46 replies to this topic

[Cuaiir]

During my Warbreaker reread, I noticed something that we always seem to forget about Awakening - that it uses color. My brain went a little crazy and made some connections I hadn't seen around here, and I got something new. We focus so much on the Breath and how that fits with Endowment's Intent, we miss some pretty heavy Realmatic Theory. Check this out.

Each magic system has three parts, and each part corresponds with a Realm. Here's Awakening:
Physical - color!
Cognitive - the Command
Spiritual - Breath

The Three Metallic Arts:
Physical - metal
Cognitive - burning, tapping/storing, spike location
Spiritual - power, from Preservation, self, or others

After these two, the theory starts to break down, but that's mostly because we don't know anywhere near enough:

Sel magics, specifically AonDor:
Physical - the act of drawing the Aon
Cognitive - the meaning behind the Aon
Spiritual - the Dor

Rosharian magics, like Lashing and Soulcasting:
Physical - physical contact between the magic user and what he/she is trying to affect
Cognitive - the will to make it happen, possibly through bonding with a spren
Spiritual - Stormlight

another observation, which was pointed out to me, is the order in which magic happens. You need metal before you can burn it, and color before you can give the Command. It's only after the Physical requirement is met that the Cognitive component can come into effect, and only after those two parts finish can the Spiritual part finish the magic.

so for Awakening, it would look something like this:
1. touch color (P)
2. give Command ©
3. release Breath (S)
4. Awakening complete.

and for Allomancy:
1. swallow metal (P)
2. make your body burn the metal ©
3. release Preservation's power (S)
4. Allomancy complete.

again, this breaks down a bit once we hit Sel and Roshar. You're all smart enough to put together those steps, so I'm not going to here.

Another thing I notice as I write this is that in Awakening, Allomancy, AonDor, and Soulcasting the physical component is used up. I'm not sure what this means, but it is an interesting point.

[zas678]

I've got something more on Elantris- they had to be trying to make Aons in order to make them. Otherwise, their fingers would constantly be lighting up. They may not have to know the meaning behind the Aons, but they do have to be trying to make Aons.

Another thing- Allomancy doesn't really use up the metal. It breaks it down, but the metal is all still there. If you want a reference, I can find one.

Another thing on Cognitive- Brandon has recently said that being a magic user on Roshar is determined by what you do (or possible think), not by your genetics. These decisions could be the cognitive aspect. I am also prone to think of the Physical characteristic as being the Stormlight, with the Spiritual being the Power of Creation (or Honor/Cultivation/Odium) behind the Stormlight. Just becuase it is mystical doesn't mean that it isn't physical

[happyman]

Another thing- Allomancy doesn't really use up the metal. It breaks it down, but the metal is all still there. If you want a reference, I can find one.

Ooh, I'd really like that quote.

[Chaos]

I've got something more on Elantris- they had to be trying to make Aons in order to make them. Otherwise, their fingers would constantly be lighting up. They may not have to know the meaning behind the Aons, but they do have to be trying to make Aons.

Another thing- Allomancy doesn't really use up the metal. It breaks it down, but the metal is all still there. If you want a reference, I can find one.

Another thing on Cognitive- Brandon has recently said that being a magic user on Roshar is determined by what you do (or possible think), not by your genetics. These decisions could be the cognitive aspect. I am also prone to think of the Physical characteristic as being the Stormlight, with the Spiritual being the Power of Creation (or Honor/Cultivation/Odium) behind the Stormlight. Just becuase it is mystical doesn't mean that it isn't physical

I agree on the first and last note, but I've never heard of metals not actually being expended. Citation definitely needed. I'll believe it when I see it.

I really like the idea behind this theory. I've never understood why Awakening must require color in order to work, and this seems like a clear explanation. It's a different way to understand how the magics operate, certainly.

[zas678]

Searching the Brandonothology...

Fail. I must have thought about the question, tussled with someone about it, and then came to a conclusion. Or maybe I asked Brandon personally. Either way, it's not for sure.

[Cuaiir]

Along with everyone else, I'd also like the quote on the metals not being expended, since some of the Allomantic metals are toxic if left in the digestive tract. I think I even remember a Kelsier quote about that. I'm not sure how you could break down any of the pulling metals, since they are all elements on the periodic table.

Fair points on the Cognitive for both Selian and Rosharian magics, I had forgotten about both of those. I'm still going to debate with you on the Physical of Rosharian magics, since that touch is necessary for Lashings and Soulcasting. As evidence, look at Szeth's intro where he has to touch the guards to Lash them and Jasnah's Soulcasting near the end of the book, transforming the strawberry jam and bread.

It did go Touch > will through spren bond > release of Stormlight. If my assumptions are correct, then if Stormlight were the Physical aspect Szeth could have filled the people with Light before touching them, willed them Lashed, and then touched them to finish the Lashing. That doesn't fit with what we know.

[zas678]

Well I remember the question, even if I can't find the answer. By 'breaking up' the metal, it just means breaking it into smaller chunks of the same metal (as our digestive system usually does with most things), rather than breaking it into atomic particles, or even straight into energy.

And touch isn't always needed. Doesn't Jasnah Soulcasts someone from a distance when she's getting mugged?

Here it is: WoK page 534

Stormlight shot from Jasnah's hand like twin bolts of lightning, symmetrical

[Chaos]

Yeah, I would have remembered something like that in the Brandonothology. This requires more direct questioning from Brandon.

Obviously, atium doesn't do this. It seems to directly vaporize into power. This could explain in a very simple way why atium burns so fast. Still, it's too mind-boggling for me right now. I guess I now know what I'd do if I could kidnap Brandon for fifteen minutes...

[Emeralis00]

Yeah, I would have remembered something like that in the Brandonothology. This requires more direct questioning from Brandon.

Obviously, atium doesn't do this. It seems to directly vaporize into power. This could explain in a very simple way why atium burns so fast. Still, it's too mind-boggling for me right now. I guess I now know what I'd do if I could kidnap Brandon for fifteen minutes...

But then why does pewter burn really fast?
I don't really believe that the metal does not get expended.

Also, since Brandon said that actions determine power on Roshar, then, I believe, the action would be the physical component.

Edited by Emeralis00, 07 June 2011 - 09:03 PM.

[zas678]

I can't really see how it would get vaporized. I mean there is a massive amount of energy in each milligram of matter, and if it is all expended into "slighty enhancing your senses" then that is a collossal waste of energy. Think of nuclear power plants.

[Timemaster11]

Brandon said that the metals act as a focus for the power of preservation. Is it possible that that language might also apply to colors in Warbreaker, or is the only similarity their physical aspect?

[Chaos]

Brandon said that the metals act as a focus for the power of preservation. Is it possible that that language might also apply to colors in Warbreaker, or is the only similarity their physical aspect?

Brandon explicitly told me the focuses in Awakening were the Commands.

[Thucydides]

And touch isn't always needed. Doesn't Jasnah Soulcasts someone from a distance when she's getting mugged?

Here it is: WoK page 534

Quote
Stormlight shot from Jasnah's hand like twin bolts of lightning, symmetrical

Yes, and Shallan is very surprised. I think that is the only instance of Soulcasting or Infusing without touch. This is significant, Brandon clearly planted that instance to give us something to think about (or as foreshadowing, it doesn't have to be all about us).

[Emeralis00]

Brandon clearly planted that instance to give us something to think about (or as foreshadowing, it doesn't have to be all about us).

it...it doesn't? *tears*

[Cuaiir]

This does bear further thought, and we especially need an answer to what happens metals once they are burned.

Again, part of the reason this breaks down once we attempt to apply it to Rosharian and Selian magics is that we simply do not know enough about them. We've seen Windrunners in action the most, and that is what I drew the original portions of this theory from - they need to touch everything. Obviously, Jasnah gives us an example that runs completely counter to that, yet it does not change what Szeth and Kaladin do. If I recall correctly, Windrunners manipulate the Surges of Gravity and Pressure; we have no idea what Surges Soulcasters like Jasnah or Shallan manipulate.

I do want to know more about the focuses for each system. The Three Metallic Arts all share a focus in metal, while Nalthis' magic (including Returned, Nightblood, and Awakening) focuses on the Commands. We don't know the focuses for Selian or Rosharian magics, and that would help us greatly in... everything, really.

Huh, I wonder if when he published Elantris, Brandon anticipated so many fans all trying to pick apart and understand his magic systems.

[Chaos]

Transformation is one of the Surges they use

[Timemaster11]

I suspect that the Aons would be the focuses of Elantrian magic, and maybe the bone formations the focus of the Dahkor magic (in other words, the focus of Selian magic is the symbols).

[Emeralis00]

I suspect that the Aons would be the focuses of Elantrian magic, and maybe the bone formations the focus of the Dahkor magic (in other words, the focus of Selian magic is the symbols).

cuneiform?

[FellKnight]

Again, part of the reason this breaks down once we attempt to apply it to Rosharian and Selian magics is that we simply do not know enough about them. We've seen Windrunners in action the most, and that is what I drew the original portions of this theory from - they need to touch everything.

In the prologue, when Szeth Full-Lashes the door shut, it seems to describe him flinging the power at the door, not actually touching it.

Fell

[Shawn Hargreaves]

I like this theory a lot. I was thinking along similar lines about the use of color, how easily forgettable and seemingly peripheral to the magic it is, yet it would be unlike Brandon to include something that wasn't absolutely necessary and there for good reason! I hadn't put together that each magic system could have three parts, but this feels right to me and matches what we know about the three realms.

I do not agree about touching being the physical component on Roshar, though. Prior to reading this thread, I was thinking about the similarities between metal, color, and Stormlight:

- All commonly exist in the world, but are inert until activated by a magic user.

- All are consumed when magic is performed.

- Magic cannot be done without them. Vin with no metal, Vasher with no color, or Szeth with no Stormlight, are all equally helpless.

- All can be stored in some way, and are frequently carried around by magic users. Metal in vials or inside the body, Awakeners wearing colorful scarves, Stormlight captured in gemstones or (rarely and imperfectly) inside the body.


I'm less clear on this, but I also see parallels between Breath and spren. Intangible things, somehow important in activating magic, not themselves sentient but somehow linked to sentience or enhance it in some way. The way all spren are identical and have no memories, but then Syl develops a unique personality after becoming attached to Kaladin, reminds me of how Breath can be transferred between people, but it does not transfer specific memories or abilities while doing so (all Breaths are fundamentally alike, in the same way as all spren?) I don't feel like we understand enough about spren to judge if this is a true similarity, but will be interested to keep it in mind as we learn more.