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Apologies if this is an old idea - it's new to me! I just read a theory on Reddit discussing how Taravangian was set up to be Dalinar's foil, and how well that fits with him taking up Odium and Dalinar seemingly being on a path towards reclaiming Honor (or something like that, at least). We know that Cultivation had a hand in both Taravangian's Ascension and Dalinar's journey, by interacting with them both directly when they visited the Nightwatcher. We also know of one other person who interacted with Cultivation directly - Lift. My theory is that Cultivation, in addition to preparing Taravangian to take up Odium (confirmed) and Dalinar to take up Honor (suspected), is also preparing Lift to be her own successor. Evidence in favour of this, in addition to the above pattern, that I can think of off the top of my head: Lift's character so far is based very strongly on the idea of not changing, which is more or less the antithesis of Cultivation's Intent. As we've seen, she is changing despite her best efforts and pleas to Cultivation. This seems to set the stage very nicely for an interesting character arc. She has bonded a Cultivationspren. She can metabolise food directly into Lifelight - Cultivation's light. There might be more, or I could be completely wrong. But I found it interesting to think about nevertheless, and I hope you do too!

I don't think think we put enough focus on Elantrian investiture. Intriguing facts Sel is a system with many magic systems, which instead of getting power from the spiritual realm, they siphon the power directly from the Dor (the two splintered shard's power) Elantrian magic seems is the only investiture (we know of) where the magic's power is linked directly to the practitioner's proximity to Elantris (which is curiously located next to a perpendicularity) Sel magic seems unusually versatile even among Sel magics, allowing teleportation, illusions, transmutation, healing, energy summoning, strength/speed increase, emotion manipulation (likely via connection), among presumably many others Brandon said that Elantris was an “oddball among the cosmere magic systems” Keshu taught that “God would come to earth once all mankind was unified” unified, being a vague term Wryn's letter to Hrathen stated that “the time for [Jaddeth’s] ascension is near” likely referring Jaddeth coming up from underground The Fjordells seemed suspiciously interested in Destroying Elantris even when the inhabitant were, comparatively defenseless theories All the Elantrians are technically all ascended at once calling upon the directly Dor’s power using Aons as “codes” so theoretically anything a shard can do, an elantrian can do as well provided the know the correct Aons. That would mean an Elantrian the is the Shard so any Seons connected the an Elantrian are not longer to the person’s identity but instead to the shard itself. So when the Reod happened all the seons could only pull their connection to the physical realm from the blocked off Dor. Wryn was not talking about “ascension” in the literal sense but in the Shard sense. He needed all the elantrians killed so the power wouldn’t be connected to anyone alive anymore, that way the shard’s intent would let someone else bear the power totally. Maybe there are many other perpendicularities on Sel and if someone were to control, or “unify” all of them they would be able to put the shards back together and “Fully” ascend.

In order to pick up a Shard once its previous owner has either been killed or has released it, you need be congruent enough with the power for it to let you pick it up. So, if a Rioter Misting or a Mistborn were to enhance your emotions while the Shard of Odium was without a vessel, would that be enough to trick it into letting you pick it up?

Hi everyone! Why does Rashek count as being Ascended if he never held the shard, or even a splinter of it? I'm not sure if in-world in mistborn era 2 they state Rashek Ascended, but the coppermind does talk about him being Ascended. Additionally, in Secret History, he could have lingered longer in the CR (because of this), but chose not to. Is the requirement for being Ascended holding enough raw investiture from a shard? I assume Dalinar Ascended because of his bond to the Stormfather, Honor's CS and splinter. If someone from Mistborn era 1 could have gotten hold of all atium, and burned it, would he have Ascended as well? (I ask this because if I recall correctly, God metals equal shardpools just in a different state of matter.)

Something I was just wondering about, re-reading "The Well of Ascension". Rashek, using the Well, was able to do things outside his existing power-set of Feruchemy or his new Allomancy, like moving the planet, turning people into mistwraiths, and re-designing plants to handle ash. This is called an Ascension, but it seems that Rashek didn't truly hold Preservation - Mistborn: Secret History seems to make it clear that (even though mindless/dying) Leras still held the Shard up until the moment he actually finally died. So what is an Ascension, and why did Rashek get the "arbitrary, godlike" full-Shard-type powers, whereas Vin burning the mists or Elend being fed power by Vin (also drawing "directly" on Preservation's power) get extra power and the ability to use Allomancy without actual metal, but are still limited to the specific powers? On Roshar, it seems that the Heralds could pull Investiture straight from Honor, similar to Vin's Mist-burning, but they were known for their specific powers (that the Radiant Orders were based on). Is it just a matter of an Investiture threshold? Below, say, 1% of a Shard you are limited to specific powers but above that number you get arbitrary, godlike powers?

I think this story is an allegory to some sequence of events that happened in Natanatan at some point. I'm going to be describing the story on two levels - on the level of Cultivation, Honor and Odium, and on the level of Nightwatcher, Stormfather and BAM (who is not the Sibling). The earlier parts of the story fit the former set better, the latter parts the latter set. The Moons of Roshar are Nomon (brightest, blue), Mishim (slowest, Green), and Salas (darkest, Violet). Of note are the colors that Hoid uses thoughout. So far, for the Rosharan Shards, the colors that can be best associated are White-Blue for Honor (Stormlight is white, Honorspren are Blue), Green for Cultivation (the mist at the Valley), and Yellow-White for Odium. (Voidlight is technically Stygian Blue, which is a fatigue response to bright, intense yellow on black - most probably this fact is a commentary on the nature of Rayse-Odium) Let's jump straight into the story then, shall we? Subtext: Cultivation is cleverest of the three Shards on Roshar. Or, the Nightwatcher is the cleverest of the three spren the moons are most likely to represent. Subtext: Honor and Odium are content sit in the spiritual and manifest avatars, powering the magics of Roshar through their respective lights - Stormlight and Voidlight. Honor has the Highstorm, and a high place on Roshar was called "closest to Honor", whereas Odium is literally on a different planet, and now has the Everstorm. As opposed to these two, Cultivation's influence can be seen in all the flora and fauna of Roshar, and she takes a more hands on approach, if only through the Boon-Curse magic. The reign in the sky could then be a realmatic metaphor, with Honor and Odium always staying away, whereas Cultivation being super invested in the Valley, and personally taking interest whenever she could. On the Nightwatcher level, we don't quite know the nature of the Sibling enough to be able to relate it like this with the sky and light. Indeed, I've been suspecting the domain of the Sibling is "stone", or Crem, so I don't know if it would hold with the reign in the sky. I've been suspecting that BAM is to Voidbinding what the Stormfather is to Surgebinding, and in that case she could be the sister to the Nightwatcher who is also content to stay away and "grace the lands with her (Void)light," whereas the brother, Stormfather, would also be cotnent to drive the Highstorms and "grace the lands with his (storm)light." I don't know what Hoid specifically means by this, other than maybe a sly referral to why Cultivation is training the Nightwatcher to be her heir, of some kind. Yep, Mishim is the green moon, and green is the color most associated with Cultivation, and by extension the Nightwatcher. Take the towers to be an allegory to something else, say... Ancient Fabrials. The Natanatans would, in this case, be leading scientists, trying to maybe autopsy and study the biology of Greatshells to understand how fabrials would work realmatically. The Natan people were trying to make artificial Fabrials, and impinging on the domain of Cultivation - whose system is this integrated Fabrial magic in the ecosystem of Roshar. It also makes sense in a different way, because the Aimians would eventually be providing Soulcasters to the rest of Roshar, and the end of this story strongly indicates that the Siah were born as an outcome of what happens here later. The towers could also be an allegory to a lot of different things and not just Fabrials. If you consider the sky and the lands to be the Spiritual and Physical realms, then the tower would be some kind of invested constructs - the metaphor relies on the same description Brandin has previously given to perpendicularities, something that is "heavier" than normal in the physical and stretching it a bit to reach into another realm. A tower is something that is built on land but reaches for the sky. Translation: I am mortal, my domain the Physical and Shadesmar. The Spiritual is yours. Divinity, yours. Interesting use of color here - why the white pillar? The description is similar to the description of Honor's perpendicularity that Dalinar summoned at the end of OB (to be fair, they're both described as white pillars, which isn't exactly a spectacularly detailed description, but still), but I don't know if that's what Hoid is actually alluding to or not. Also, why would you need Honor's perpendicularity to ascend to Cultivation? Except, the allusion is to the fact that Bondsmiths can do it, and this can be used for specific purposes. The answer to that would of course depend on whether the ability to manifest Honor's perpendicularity was a thing Dalinar could do because of the special circumstances involved with Honor's remnants and the Stormfather. Even if it was, that particular ability could be achieved by other Bondsmiths, just not necessarily in that manner, or by those circumstances. As always, Cultivation was using her Futuresight and her intent/motivation to see how best she could... well, cultivate. Her intent dictates that she constantly be doing that - constantly be looking to cultivate. Especially after holding the Shard for as long as she has, she would be reaching for some Preservation or Ruin levels of singlemindedness. Unlike Honor and Odium, she rarely makes an active play in events, preferring quiet nudges that may yield results favourable to her sometime in the far future. To mortal eyes, this isn't always apparent, her changes may not always be individually beneficial even, and because she uses the Nightwatcher as a substitute, she is culturally characterized with the attributes "loathes her duty" and "lazy". Another element at play here is that it was Honor that was pro-humanity, while Cultivation's own feelings towards them can, at best, be described as lukewarm. Take this from the perspective of a Shard - for whom looking at all of this in the physical would be trivial. Even Odium, who - unlike Cultivation - is actually trapped, can show Venli visions of Roshar from space, implying that is a perspective a Shard could see through if they so wanted. Also, yes, if you looked at Stars up close in mortal form, you would truly burn away from the heat of it. Another thing is that Stormlight infused Gemstones glow, and that perfectly cut Stormlight infused Gemstones would glow for a long time. So yes, without explaining the deep physics of everything, in a story, to say that the Stars are gemstones cut by the finest of gem cutters wouldn't be exactly be an inaccurate metaphor. Take the Heavens here, to be a state that you attain be Ascending. Yes, the sheer amount of information you would parse then would drive you mad in your non-ascended state. Moreover, as a scholar of Realmatics, Queen Tsa would know this. No clue what the Starspren mean though. Whatever these towers represent, investiture is definitely a big part of them. Or it could be taken figuratively in a different manner - the societal pillars and domes of that city could literally hold membership with the Knights Radiant - they could literally be Surgebinders, and thus Radiant. The Yellow-Gold smoke is interesting, as Yellow-Gold is the color of Bondsmiths. The green involved could imply this is a Nightwatcher Bondsmith. The Queen was Pious, which is a Bondsmith trait. And the Shard of Cultivation, or the Nightwatcher herself, is described as crafty. Also not an inaccurate descriptor. They're trying to achieve something by Applied Realmatic Theory, but something is missing. They're missing a clue. Something in their equations is wrong. And here they try to convince a Shard to help them. Queen Tsa asks to ascend - to pick up enough of the Shard to be capable of achieving what she wants to. Whether this is something Cultivation also secretly wants to come about, or whether this is really Queen Tsa tricking Cultivation is - atleast according to me - a question the story does not have an answer to. This is probably over analysing (well, technically so is the entirety of this post :P), but why the Orange? Why a random fourth color? I have only one unlikely conjecture - Odium does appear as the entire spectrum of Yellow to Dalinar in one of the Visions, so the Orange could be him. The fact that the word intense is mentioned could be indicative that the Orange represents something related to Odium, if not directly Odium. The Shard is temporarily passed from one vessel to another. Or, the Nightwatcher and her Bondsmith somehow swap places. No clue if this is even possible, although theoretically this could be achieved by rewiring one physical body from one Cognitive and Spiritual aspect onto a different Cognitive and Spiritual aspect. Probably unlikely, but not impossible. hmmm. So after what was ages, Cultivation's vessel, got a chance to be not a Vessel. Of course, she enjoyed however she could. Or the Nightwatcher is enjoying being mortal. I do not know what this part of the story means. The Shardic level was working better so far. But the superspren level makes a better fit from this point on. I don't quite know the exact mechanics/events this story is alluding to. There's something happening here and I don't quite know what. It is however interesting to note the qualities that are associated with each moon - kindness to Nomon (Honor/Stormfather), and thoughtfulness to Salas (Odium/Sibling/BAM). It's interesting to know that the color of Tsa is White, as opposed to the Green of Mishim, Blue of Nomon, and Violet of Salas. White is the one color common to all Radiants. Queen Tsa broke her word. Not very honourable. It is also interesting that that idea - the idea of her breaking her Oaths, is what gets Tsa to relent. This could be a cultural folk based decision in the story if it is not alluding to anything. But it fits this subtext surprisingly well. Roshar does have a significant focus on the ability to "hear" spiritual ideals, like the Rhythms. In that vein, this is interesting. Blue (and White) have so far been associated with Honor. So this is interesting. The first Siah? It is interesting that this was a new song. This is... I already laid out my feelings on this. I don't quite think that Queen Tsa could have tricked Cultivation herself, and this would be a ploy by Cultivation to make it seem like this, but in actuality, the fact is that some of her goals are also being achieved. These goals could be anything ranging from the creation of the Siah so that they could fulfill some specific purpose in the future, to something like letting go of her Shard for a while to potentially delay or decrease the overpowering effect that it's intent could be having in her consciousness. Maybe both, and more. I also don't know what "loss" means to Cultivation, save perhaps a kind of nostalgia on what she had been a long while ago - an understanding that a life like this with Tanavast is what she gave up all those millenia ago. If however, the Nightwatcher is the one in question, then this kind of makes better sense? Especially the parts where she didn't know mortal life, or the fact that she couldn't know loss. Cultivation would have allowed it in this case because she would have thought it would ultimately be better for the Nightwatcher to understand mortal existence, particularly if she was being trained as an heir to that Shard someday. This could make even more sense if Tsa was a Nightwatcher Bondsmith, and pulled something akin to what Dalinar managed at the Battle of Thaylen City, but different by circumstance, skill, and motive. A Child whose mother ascended while she was potentially pregnant, or something else was done by Tsa with her expanded understanding, capabilities, and perhaps most importantly, Honor's (maybe via Stormfather) investiture. Maybe the creation of a certain kind of Slivers was the point of the whole endeavor, or maybe the Siah hold a secret in their genetics/existence that Tsa was looking for all along. (by secret, I don't necessarily mean lore, but rather the fruit of Tsa's endeavors - art of a kind) Read above on what I feel about this. So... yeah. Had to get this out, though it would have been fun if I could have gotten to this before the Myths of Roshar Shardcasts.

So, AonDor functions, on an essential level, by creating a gateway (Aon) through which the Dor (trapped in the cognitive realm) may pass into the physical realm. The Dor, is a result of the splintered remains of devotion and dominion being crammed into the cognitive realm. So, if one were to ascend and somehow reforge the splintered remains of the two shards, what impact would this have on AonDor and the other magic systems on Sel? Would it still be capable of functioning in at all the same way? If there is no Dor to be channelled, then what's the point in AonDor? Would the ascended vessel be able to provide a fuel source for AonDor? Or would the magics of Sel simply revert to their more primal form before the splintering of the shards? If this is the case, what would happen to Elantris and the Elantrians? Or the Dakhor monks? Etc. Well, thanks in advance for your input.

So thinking about it how and when did the people of Scadrial learn about Kelsier ascending? The other ascenders make sense but Kelsier only held the power during the events of Secret History and only for a few days at most. Was this fact actually revealed in Sazed's books he left at the end of Era 1 meaning anyone whose read them knows it by the time of Era 2?

Might we see Dalinar ascend to form the shard Unity? Thoughts?

SPOILERS TO OATHBRINGER So in Oathbringer near the end of the book when Dalinar creates Honor’s Perpendicularity Dalinar says: ”I am unity.” Didn’t seem too strange, Honor kept telling him “Unite them”. Which I’m guessing we can all agree has multiple meanings. The people, the radiants, the honor blades maybe? Heralds? As well in this instance it is very literally the 3 realms. Later though... I forget who it was, I believe it was Odium... mentioned Dalinar’s ascension. So go with me here. What if Dalinar is becoming the unmentioned shard of Unity? It sounds like it could be a shard. I mean all this is a little hard for me to grasp. What are shards and how people ascend such as small Rayse/Odium isn’t quite clear. But I do believe it is noted that there is an un-named shard. And if you think of how Adonalsium was shattered, which is the oppsoite of being unified, it could make sense that it has been a hiding or missing shard. I sound crazy and probably way off but I thought it could be an interesting idea.

Rather than continue to derail this thread, I'm posting my hypothesis here. Thesis statement: Mr. Sanderson created Nightblood for the express purpose of having him eventually take up the Shard of Odium. My thoughts on the matter: Per WoB, we know Nightblood was made for Roshar, and Warbreaker was made as a way to introduce him, as an origin story. This implies he's really, really important. I would daresay it's appropriate to assume he'll prove pivotal. Nightblood eats Investiture. He can eat Breath, Stormlight, and apparently the Mists of Scadrial. His hunger is not to be underestimated. Much is made of Nightblood, and his lack of capacity to make moral judgements. His mind was expanded from "I am a sword" to sentience with a thousand Breaths, and he was Commanded to decide what is and is not evil. The problem arose because, expanded mind or not, he simply didn't have the equipment to decide for himself what is evil. This entire concept, while interesting, doesn't actually impact the book very much. Nightblood would be a terrible and powerful weapon even without this issue, so it doesn't do much to impact what happened to Shasharra or what might happen with Yesteel. I believe this will prove pivotal. An issue with Odium, per the Letter, is its Intent. He mentions that Ati was once nice, but the Intent of Ruin perverted him into something horribly dangerous, and suggests that the Intent of Odium is, if anything, worse. It seems that simply letting someone else take up the Shard is a short-term solution, at best. Combining it with another Intent might work better, but that's already been done. Per the notion of Chekhov's gun, don't put in something you don't intend to use. So, to what use could Nightblood's inability to understand "evil" come in? I propose that one day, he will take up Odium. I think his endless hunger for Investiture will eventually lead him to somehow be connected to something vital to Odium (I have a few ideas how this might happen) and that he will consume it all, until he is Odium and Rayse isn't. And then, I think he will have exactly as much capacity to understand Hatred as he currently does Evil. I also have one last point to make, though I'm basing less on this. We know that some of the people involved in Nightblood's creation knew of Shardblades and were deliberately trying to mimic one. This is very unclear, but it's just about possible that even in-universe, it's actually someone's intention to craft a weapon capable of taking a Shard by force from its holder. It does harken to Preservation's long-game. Let me re-state that this point is even more speculative than the rest of my thoughts, and I'm including it out of a sense of completeness. If this is proven wrong, specifically, I still stil my hypothesis can be thought of as possible. EDIT: We now have much-more-recent WoB that Vasher worldhopped as a young man. While it's still possible this minor aspect of my hypothesis has some basis, it seems presumptive that it does not. As stated initially, this should not impact the larger hypothesis. (Having trouble getting to the actual source on the AMA, but this link references the relevant quote) Before I get into the arguments people have made against my theory, I'm going to clarify something that seems to keep getting confused. I'm not saying that Nightblood will want to destroy Odium because he will see Odium as Evil. I bring up Nightblood's Command not for the content of the Command itself, but to point out that Nightblood is inherently incapable of understanding abstract concepts of morality. The specific Command itself, or for that matter Odium's specific Intent, are irrelevant. Please do not reply saying something along the lines of, "Nightblood won't kill Odium because Odium isn't evil." Nightblood killed a wall once. I'm pretty sure the wall wasn't evil, either. On the other thread there have been a few disagreements with my hypothesis, which I fully admit is so speculative it might as well be head!canon (to be clear, I'm not convinced myself that this will happen. It's just something I wonder about). The main one seems to be an assumption that the expansion of consciousness one gets from being a Shard will be enough for Nightblood to understand hatred. I disagree. First, Nightblood's mind was already expanded. He started, presumably, with the cognitive aspect of "I am a sword" and a thousand Breaths and a Command expanded his consciousness to that of a reasonably intelligent adult. The Command was even specifically crafted, by two people who presumably do understand evil, towards evil-centric things. And, being a sword, he simply doesn't have the capacity to understand the concept. We have seen two people fully Ascend, and from their perspective seen the past of another man who at least partially Ascended, and we have a glimpse into what this expanded consciousness means. It is not omniscience. It's a knowledge of the history of the power, it's an ability to think about many things at once, to experience incalculable grief and guilt while having enough processing power left over to dissect subtle implications. It did not help Rashek know where to place a planet to make it habitable... even though he himself moved the planet from its proper orbit in the first place. It would not have been enough to let Sazed adjust the biology of mankind... even though he saw exactly how Rashek had changed them in the first place. Vin and Elend trick Ruin, and later Elend checkmates him, specifically because he's lost too much of his humanity and no longer understands love, or the strength Vin and Elend can find in their bond, even after death. Being a Shard, if anything, made it harder for Ati to comprehend human emotions. For all of these reasons, I question the assumption that a second expansion of Nightblood's consciousness will do what the first one couldn't. Of course, if anyone can provide a suggestion from text or WoB to the contrary, I will accept the flaw in my hypothesis. There was briefly a suggestion that Nightblood is incapable of taking up a Shard because he lacks hands, but I believe this is not a widely-held belief. It has been said it won't happen because Nightblood is too interesting, and making him a Shard will make him less interesting, to which I have two rebuttals. Many main charcters die or fade into the background; it's rare for someone to be SUCH a good character they can survive the spotlight forever. I do not agree that anything about Nightblood as a character means he cannot ever fade into the background. Also, I do not think Sazed became any less interesting of a character for having Ascended. Compare, for example, Ham, who impacts Alloy of Law far less, and is far less interesting in Era 2. I'm going to close with an additional thought: We, as a group, know practically nothing about Shards, or Adonalsium, or Divine Intents, or really anything related to the Spiritual Realm. Therefore, my certainty stems not so much from anything mechanical or realmatic, but more from an idea of narrative causality. The author has set up certain elements in the books, and I see them pointing to a certain conclusion. To be frank, I will be suspicious of anyone who claims that we know enough about Shards to say my hypothesis doesn't hold water; we know so little about Shards that right now, almost anything is possible. I would be much more likely to revise my certainty if someone points out a narrative reason why this is extremely unlikely. Or, of course, if further books or W's-o-B reveal things about Shards that are not now apparent.

Say Odium breaks free, and through some crazy shardic tomfoolery, a similar situation occurred on Roshar to the one at the end of HoA, where there was a shard just laying around, waiting to be picked up. Could a spren pick it up, or do you have to be from the physical realm to become a shard?

My friend has a theory that if someone were to bond all ten Honorblades at once, they would become the Shard of Honor. Any thoughts on this?

I just started a re-read of The Final Empire, and FORESHADOWING. I mean, everywhere. So, I thought it would be fun to make a thread about the various hints I'm finally picking up on. I haven't seen anything similar in searches; hopefully I'm not missing anything. Basically this will demonstrate how blind I was to foreshadowing on the first read-through. I will only include long-arc foreshadowing, I think, perhaps with a few exceptions. Though, I'll note that names of significance were dropped much earlier than I thought -- Kelsier references Lord Renoux in the prologue, for instance. Henceforth there shall be spoilers for The Final Empire, The Well of Ascension, and The Hero of Ages. I'll be re-reading the whole trilogy, and intend to update the original post as I go. References to page numbers are for the paperback editions, and as there will be a section for each book, unspecified page numbers are for the book of the section they're in. Mistborn: The Final Empire Page 1, Epigraph to the Prologue: They say I will hold the future of the entire world on my arms. Page 29, Chapter 2: If all went well, there would come a time when Kelsier would want to be seen and recognized. Page 32, Chapter 2: Sometimes, Kelsier felt that a skaa Misting's life wasn't so much about surviving as it was about picking the right time to die. Page 48, Chapter 3: In her mind, she thought she heard a voice whispering to her. Reen's voice. Page 65, Chapter 4: "The mistwraiths are out there. They'll grab a man and take his face, sure as the Lord Ruler." Page 77, Chapter 4: "And the koloss?" Ham asked quietly. Kelsier paused. "If he marches those creatures on his own capital city, the destruction it would cause could be even more dangerous than financial instability. In the chaos, the provincial noblemen will rebel and set themselves up as kings [...]" Page 85, Chapter 5: Yet, overthrowing the Final Empire? They'd sooner stop the mists from flowing or the sun from rising. Page 92, Chapter 5: As he stood, the mists curled slightly around his body. They twisted and spun, running in a slight, barely noticeable current beside him. The mists knew him; they claimed him. They could sense Allomancy Page 92, Chapter 5: And you can't change how much you weigh -- you're an Allomancer, not some northern mystic. Page 104, Epigraph to Chapter 6: I can feel our goal now, can sense it, though the others cannot. It . . . pulses, in my mind, far off in the mountains.