leaving one which Elend ate at the end of book 2. Possibly derails the theory, but still supports the numbers 10 and 16 being significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 I highly doubt each shard has a number. I'm fairly sure the reason 16 and 10 keep popping up is some insinct or memory in the shards, something about those numbers holds signifigance to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 I do offer one possible spanner for this theory, though it's a small enough thing: Larasium. When the Lord Ruler first came to the Well of Ascension there were 10 beads of Larasium, not 16. One he took for himself, 8 were given to those who became the first allomancers, leaving one which Elend ate at the end of book 2. Possibly derails the theory, but still supports the numbers 10 and 16 being significant. The count actually is slightly different. For one, while I do believe that the Lord Ruler burned lerasium to recieve his powers, I personally doubt that he is counted among the Original Nine Allomancers. He's supposed to be a deity, that illusion could be undone if people began to realize that he had some of the same powers as regular Allomancers. Makes him seem less divine to me. Also, no one ever mentioned that the Lord Ruler was an Allomancer while the crew is planning the job. I'm pretty sure they compare him to one, but if I'm remembering right no one ever says that he is one. If he was counted among the Original Nine, then I think this would have been common knowledge. So far, by this count, we have ten beads already (not to say that I'm right for sure). Elend burns an eleventh and then Peter told us that there is at least one more bead of lerasium out there. So we have at least 12 beads accounted for now. Also, welcome to 17th Shard! We're glad to have you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 The Lord Ruler was definitely an allomancer; it's his ability to compound by combining allomancy and feruchemy that gave him his deity-like abilities (which is why he tried to breed feruchemy out of the Terris people, so no-one else could have the same potent combination of abilities). I can't remember 100%, but I think one of the epigraphs in HoA states that he consumed one of the beads himself (I'd have to re-check it to be sure though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 The count actually is slightly different. For one, while I do believe that the Lord Ruler burned lerasium to recieve his powers, I personally doubt that he is counted among the Original Nine Allomancers. He's supposed to be a deity, that illusion could be undone if people began to realize that he had some of the same powers as regular Allomancers. The Lord Ruler was one of these ancient Allomancers, his power pure and unadulterated by time and breeding. That is part of why he was so mighty compared to other Mistborn—though, admittedly, his ability to mix Feruchemy and Allomancy was what produced many of his most spectacular abilities. Still, it is interesting to me that one of his "divine" powers—his essential Allomantic strength—was something every one of the original nine Allomancers possessed. When it says "Original nine" it includes TLR. In the mythology, TLR had 8 friends he gave allomancy, he wasn't counted as one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 That's interesting. I always thought there'd be a similar reason to the number 10 in Stormlight Archive as there would be to the number sixteen in Mistborn. For instance, perhaps 10 is the number of unshattered shards, or there's something fundamental about the number ten on Roshar, but this could be a possibility, especially with the speculation that Ruin and Preservation "added up" to 16. (It could also be that Honour, Cultivation, and Odium "add up" to 10) The significance of 10 in the Cosmere is there are 10 Sharworlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 When it says "Original nine" it includes TLR. In the mythology, TLR had 8 friends he gave allomancy, he wasn't counted as one of them. If I'm not misunderstanding you, then you just contradicted yourself. The Lord Ruler can't only give Allomancy to 8 people, while not being one of the Original Nine Allomancers. That quote doesn't specify that TLR was one of them, so I'm sticking with my assertion. The way I interpret the quote, "ancient Allomancers" refers to a lerasium Mistborn. It doesn't make sense to me that he would be one of them, for the same reasons I mentioned above. Noble families are proud of their heritage, I'm sure being a direct descendant of one of the Allomancers would be something to brag about. So surely someone would realize that only 8 of the Allomancers were accounted for? TLR wanted people to believe he was a god, he would not have allowed himself to be counted among a group of more regular men. If people realized that his powers were not divine, he would have been in significantly more danger. I understand how you interpret that quote, but in my mind, TLR being counted among the Nine doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 If I'm not misunderstanding you, then you just contradicted yourself. The Lord Ruler can't only give Allomancy to 8 people, while not being one of the Original Nine Allomancers. That quote doesn't specify that TLR was one of them, so I'm sticking with my assertion. The way I interpret the quote, "ancient Allomancers" refers to a lerasium Mistborn. It doesn't make sense to me that he would be one of them, for the same reasons I mentioned above. Noble families are proud of their heritage, I'm sure being a direct descendant of one of the Allomancers would be something to brag about. So surely someone would realize that only 8 of the Allomancers were accounted for? TLR wanted people to believe he was a god, he would not have allowed himself to be counted among a group of more regular men. If people realized that his powers were not divine, he would have been in significantly more danger. I understand how you interpret that quote, but in my mind, TLR being counted among the Nine doesn't make sense. The only time I remember anybody mentioning 9 original allomancers was in the HoA epigraphs, and when Sazed said 9, he included TLR. I'm assuming in the Steel Ministry's teachings, there were only 8 originals, TLD being exluded from the group. Make sense? Or did I fail again? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Regarding TLR and the 9 allomancers, it's true that Sazed might have been including Rakesh. But, he spouts it off so easily that it feels like he's recounting something he knew before becoming a shard. Like if someone was to mention the twelve disciples, or the three wise men, or the the eleven Doctors. It could go either way, but from the general context, it seems that 9+TLR is more likely than 8+TLR Anywho, regarding the original number theory, it seems that Endowment would likely be five. Five original returned, five visions, five gods in unity, etc. Ten appears, but not often enough, and not in meaningful enough ways. Yes, there are the ten hightenings. But there were also ten allomantic metals until we learned better. We don't know that there are only ten. There are also three primary colors plus black and white (which are both important for awakening). Seven would be a good candidate for a different possibility, since there are 7 musical notes (A-G), as well as 7 colors to the rainbow. Based on the 11 spikes that the Inquisitor's have (curious, because both Koloss and Kandra have even numbers), I'd guess that Ruin's number was 11. There's also the 11th Metal, which eventually leads to Ruin being freed. It's also and odd number, and a prime, which feels like it would fit Ruin better. Fairly flimsy, but it is curious that certain numbers seem to occur more frequently in some books than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 The only time I remember anybody mentioning 9 original allomancers was in the HoA epigraphs, and when Sazed said 9, he included TLR. I'm assuming in the Steel Ministry's teachings, there were only 8 originals, TLD being exluded from the group. Make sense? Or did I fail again? Oh! This is where we were having that discussion! Sorry Observer I couldn't remember. I had a conversation on this in the chatroom with Chaos and Zas and we decided that it's probably most likely that you are correct in saying 8 normal Allomancers and the Lord Ruler. My problem was that I'd gotten it into my head that the "Nine Original Allomancers" was a religious term, whereas Sazed only mentions it in the epigraphs, with the full knowledge of Preservation and his metalminds at hand. I'm the one who was failing, like I always do about Mistborn. There's only one last thing that gives me pause. When Peter gave out the hint about the extra bead of lerasium he was replying to someone making a list of beads we'd seen so far. That person listed TLR separately from the Original Nine, but Peter didn't correct him. So I'm not quite sure what to think. (Post his here if you want some context) So sorry again for dropping out like that. Have an upvote for being probably right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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