ScarecrowBoat716

We know that Hoid specifically uses Fortune to end up where he needs to be, even without knowing why he needs to be there. I think Tress and rat Charlie coming back together is actually a function of Hoid's Fortune. The story really is his when you think about it. He needs to end up back in Riina's tower to break his curse. His natural Fortune converging other events together to get him there makes sense in that context. It isn't mere coincidence or fate that Tress ends up on the same ship as Charlie. It's exactly what Hoid needed to happen for him to eventually end up where he needs to be, like always. Like a dense star pulling other objects into its orbit, Hoid's Fortune has a way of shaping the stories of those around him. He sort of says as much in his narration at some point late in the story; I'm paraphrasing but he says something to the effect of "my secret power is ending up in the company of the right people."

Shards can't do anything they want to just like that. If it was that easy, Odium would have destroyed the Cosmere millenia ago. Anyways we know from TLM that Autonomy wants people to prove themselves. She wouldn't give her followers an easy route to taking over the planet just like that. She didn't give the Set all the answers and all the technology. She let them try and fail on their own.

No apology needed, thank you for throwing your arguments out there! Having a devil's advocate pointing at potential flaws in a theory is the best way to strengthen that theory.

Wyrn isn't the avatar in my theory; Jaddeth is. Wyrn is just the head of the Shu-Dereth. From my memory it is never made clear that he has any real communication with Jaddeth, right? It's just that followers of Shu-Dereth believe Wyrn speaks for him. So he isn't like Telsin at all. He's never held the will of a Shard like she has. Jaddeth is supposedly trapped(?) underground, unable to return unless the whole planet is converted. If he is indeed an avatar of Autonomy as Brandon heavily implied recently, there are as of yet unanswered questions as to why he is stuck underground. But he would not have a direct influence on how Fjorden chose to act in response to the Reod. He could only cause the earthquake and wait, hopeful that it was enough for Elantris to eventually fall.

Thank you for adding to the theory in evidenced ways! Excellent detail here.

Admittedly it's been a long time since I read Elantris. Why did they wait 10 years in the book? Whether caused by Autonomy or not it wouldn't have changed their timeline, right?

I'm about 3/4 of the way done with The Lost Metal, just at the part where Shai-I has transformed herself into an Elantrian. I prefer reading Brandon's books on a bit of a delay because it gives the cosmere-aware-internet time to catch up and have all the juicy little relevant Cosmere details and references posted that I can look up while I read. Anyways, based on some Sel-related Coppermind wikis I'd read while making my way through The Lost Metal I developed a theory that Jaddeth on Sel was likely an avatar of Autonomy. A few minutes ago I saw a WoB where he all but confirmed this to a reader who asked him. After patting myself on the back for making this connection before reading it online, I've taken my theory a step further - is it possible, even likely, that Autonomy in its avatar of Jaddeth caused the earthquake that created the Reod? This is a more specific theory I have not seen posted elsewhere, but apologies if I missed it. I have several pieces of evidence for my theory: 1) A WoB states that the earthquake which caused the Reod was not natural. It seems implied that the earthquake was purposefully caused. Whatever caused it must have had great knowledge of the geographical origin of Elantrian magic and great ability & control to create a very specific rift in a very specific region of the geography. A Shard being the cause is the obvious conclusion, and we know Odium had no influence on Sel at that point in the timeline. 2) On Sel, followers of Jaddeth (the Shu-Dereth) believe they must convert the whole world to their religion in order for their God to return. The Elantrians of course will never be converted. It makes sense that Jaddeth/Autonomy would therefore want to try and wipe them out or at least incapacitate them to further the goals of the Shu-Dereth. 3) It is said that Jaddeth lives underground and "cares for rocks under the earth." What better entity to cause an earthquake? Thoughts?

It's explained that she is trying to find a way to create the explosion that killed the ardents. Navani knows her best hope is to conceal her true purpose behind other research. In the end the explosion doesn't end up killing Raboniel but it was the best plan she had. The alternative was to do nothing while the Fused slowly found and destroyed each node. Plus Navani is realizing throughout the book that she is in fact a scholar at heart and the pure joy of learning is hard to give up. I don't understand why so many people are accusing her of being stupid. Her internal and external motivations for helping Raboniel are sensible. What other choice did she have? She's trying to uncover a way to defeat the Fused. She can't do all that research without letting Raboniel in on some of it or else Raboniel would not let her continue doing the research. Both Navani and Raboniel know the other is hiding certain things from them, and they both know that the other knows they are hiding things. Still they have to work together so that their true motives have a chance of succeeding. In fact both of them end up getting what they want because they were willing to work together and share smaller secrets in favor of the greater good. Which part of that plot is unrealistic to you?

Ooh I like that theory. When the Reod happened, any Seon that was Connected to an Elantrian became something very similar to a deadeye. My question is why did BAM's imprisonment cause something similar to the Reod among surgebinders? Did the humans experience any effects or just the spren?

Wow just finished the book and WHAT A TWIST! Tyler Durden and Shallan were the same person the whole time?? Sanderson does it again!

Reposting what I said in the other live stream thread.

I think he means like how copper ferrings can store memories but other ferrings can't access those memories. Memories are keyed to your Identity. They can be destroyed but not stolen.

Yeah Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment must have caused an effect similar to the Reod. The Reod caused Elantrians to lose access to Investiture after transforming. So I'm thinking the same thing happened when BAM was imprisoned. Now spren that have their bonds broken somehow lose access to Investiture and since they are literally pieces of Investiture they become deadeyes. Maya might be starting to come back a little because her Connection to Adolin is giving back some of that access to Investiture. Kind of like drawing the chasm line restored the Aon Rao, establishing some semblance of a bond starts to restore deadeyes. Kind of a half baked theory on my part but it makes sense. Only thing I don't understand is why a spren of Odium would have such a large Connection to all spren on Roshar, but I suppose Odium's Connection to Roshar may have become as strong as Honor's and Cultivation's after living there long enough. So why are all the deadeyes congregating near Lasting Integrity? I'm guessing the trial has nothing to do with it. I think they can sense Maya's access to Investiture coming back and they're drawn to it. If BAM is released all of the deadeyes will be fully restored. Perhaps we will see the end of Shardblades that can be used by anyone on Roshar?

Maybe in the spiritual realm you can carry the spirts of items across vast distances in no time at all? In the cognitive realm that doesn't work but in the spiritual realm I suppose it could. It's possible Dalinar put them there when he gave Kaldin the vision, perhaps without even knowing he was doing it. Has it ever been revealed exactly how the oathgates work? I know there are spen that are connected to them but I would think there's a spiritual aspect to transporting physical bodies across the planet instantaneously. Might be something similar going on there.

I asked if Heralds can procreate and Sanderson said yes but not necessarily in the traditional way. Any descendants of Heralds that we've met? And what does non-traditional procreation look like?

Sanderson answered my question on his current live stream! I asked him if Heralds can procreate. He said "yes, not necessarily in the traditional way but yes they can procreate." So that means this theory is at least potentially valid.

Hmm that's an interesting theory. I think RoW sets up that the voidspren had to find a way around the Oathpact breaking because Taln wouldn't break, so they manipulated the listeners instead. But it's possible.

Szeth didn't, Nightblood did. The implication is that Nightblood is so powerful it appears in the spiritual realm. Presumably much like you can touch souls in the cognitive realm without affecting them in the physical realm, you can do the same in the spiritual realm. Szeth doesn't know it's happening.

If Sanderson does a Reddit AMA again and I have a chance to ask him something, this will be my question! I don't think this is possible, Liss is described as having dark hair and a plump figure. Chana has red hair and looks thin. There's definitely more to this story that we're missing. There hasn't been a ton of info on Shallan's mother revealed yet. As far as I can remember we don't even know her first name and I feel like there's a reason for that. Shallan also says near the end of RoW that there are still parts of her memory that don't make sense. Some part of her past is still waiting to be revealed. Maybe what Ookla said is correct, Chana would have a mental illness tied to "obedience." Perhaps she became obedient to Nale or one of his acolytes, to the point that she was willing to kill her own daughter to do what he wanted. I also don't think Nale would really care if Chana's soul was trapped. And if Chana is not Shallan's mother, I wonder which character that we've seen she could be?

Yeah I was going to mention that, if you look at her painting in the back of RoW: That is exactly how I imagine Shallan to look.

I'm probably way overthinking this but did we ever find out why Shallan felt her "mother's soul" in her father's safe? I know the Testament-blade was locked in there, but that shouldn't be her mother's soul that she feels. Unless I'm missing something. That scene makes me think of the gemstone knife that you can use to trap Heralds' souls. So I had the crazy thought that Shallan's mother was a Herald and somehow she actually trapped her mother's soul. Her mother being a Herald would explain why the cryptics are willing to bond her twice. It's a WoB (well, technically a Word of Peter) that Chanaranach has been seen onscreen in the first two books: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/310/#e9123 We also don't know anything about the location of Vedel. So that's two female Heralds, one of which we know has been seen in the books, with their locations unaccounted for. The one thing that gives me pause is I would assume her soul would eventually evaporate like Jezrien's did, and then Kelek should know that another Herald has entered the Beyond. But I wanted to throw this theory out there to get the community's thoughts. I'm well prepared to be totally shot down if I'm forgetting some detail that disproves this... EDIT: Sanderson on his 12/17 live stream confirmed Heralds CAN procreate, although "not necessarily in the traditional way."

Man, having finished the book just this morning I am really surprised to come here and see so much negative feedback. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but this for me was far and away the best book of the entire cosmere, which is no slight against the other books. When you say "nothing happened" that is just flat out untrue. Let's count all the incredible scenes and revelations (this will be out of order, just writing them down as they come to me) 1) Raboniel is a PERFECT villain. Her interactions with Navani were my favorite part of the book. The revelation of her true goal was absolutely heartbreaking and handled in just the right way. It was nice to see her act as both Navani's best friend and worst enemy. The tragedy is they were working for different sides or who knows what other discoveries they would have made together? 2) I also really liked the Persuer as a kind of a foil for Raboniel. In a lesser novel he would have been the main villain but Sanderson knows he acts better as a contrast for a villain with real emotions and intelligence. Kaladin embarrassing him in part 5 was one of my favorite sections. 3) Navani is finally thrust into a central role and kills it. Her arc starts right from the prologue with her abusive husband convincing her she is worthless, and at the end of the novel she finally realizes she is a good scholar. Sanderson perfectly captures how low self-esteem can make you ignore all evidence that you are capable. 4) So many revelations about the science behind Light and Investiture as a whole. I'm a scientist at heart so I loved every part of those sections. I suppose if you don't like science or don't care about the cosmere at large these parts would have bored you. For me they were great. 5) I loved the focus on heroes overcoming their mental illnesses. I already mentioned Navani, but then obviously you have Kaladin, Shallan, Dabbid, Teft... Sanderson understands that his readers come for the magic but stay for the character growth. This was easily his best book yet in that regard. 6) How about Adolin standing his ground against 30 and Maya saving him just in time because he never gave up on her? This was my favorite scene in the series yet. The best movies and novels use setup and payoff. The set up is Adolin bringing Maya into his training exercises and as a result the pay off of that scene is uplifting. 7) All the wider cosmere elements were great. Again, if you don't care about the cosmere as a whole I can understand why you wouldn't have liked these parts. For those of us that have read the whole cosmere and love the tie-ins this was the best book so far. Shallan sending a message to Kelsier that Hoid would "slap him up again" had me rolling. We saw a reference to the Ire again and of course the seon. Another epigraph featuring Sazed. Aviars. Feruchemists. References to Cultivation's vessel being a dragon. Hoid constantly making accidental references to animals that don't exist on Roshar. I mean come on, all of this stuff was great. 8) Moash realizing that he can't fully become Vyre as long as he has a tie to Kaladin. The subtlety of that one interlude where he goes from being Vyre to Moash when talking about Kaladin. 9) Everything about Taravangian becoming Odium. Just everything. 10) The climax of Adolin's trial with Maya revealing the Recreance was not just the decision of the humans. There's at least 10 other things I could write if I kept thinking about it. But my overarching point is that Sanderson has given us such a wonderful universe to dig into. The characters, the world, the magic system, the wider universe, everything comes together so beautifully in this novel that I'm shocked any cosmere fans didn't like it.

I for one loved this book. Finally finished it at 4AM this morning (which is the time I tend to finish cosmere books, after deciding a full night of sleep isn't worth it). The plot twists unfortunately didn't really do it for me because two of them (Kelsier as Thaidakar, Shallan's persona killing Ialai) were figured out by the community, and Taravangian becoming Odium was spoiled for me in the coppermind article on the Shards/vessels. I loved how this book delved so far into the science of Investiture. Sanderson has clearly planned this out to literally microscopic levels so Navani and Raboniel's interactions were possibly my favorite part of the whole novel. Adolin's stand against 30 is my new favorite scene of the entire cosmere. This book's Sanderlanche is also my new favorite. I'll be curious to see how the next book is paced. It's only 10 days until Dalinar fights what I would assume to be El. I can't imagine the whole book will take place over just 10 days so I'm guessing that showdown will come at the end of part 2. My personal prediction is that El will use the anti-Stormlight dagger to kill the Stormfather, but Dalinar will get a hold of Ishnar's Honorblade so he can use his powers to create a new storm by opening a massive perpendicularly.