163 replies to this topic

[Chaos]

You are totally right.

You are completely correct on the note on standard Surgebinders--that was a gross lapse of logic on my part.

And yes, I was saying that spren were the focus as well as a prerequisite to the magic itself.

So at worst, spren are not the focus, but rather the thing that gives a particular person the power to Surgebind. It's the corollary to the Shaod or genetics. Spren appear to grant the powers in sets of two's. Hey, I guess that standard Surgebinding analysis wasn't completely useless; we could probably agree that, if spren grant Surgebinding ability, they give two Surges at a time.

Then, there would a completely different set of ten focuses, one specific to each Surge. I can live with that kind of a model.

It would seem that the most likely possibility is some sort of Body Focus. It has focus in the term itself, which is a good start. We just don't exactly know what a Body Focus is. Like, "Soul." Other than having a great symmetry to Soulcasting, it's... really unclear how the soul focuses the magic. It isn't clear-cut like Aons, metals, or Commands. However, that could very well be because no one on Roshar has told us what the crap a Body Focus is. There could be some ludicrously easy logic to them which clears up the ambiguities.

As I'm reading that, that seems pretty valid on its own right. I'm making another leap of logic and assuming that there are ten different spren which grant abilities, but if that is true, then that would explain the need for ten distinct orders of Radiants. Having ten distinct methods to access the ten Surges would also make a scholar think, "hey, we need to list them separately, and give them each a fancy glyph, since they aren't the same thing as the Radiants themselves." Roshar is a fairly cosmere-literate place, too, and so maybe they simply called them Body Focuses because they are, in fact, the focuses we are looking for.

So you're right. I'm probably wrong.

Regardless of how I think the spren-focus idea is damaged, I must still say that a focus could be the actual thing that grants you the ability. I'm... kind of tired (I've had four hours of sleep since my graveyard where I posted that last rant), so it'd probably be best for me to go to bed before I make a 3000 word analysis and miss something idiotic.

Thanks for your awesome rebuttal, by the way. That was truly excellent.

EDIT: You don't have to agree that spren give power, but I think that is a theory that makes sense.

Edited by Chaos, 31 July 2011 - 01:38 PM.

[Mad_Scientist]

Regardless of how I think the spren-focus idea is damaged, I must still say that a focus could be the actual thing that grants you the ability.

Yah, I agree that in there's nothing that would stop the focus being the actual thing that grants you the ability in other worlds. We even did see some indirect overlap in Mistborn, where metals were the focus and the metal larasium was a possible way to become a Mistborn. (Though I suppose if one wanted to really nitpick, they could say larasium doesn't make you a Mistborn, it rewrites your genetics, and your new genetics then make you a Mistborn. But that's nitpicking a bit too much)

Also, thanks a lot for the compliment! And I do think that based on what we've seen so far, spren bonds are by far the most likely candidate for granting powers in Roshar, and it would fit in with the (still unconfirmed) quote from Brandon about how on Roshar "what you do" determines your powers, because what you do could cause you to get a spren.

[CabbageHead]

Hi all.

I was browsing through the forums, and registered just to post on this topic. You all seem to have put a huge amount of thought into this particular topic, but looking at it I think there is a fairly simple answer. The one I came up with, which of course could be completely wrong, is that the focus for active surgebinding and soulcasting abilities, is touch.

About the nature of a focus: I think Chaos nailed it when he said "I would revise my definition of focus to: a specific conduit which allows specific Realmatic interaction(s) to occur."

The arguements about specificity, exclusivity, etc. are I think misleading. These are all to do with what you wish to achieve, not how the power is actually released. The examples of Aon Dor and awakening are bad ones I think, because in those the conduit is also involved in the configuration process. The awakening command is the focus not because it is used to describe what you want to do, it is the focus because it is how the breath is released. Aon Dor runes are configured differently depending on what you want to do, but the power is also released through the rune. In the case of magic in WoK, the active effects always seem to be achieved through physical touch. Kaladin and Szeth have to touch things they want to bind; Jasnah touches a man to turn him to crystal, she touches a stone to turn it into smoke. Her lightning bolt is a little problematic, but I guess you could say she was touching the air where it springs into being. Fabrials that have an active effect, like the pain reducing one, have to touch the person they are being used on. Any non-passive effect that I can remember off the top of my head seems to require physical contact. Any thoughts?

[Thucydides]

...and it would fit in with the (still unconfirmed) quote from Brandon about how on Roshar "what you do" determines your powers...

I found the source, albeit a month or so late. Turns out it is not a direct quote, but rather a WoT fan on Theoryland paraphrasing what Brandon said. Here is the link: Pancakes & Fries, and it can also be found on the Wiki in the Brandonothology, right at the bottom under Europe Tour.

As Isabel already reported in the convention section, yesterday we had an unscheduled meeting with Brandon in Amsterdam...

...He talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In l lot of his systems people are trough some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris trough the Shaod, In mistborn it's genetic, in tWoK it depends on what some one has done.

Edit: I forgot the disclaimer, I added the bold in both quotes

Edited by Thucydides, 01 September 2011 - 05:33 PM.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Hi all.

I was browsing through the forums, and registered just to post on this topic. You all seem to have put a huge amount of thought into this particular topic, but looking at it I think there is a fairly simple answer. The one I came up with, which of course could be completely wrong, is that the focus for active surgebinding and soulcasting abilities, is touch.

About the nature of a focus: I think Chaos nailed it when he said "I would revise my definition of focus to: a specific conduit which allows specific Realmatic interaction(s) to occur."

The arguements about specificity, exclusivity, etc. are I think misleading. These are all to do with what you wish to achieve, not how the power is actually released. The examples of Aon Dor and awakening are bad ones I think, because in those the conduit is also involved in the configuration process. The awakening command is the focus not because it is used to describe what you want to do, it is the focus because it is how the breath is released. Aon Dor runes are configured differently depending on what you want to do, but the power is also released through the rune. In the case of magic in WoK, the active effects always seem to be achieved through physical touch. Kaladin and Szeth have to touch things they want to bind; Jasnah touches a man to turn him to crystal, she touches a stone to turn it into smoke. Her lightning bolt is a little problematic, but I guess you could say she was touching the air where it springs into being. Fabrials that have an active effect, like the pain reducing one, have to touch the person they are being used on. Any non-passive effect that I can remember off the top of my head seems to require physical contact. Any thoughts?

Touch would allow you to designate where you want the power to go, but the point of a Focus is what allows you to choose what power is then used. In Allomancy, you burn a particular metal; in AonDor, you draw a particular Aon; in Awakening, you use a particular Command. Touch doesn't work in that respect because while touching is necessary to use the power, it doesn't distinguish between powers. What allows you to choose between either a Full Lashing or a Basic Lashing? What's the difference between Jasnah using Soulcasting and using her Stormlightning power? The difference would be the Focus.

Also, you don't need touch to use Full Lashings, in the Prologue, Szeth is able to project Stormlight onto a doorframe to make the door stick to it, he does this from a distance.

[haiamehs]

Mad_scientist, nice post. i find your discussions very interesting.

[CabbageHead]

Touch would allow you to designate where you want the power to go, but the point of a Focus is what allows you to choose what power is then used. In Allomancy, you burn a particular metal; in AonDor, you draw a particular Aon; in Awakening, you use a particular Command. Touch doesn't work in that respect because while touching is necessary to use the power, it doesn't distinguish between powers. What allows you to choose between either a Full Lashing or a Basic Lashing? What's the difference between Jasnah using Soulcasting and using her Stormlightning power? The difference would be the Focus.

Also, you don't need touch to use Full Lashings, in the Prologue, Szeth is able to project Stormlight onto a doorframe to make the door stick to it, he does this from a distance.

You're probably right, I guess I'm taking too literaly the meaning of the word focus.

Out of interest, where in the prologue was the example you gave above? I skimmed through it again and was unable to find it. The closest I could see was

"Preparing for a Full Lashing, he raised his arm and commanded the Stormlight to pool there, causing the skin to burst alight with radiance. Then he flung his hand out toward the doorframe, spraying white luminescence across it like paint. He slammed the door just as the guards arrived."

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

That's the part I was referring to.

[zas678]

The "What you do" for Honor makes a ton of sense. Honor must "give out" his power by way of Honor, or, by keeping the promises you have kept. Although it matters what you say, it matters so much more if you keep to what you have said. For example, if Shallan said the Words of the Knights Radiant that Kaladin said, it wouldn't do anything for her. Why? Because she hasn't acted (to our knowledge) to "Defend those who can't defend themselves"

[happyman]

The "What you do" for Honor makes a ton of sense. Honor must "give out" his power by way of Honor, or, by keeping the promises you have kept. Although it matters what you say, it matters so much more if you keep to what you have said. For example, if Shallan said the Words of the Knights Radiant that Kaladin said, it wouldn't do anything for her. Why? Because she hasn't acted (to our knowledge) to "Defend those who can't defend themselves"

Which leads into the obvious question: Where is Shallan getting her powers from?

It is probably an aspect of honor, but definitely not Kaladin's. Hmmm. We still don't know much about her backstory, so it's hard to say. Maybe she always seeks out the truth, no matter how deeply hidden? She certainly isn't always honest with others.

[CabbageHead]

Which leads into the obvious question: Where is Shallan getting her powers from?

It is probably an aspect of honor, but definitely not Kaladin's. Hmmm. We still don't know much about her backstory, so it's hard to say. Maybe she always seeks out the truth, no matter how deeply hidden? She certainly isn't always honest with others.

I have a sneaking suspicion her power comes from Cultivation, not Honor. I get that feeling from the way she loves sketching plants and animals, and her excitement at thinking up by herself the concept of symbiosis between different life forms. I know Honor gets all the big scenes, Dalinar's stormdreams, etc. but Cultivation seems at least as important in Roshar. People manage to cultivate food crops in a world without soil, where highstorms will rip up anything not nailed down and toss it around in the air every few days/weeks, where entire countries exist on barren rock. Thats some pretty impressive cultivation.

[Chaos]

I have a sneaking suspicion her power comes from Cultivation, not Honor. I get that feeling from the way she loves sketching plants and animals, and her excitement at thinking up by herself the concept of symbiosis between different life forms. I know Honor gets all the big scenes, Dalinar's stormdreams, etc. but Cultivation seems at least as important in Roshar. People manage to cultivate food crops in a world without soil, where highstorms will rip up anything not nailed down and toss it around in the air every few days/weeks, where entire countries exist on barren rock. Thats some pretty impressive cultivation.

It's true that Cultivation should have a big influence, but we know Soulcasting is a subset of Surgebinding, and it seems fairly clear that Surgebinding is of Honor. Her Memories may be something else, but there are two powers per Radiant, so I'd venture on the side of Surgebinding.

[happyman]

I have a sneaking suspicion her power comes from Cultivation, not Honor. I get that feeling from the way she loves sketching plants and animals, and her excitement at thinking up by herself the concept of symbiosis between different life forms. I know Honor gets all the big scenes, Dalinar's stormdreams, etc. but Cultivation seems at least as important in Roshar. People manage to cultivate food crops in a world without soil, where highstorms will rip up anything not nailed down and toss it around in the air every few days/weeks, where entire countries exist on barren rock. Thats some pretty impressive cultivation.

It's entirely possible that all magic systems on Roshar are the result of interactions between the Shard's, in which case pure honor would not need to be involved to access the power. On the other hand, it seems extremely likely that the Knights Radiant were connected with honor in important ways, so I suspect her powers come from some aspect of honor, at least partly.

[CabbageHead]

It's true that Cultivation should have a big influence, but we know Soulcasting is a subset of Surgebinding, and it seems fairly clear that Surgebinding is of Honor. Her Memories may be something else, but there are two powers per Radiant, so I'd venture on the side of Surgebinding.

I've said this before, and I'm sure I'll say it again: You are right, insofar as we know. Just, do we really know what we know?

[CabbageHead]

It's true that Cultivation should have a big influence, but we know Soulcasting is a subset of Surgebinding, and it seems fairly clear that Surgebinding is of Honor. Her Memories may be something else, but there are two powers per Radiant, so I'd venture on the side of Surgebinding.

A little second comment on the above: do we REALLY know that soulcasting is a subset of surgebinding? They could be overlapping domains. The name, surgebinding, tends to imply all we know of the abilities we know windwalkers may have had: abilities to bind, and exert forces, or surges, on objects. Soulcasting seems to be a bit different in many cases.

[Chaos]

You and everyone else has wondered that But it has been explicitly confirmed to be the case: http://www.17thshard...er-orullian-r52

Josh: Is Soulcasting a subset of Surgebinding?

Yes, it is.

[Tangletalon]

EDIT: WOW, this doesn't make sense. This is what happens when you reply to the first page of a two-page thread. Oops. I was responding to Mad Scientist's last post of the first page. My points still stand, though. (I for some reason have a problem changing my work, so additions are bold).

Sorry about my horrible Elantris references--I haven't read it in awhile, and I am too lazy to search through it (I don't have that much time to make my response, and it would take awhile if I searched through Elantris while making it).

Didn't the evil person in Elantris use a different focus to do the same thing? He used his tatoos, which I remember as not having Aons on them. If I'm not just making this up, that kind of destroys the either the specificity thing or the omnipresence thing (I'm going for omnipresense, it makes a lot more sense).
In your original argument, you pointed out that it would require more than one spren to have the same affect. That isn't true. You can bash this theory with either exclusivity or specificity, but not both, and you tried to use both. Either more than one spren does the same thing, or there is just a whole lot of overlap.
I think that there is just a whole lot of overlap. You complained about that, but is overlap a bad thing? You can use, to some extent, Bendalloy to let you dodge bullets, and you can use atium for the same thing. Is that bad? No, because there is more to each power than that.
My biggest problem with spren not being the focus: what is the focus, then? You've done a lot of bashing on that idea, but you haven't given a replacement. Stormlight, gemstones--neither of them work. There is nothing other than spren that fits. Nothing that you guys have said works the way spren does.
In a completely different thing, the Ideals seems like a good way of getting powers. Then the method of getting powers isn't the method of using them! However, that statement is just a random comment: not necessarily true, not necessarily false.

Edited by Tangletalon, 07 September 2011 - 09:13 PM.

[discipleofhoid]

I think there is an additional key to the focus of a power. Looking at the other systems every focus can be used to control the amount/strength of the power they access. Consider these examples:
On Sel it is an Aon that focuses or makes the Elantrian's power stronger.
On Scandrial a person can focus or flare their power by burning more metal.
On Nalthis a better command can focus the power of the breath more efficiently or for greater effect.(1 breath lifeless versus the other method where they were more expensive.)

To me is seems that the focus is the item that acts as the lens(also called a focus sometimes) for the power.

Considering this what on Roshar focuses the power(or in other words makes it stronger)?

The only thing I can think of that meets this qualification are the Ideals on which the Oaths of the Knights Radiant are based. This also matches with the quote that someone included above about it being what you have done that effects what power you get.

This also explains Shallan's powers since the two Ideals associated with Shalash are Creative and Honest - Shallan is Creative and her spren needed truth to move her to shadesmar. More evidence that the Ideals are the focus of the power.

Going through the points in previous posts to see how this matches:
A focus is actively used in the magic system - The ideals must constantly be embodied in a person for them to access the power.

A focus is omnipresent in the magic system. - See above - basically you must be that ideal to access its power.

A focus for a magic system has variations within it. - There are 20 ideals 2 for each power- by embodying the 2 ideals you gain access to that power.

A focus variation is exclusive in its use in the magic system.- The realmatic effects of each power are different - Note: For this one to apply the orders would share 2 Ideals in addition to sharing a power. I have not seen anything suggesting this wouldn't be the case.

A focus variant for a magic system is specific -This condition is met. By being protecting and leading you will always gain windrunner powers. By being Creative and honest you will have soulcasting powers Etc.

Well there is my two cents. Let me know what you think of this idea.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

The Focus is not about gaining the powers, it's about using the powers. Speaking the ideals is closer to Snapping than metals, it puts you in greater contact with your power, but isn't how you use it. Aons are the Focus of AonDor because they let you apply your power, whereas what lets you access the power is being taken by the Shaod. The ideals can be better compared to the Shaod than Aons.

I'm not convinced that Shallan is associated with Shalash, or that the attributes listed in the table are of that much significance. Check the Orders topic for my opinions on that.

EDIT: My opinion is that the Focuses for Surgebinding are the Body Focuses listed in that table, in case you wanted an alternative.

Edited by Silus - Shard of Flame, 07 September 2011 - 01:45 PM.

[Sir Read-a-Lot]

It seems to me that each magic system has 4 parts, which I shall call Eligibility, Trigger, Fuel, and Focus. I shall explain how I'm defining these terms, then address each magic system we know of.

Eligibility: This is the condition that a person must have in order to become a magic user. It gives them no intrinsic ability to preform magic, but is a necessary component.
Trigger: This is the trigger that "turns on" magic using abilities to a person.
Fuel: The source of the magical effects. Is consumed by using magic. Often tied to the body/power of a Shard.
Focus: The topic of our discussion here, the focus directs what the magic does. As has been noted, the magic user usually has control over their magic beyond choosing a focus, but the focus determines the type of effect. In some cases, the user has control over the focus (e.g. details on the Aon, how fast they burn the metal, etc), and sometimes they have control beyond the focus (e.g. visualization of commands, choosing which metal to pull or push, etc).

And here are the magic systems: (warning. Not every system fits perfectly. This is mostly just speculation)

AonDor
Eligibility: If I recall correctly, only people from Arelon and the surrounding regions were ever chosen by the Sheod.
Trigger: The Sheod. I don't know what causes this. It might be random.
Fuel: the Dor. This would be the power of the Shard.
Focus: the Aons. All Elantrians can use all the Aons, as far as we know.

Dakhor Priest Magic (mostly extrapolated (i.e. guessed) from what little I remember from the few scenes we see of them.)
Eligibility: Don't know.
Trigger: Some sort of ritual, I think.
Fuel: Death, possibly suicide.
Focus: Chanting rituals?

Allomancy
Eligibility: Having a Allomantic ancestor. Genetic inheritance.
Trigger: Being Snapped, ie strong emotion and/or the mists.
Fuel: Metal is consumed, but I think Brandon has been pretty clear in saying that the actual fuel is Preservation's body/power.
Focus: Metal. It's worth noting that some allomancers can only access part of the focus (one type of metal). Also, the focus is consumed by the magic.

Feruchemy
Eligibility: Having a Feruchemic ancester. Genetic inheritance.
Trigger: It's a bit of a stretch, but I'm going to say that their trigger is storing their attribute. After all, if they don't store their attributes, they can't reclaim them later.
Fuel: Feruchemic charge, i.e. previously stored attributes.
Focus: Metal. Some feruchemists can only access part of the focus (one type of metal).

Hemalurgy
Eligibility: Everybody is eligible, provided they're willing to stick a spike in their self.
Trigger: Having a hemalurgically charged spike stuck in you.
Fuel: The hemalurgic charge of the spike, gained from the blood of the murdered person. Actually, I'm not sure on this one, because I don't think that hemalurgic charge is consumed by using hemalurgy. If this was the fuel, than Inquisitors would have to replace their spikes periodically. It is possible that the user's own body takes over fueling the hemalurgic spike. The Inquisitor viewpoint in the first book does mention having to rest a lot.
Focus: Metal. The placement of the spikes would be a control over the focus.

BioChroma
Eligibility: Anyone, I think.
Trigger: Having Breath.
Fuel: Color.
Focus: Commands.

Surgebinding
Eligibility: Acting in a certain manner (being honorable certainly, but there are possibly other triggers as well.)
Trigger: Having a Spren bonded to you. (the Nahel bond?)
Fuel: Most likely stormlight, except that stormlight doesn't seem to be consumed, only lost.
Focus: The crux of this thread. I'm going to go with spren, but not Syl. Different spren. See below.

And that is my overall theory of Cosmere Magic.


My theory on the Surgebinding focus:
I think there are (at least) two types of spren. There are the "Nahel" spren, which bond to people who act in certain ways in order to grant them access to magic. The other type are ordinary spren, which the surgebinders can control/direct with stormlight. This would mean that the bindspren that Syl and Kaladin observe when Kaladin sticks a rock to the wall are actually causing the rock to stick, rather than being attracted to the stickiness. Also, Navani's notebook indicates that spren are used in fabrials. Also, Syl's comment about spren being one individual would explain how a bond to Syl could give Kaladin at least some control over spren.