Nahel Bonding in Children and Spiritwebs

[Highstorm24]

A Nahel bond is able to form in the... jagged (?) edges of a person's soul/spiritweb, right? They need to be at least a little bit broken for it to take hold, unless I've misunderstood.

From what I've read, a spiritweb is cracked specifically by trauma. Would any trauma do, if the soul was sensitive enough, or only significant soul-shattery type ones? How else would, say, an infant, form a Nahel bond except to have been born susceptible to spiritweb cracks?

[A specific example is below, with possible spoilers from Words of Radiance]

Spoiler

Shallan forms her Nahel bond with Testament prior to any (known up to the end of Oathbringer) major life struggles, when she's a little kid. So either she had life event/issues with mental health as a very young child significant enough to form a Nahel bond with a spren, or its actually possible to be born with a cracked spiritweb.

Do you have any thoughts on this? Do you think a child be born with a cracked spiritweb, or must the circumstances of their life and emotional journey make it possible? 

Thanks in advance!

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Highstorm24

[Malim]

It might be possible to be born with the proper cracks in place, but as far as I know, we haven't explicitly seen it in Stormlight.  We have seen it in the larger Cosmere though: 

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

It is expressly stated that Vin was snapped as a newborn by the rigors of a difficult birth.

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Malim
Spelling

[Highstorm24]

2 minutes ago, Malim said:

It might be possible to be born with the proper cracks in place, but as far as I know, we haven't explicitly seen it in Stormlight.  We have seen it in the larger Cosmere though: 

Mistborn spoilers

  Hide contents

It is expressly stated that Vin was snapped as a newborn by the rigors of a difficult birth.

 

Ooooh I forgot about that! So any trauma, really, such as being in pain during your first moments of life could predispose a person to have a cracked spiritweb. 

I imagine then that it's nearly impossible to get through childhood/adolescence with it intact... 

[Frustration]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:31 PM, Highstorm24 said:

A Nahel bond is able to form in the... jagged (?) edges of a person's soul/spiritweb, right? They need to be at least a little bit broken for it to take hold, unless I've misunderstood.

From what I've read, a spiritweb is cracked specifically by trauma. Would any trauma do, if the soul was sensitive enough, or only significant soul-shattery type ones? How else would, say, an infant, form a Nahel bond except to have been born susceptible to spiritweb cracks?

[A specific example is below, with possible spoilers from Words of Radiance]

  Reveal hidden contents

Shallan forms her Nahel bond with Testament prior to any (known up to the end of Oathbringer) major life struggles, when she's a little kid. So either she had life event/issues with mental health as a very young child significant enough to form a Nahel bond with a spren, or its actually possible to be born with a cracked spiritweb.

Do you have any thoughts on this? Do you think a child be born with a cracked spiritweb, or must the circumstances of their life and emotional journey make it possible? 

Thanks in advance!

 

cracks aren't neccesarily just from trauma, they can be emotional, or even magical in nature. For example there are some uses of magic that will cause cracks to form.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

The philosophy that people need cracks in their souls to become radiants overstates it a bit. Perhaps people with deep cracks in their souls attract spren more readily, but The Lopen is an example that you don't need huge trauma in order to become a Radiant:

Quote

Spencer Walther

Lopen clearly states he doesn't consider himself a broken character, like all the other Knights. Do you consider him a broken character?

Brandon Sanderson

I do not. And, again, "broken" is a term with a lot of baggage, let's point that out. I would rather use the terminology that a given person is comfortable with, and let them put definitions on that themselves. Because the way I view it, I don't really view most people as "broken," even if they may use that terminology. What they might have is, they might have certain mental health issues that they haven't yet figured out how to work with that are integral to who they are. But not broken, just still practicing. And that's how I would define a lot of people, but I don't get to define it for those people, if that makes sense.

And one of the things I like to do is to have a variety of viewpoints in my stories, to make sure I'm kind of running the gamut on this, and I think some of the characters in my stories would say, "Yeah. Something in me's broken. You can talk about all the funny business you want, Brandon, about just needing to practice. Something in me's broken, and I need to learn to deal with that. Either fix it, or learn to not let it ruin me." And there are people that I've talked to, that that's how they've described it.

I've talked to other people who say, "No, I'm not broken. 'Broken' implies I'm a less valuable person, because of that phrasing." That is something that I never want to imply. And so it is a dangerous word to use. I let people in fiction use it, because people in real life use it. But just wanted you to be aware of that.

So, the idea that a person needs to be "broken" to be a Knight Radiant is a part of the world that a lot of people talk about. I actually intend Lopen to be a counterargument to that. But people in-world would disagree with me. They'd say, "No no no, he's got some of these things." But if Lopen has them, we all have them. So there are no not-broken people, which also makes the word "broken" just completely wrong phrase to use, if that makes sense.

So, that is how I view it. But I admit that some of my characters would disagree with me.

YouTube Livestream 7 (May 7, 2020)

 

[Ciridae]

That's a great WoB @Nameless

Yeah, like the Lopen, you can bond a spren as long as you are open enough for the bond. He just really, really wanted it.

Looking at Lightweavers specifically though, it makes sense why Cryptics might be interested in bonding children or young adults more often than spren of other orders. Lightweaver oaths are all about finding personal truths, about growing as a person, becoming aware of ones own flaws and working to become a better person as a result. I imagine the Cryptics realize that it's very natural for younger people, who are still developing and growing, to come to such realizations, whereas people at a later stage in their life may already be more set in their ways.  

[Bort]

On 20/02/2022 at 2:29 PM, Frustration said:

cracks aren't neccesarily just from trauma, they can be emotional, or even magical in nature. For example there are some uses of magic that will cause cracks to form.

Assuming the theory of Shallan being Chanarach's daughter is true, could the "trauma" of beng born to a seriously damaged Herald cause cracks to form?

I think it's likely.

[Anomander Rake]

Could it also have been the unnamed Unmade hovering around the Davars?  No immediate thoughts that swing me either way, but a possibility.  Could also have exacerbated any existing cracks caused by other things.

[Bort]

2 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

Could it also have been the unnamed Unmade hovering around the Davars?  No immediate thoughts that swing me either way, but a possibility.  Could also have exacerbated any existing cracks caused by other things.

This gives me an idea which kinda ties into my theory about the Unmade being connected to the Heralds.

Popular theory has it Chanaranach is Shallan's mother, and closest guess we can come up with for the corresponding Unmade is Chemoarish. Neither of which we know much about.

One of Chana's prime features is that she cares, she protects. Take this away from her and you have an abusive mother who doesn't really care how she hurts those around her.

Chemoarish, we know next to nothing about other than she's called the Dustmother. I think this is likely some reference to the Dustbringers, and as such, she is imbued with a powerful destructive force. Kind of like if you took someone's powerful protective instincts and subverted them.

So, how it ties in with this thread...

What if Chemoarish was trying to reconnect with Chanaranach while she was giving birth to Shallan? Giving birth is a pretty traumatic experience for both mother and child, and in trying to exploit the cracks in Chana's spirit web, Chemoarish cracked Shallan's spirit web wide open.

It would put Shallan in the perfect position to be bonded young by a Cryptic, because the household would be filled with lies and despair - a mother that doesn't care about the family, the father trying desperately to cope and protect the children, and the children wishing a million fantasies a day could be true instead of reality.

[Highstorm24]

On 2/24/2022 at 3:45 PM, Bort said:

This gives me an idea which kinda ties into my theory about the Unmade being connected to the Heralds.

Popular theory has it Chanaranach is Shallan's mother, and closest guess we can come up with for the corresponding Unmade is Chemoarish. Neither of which we know much about.

One of Chana's prime features is that she cares, she protects. Take this away from her and you have an abusive mother who doesn't really care how she hurts those around her.

Chemoarish, we know next to nothing about other than she's called the Dustmother. I think this is likely some reference to the Dustbringers, and as such, she is imbued with a powerful destructive force. Kind of like if you took someone's powerful protective instincts and subverted them.

So, how it ties in with this thread...

What if Chemoarish was trying to reconnect with Chanaranach while she was giving birth to Shallan? Giving birth is a pretty traumatic experience for both mother and child, and in trying to exploit the cracks in Chana's spirit web, Chemoarish cracked Shallan's spirit web wide open.

It would put Shallan in the perfect position to be bonded young by a Cryptic, because the household would be filled with lies and despair - a mother that doesn't care about the family, the father trying desperately to cope and protect the children, and the children wishing a million fantasies a day could be true instead of reality.

Whoa. That would be wild, but makes a lot of sense.

[AquaRegia]

On 2/24/2022 at 4:45 PM, Bort said:

Popular theory has it Chanaranach is Shallan's mother...

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think "popular" may be an oversell for this idea.

I don't think any amazingly supernatural realmatic events are needed to explain Shallan's bonds - Lift also became Radiant as a fairly young child.  Sometimes it happens that way.

[Bort]

14 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think "popular" may be an oversell for this idea.

I don't think any amazingly supernatural realmatic events are needed to explain Shallan's bonds - Lift also became Radiant as a fairly young child.  Sometimes it happens that way.

And you don't think there are hints to something traumatic in Lift's childhood?

We may not know the details, but I think the signs are there.

[AquaRegia]

The Cryptics decided to send Wyndle to bond with Lift because of the weird power granted to her by Cultivation, so, admittedly, another weird realmatic event.

As far as trauma goes, Lift lost her parents as a very young child... just like countless other orphans.  Sadly, there is nothing particularly special about that trauma.

I think Brandon's words, quoted above, make it clear that "trauma" (or being "broken") is not the real issue.  EVERYBODY has trauma; whatever is the worst thing that ever happened to you, it is, by definition, the worst thing that's ever happened.  Just being alive is traumatic.

Regarding Shallan, I agree the influence of one or more Unmade on her family could be related to her early Radiant Bond.  But I feel that the "Shallan's mother was a Herald" idea has been pretty thoroughly debunked.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

2 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

But I feel that the "Shallan's mother was a Herald" idea has been pretty thoroughly debunked

I don't believe in the theory, but where did it get debunked?

[AquaRegia]

Well, I'm recalling the arguments made here:

Perhaps "debunked" is too strong a word, but the arguments against it are enough to convince me it's wishful thinking.  Specifically, 1) Shallan's mother was involved with the Skybreakers and thus presumably known to Nale; 2) no 11-year-old child would credibly pose a deadly threat to a 4000-year-old Herald trained by centuries of combat, especially when said Herald already KNOWS the child is a Surgebinder; and 3) Brandon has admitted while Heralds can "procreate", it would NOT be "in the traditional way".  Shallan had four brothers.. I think Lin Davar (and everyone in town) would know if those five children had been brought about in some "nontraditional" way.