18 replies to this topic

[darniil]

I remember reading people commenting that Ruin could alter the data stored within Copperminds much like how he could edit anything written on paper, but I never got that impression when I was reading the books. What did I miss?

I remember the talk of the arguments between Kwaan and the other Worldbringers about the prophecies, but I always figured that their prophecies were written on scrolls or kept in books. (I know, I know: they have Copperminds - why use 'books'? :P )

I just thought it was odd that Ruin couldn't see/modify anything etched into metal, but he could somehow edit the data stored within metal.

If anyone could show me what I missed, I'd appreciate it.

[TheBobs]

More info found in this thread http://www.17thshard...ith-metalminds/

In the MB2 Epigraphs Kwaan goes on about how everyone thinks he's nuts because the copperminds they are wearing back up the prophecies that are written down.

[darniil]

Ah, thanks. And I now see the pertinent quotes in the MB2 epigraphs:

"The other Worldbringers scoff at me, for they have their metalminds to prove to them that the books and prophecies have not changed."

and

"And whatever this power is, it can change words within a Feruchemist's metalmind."

Thanks, Bobs.

[zas678]

I think that the information in the Copperminds isn't actually stored in the metal, but that the metal is a gate to the Cognitive Realm, and that's where the information is stored. It would make sense that Ruin can affect the Cognitive aspect of a coppermind.

EDIT- That's where the Earring comes from!

Harmony can read people's minds- but only Copper Ferrings. And only if they want him too.

You know that Ruin can change information in copperminds, right? And Feruchemy is balanced between Ruin and Preservation, right? So Preservation can change information in copperminds.

Now, it's really hard to change information, if you can't see it. (Why Kwaan's metal plate wasn't changed). So, since Ruin and Preservation can change Copperminds, they can READ copperminds.

Now if I'm a Copper Ferring, I can store information in my little copper earring, and then Harmony (who can do what Ruin and Preservation can do) can read the information that is on that earring, and can even change it.

So as I'm praying, I put my thoughts in the Coppermind, I wait, and then I see if it is changed. Maybe I wait for an impression from Him, or I keep a written copy to compare.

The start of a tradition. Most people don't realize that they aren't actually talking to him, but some people are, so they follow the motions.

[CrazyRioter]

that's brilliant! I've always figured Copper Ferrings probably get a lot of respect in the pathist religion, if Harmony uses that method to communicate with them even once and a while they probably get even more respect then I thought.

[darniil]

That's a pretty cool idea, zas. But how would you explain Wax getting the impression that Harmony is "talking" (read: subtly giving sensations) to him? Copper isn't one of the metals Wax can use. Is he just wistfully imagining it?

[zas678]

I think that Harmony is not reading Wax's mind. Unless he's developed some insane new powers since last we met, Shards can't read minds.

But I do think that Harmony is pushing thoughts into Wax's mind. And I don't think that Harmony can push thoughts into everyone's head. Just specific people.

Do you remember back in HoA? While anyone who had Hemalurgy was able to have thoughts pushed in by Ruin (from everwhere from Vin to Spook to Marsh), Preservation was only able to speak to specific people. Who? People who had faith in him. While Kelsier held Preservation, he spook to Spook. Not Vin, not Elend, not any of the old crew, but Spook. Why? Because Spook had a faith and trust in Kelsier that the rest of the crew (except for Demoux) didn't have.

And then when Vin holds Preservation, she only speaks to Elend. Why? Because he has an innate trust in her, a faith that she will come through and succeed. So, she is able to speak with him.

I believe that this is what is going on with Wax. When he wants to pray/meditate, he puts his earring in, sending a flare to Harmony saying "Hey look! Someone praying!" Since Wax believes in Harmony, Harmony can push thoughts into Wax's mind. However, since Harmony doesn't actually know what Wax is thinking, he can only generally encourage Wax (Like Ruin with Vin's earring). He sends him general stuff because that's all he can do with the information he has.

So that's what I think. Or maybe the earring is hemalurgically charged (whether human or animal). Or quite possibly both.

Use your talents, something seemed to whisper inside of him. You’ll figure it out.

That made him smile ruefully. He couldn’t help wondering why, if Harmony really was listening, he didn’t give more specific answers. Often, all Waxillium got from prayer was a sense of encouragement. Keep going. It’s not as difficult as you feel it is. Don’t give up.

[darniil]

I wouldn't be surprised if Harmony were pushing encouragement to people; in fact, that's precisely what I think was happening with the passage you quoted (as opposed to Wax wishful-thinking). And I do like the idea of copper ferrings being able to "talk" to Harmony through stuff stored in copperminds.

Where did Kelsier-Preservation appear to Spook, though? I remember plenty of instances where Ruin appeared to Spook, masquerading as Kelsier, but I'm drawing a blank on times when K-P himself offered help to Spook. (Admittedly, I've only read HoA once, and I'm working my way through a second read of the trilogy, so I may have just overlooked it.)

As an aside, Ruin did specifically speak to certain people using words, not just feelings. Zane, for one. And I also think that Vin's "memories" of Reen's words in her head were actually Ruin speaking to Vin in Reen's voice. (Did Zane actually hold mental conversations with Ruin, or am I imagining that? I know there were times when Ruin was telling Zane to kill someone and Zane refused, but I can't remember if Ruin ever responded to the refusal in a way that suggested he heard Zane's thoughts.)

[Link Von Kelsier Harvey]

Kelsier never appeared to Spook, but he did talk to him. For Kelsier talking to Spook, see HoA chapter 58, almost immediately after Spook removes the spike and then again right before Spook runs into the fire. Also, see the very beginning of chapter 64.

[darniil]

Thanks. I'll check that out when I get home.

[Unworldly]

If I recall correctly, the reason that Ruin and Preservation can only talk to specific people is that they move to block each other's actions whenever one of them tries to. The specific people's belief in them makes it easier to talk to them (I like to think of it as having a radio tuned closer or further from the frequency you're trying to reach - if it's closer, it's easier for the signal to punch through the static and be understood).

So in AoL, Harmony shouldn't be having this issue - it's not like he would block himself. So I would prefer to think that since he's so into non-intervention, the earrings are just a signal to him that someone wants to talk to him. And in this case, Wax has been researching the Vanishers' crimes for most of that night, so it's probably not hard for Harmony to intuit that he would be praying about that sort of thing - and so he can give generalised help and encouragement based on that assumption.
Though, this doesn't explain:

So, he just stood. And pondered. How are things up there in the mists? he thought. He was never sure how to talk to Harmony. Life’s good, I assume? What with you being God, and all?

In response, he felt a sense of . . . amusement. He could never tell if he created those sensations himself or not.

How would Harmony know he was thinking that?

This might lead me to a conclusion that Preservation and Ruin can read minds - but doing so takes an extraordinary amount of effort - and while their opposite was actively or even passively resisting them, they were unable to do so. Therefore, now that Harmony is basically unopposed, reading minds is quite easy; and again, the copper earring is a sign to Harmony saying "It's ok to read my mind - I want you to."

Or I could be wrong...

Edited by Unworldly, 18 September 2011 - 09:58 PM.

[Asha'man Logain]

If I recall correctly, the reason that Ruin and Preservation can only talk to specific people is that they move to block each other's actions whenever one of them tries to. The specific people's belief in them makes it easier to talk to them (I like to think of it as having a radio tuned closer or further from the frequency you're trying to reach - if it's closer, it's easier for the signal to punch through the static and be understood).

So in AoL, Harmony shouldn't be having this issue - it's not like he would block himself. So I would prefer to think that since he's so into non-intervention, the earrings are just a signal to him that someone wants to talk to him. And in this case, Wax has been researching the Vanishers' crimes for most of that night, so it's probably not hard for Harmony to intuit that he would be praying about that sort of thing - and so he can give generalised help and encouragement based on that assumption.
Though, this doesn't explain:

How would Harmony know he was thinking that?

This might lead me to a conclusion that Preservation and Ruin can read minds - but doing so takes an extraordinary amount of effort - and while their opposite was actively or even passively resisting them, they were unable to do so. Therefore, now that Harmony is basically unopposed, reading minds is quite easy; and again, the copper earring is a sign to Harmony saying "It's ok to read my mind - I want you to."

Or I could be wrong...

I like this idea. Not sure if it's true but i suspect we'll get a bit more evidence in AoL. I can't wait for the next trilogy That's where stuff will get fun!

Edit: i need a spellchecker

Edited by Asha'man Logain, 18 September 2011 - 10:34 PM.

[zas678]

We don't see any ability to read minds- besides perhaps through copperminds. But neither Ruin or Preservation has been able to show any ability to read minds.

No, what I think is happening there is Wax laughing at his own joke. He says that he's not sure if he makes the emotions or not- I think that Wax is making it up in this case.

[Musicspren]

I think this is what happened to the Terris Prophecies...

Attached Files

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[KChan]

Bam. I couldn't resist. xD

[Musicspren]

Bam. I couldn't resist. xD

Haha! Thanks; I had not expected my-ahem-Ruin's edits become even sort of official on the wiki.

[darniil]

Well, the wiki isn't etched into metal, is it? :D

...

Huh. HDDs are our versions of copperminds. Neat. ^_^

[Joe ST]

Well, the wiki isn't etched into metal, is it?

...

Huh. HDDs are our versions of copperminds. Neat.

I can totally make it so for you non-administrators lol

[CrazyRioter]

Both Musicspren and Kchan get upvotes! That was hilarious!