Can Shallan make people more receptive to healing?

[+Q10fanatic]

We have seen Shallan, when she takes a memory and draws people around her, affect people's self-perception and the actions that they take. Two prime examples of this are the slaver guard in tWoK and Elhokar in OB. I believe, and I think I've seen this elsewhere, that Shallan is doing some kind of Spiritual transformation through her art, that she is literally (but benignly and in small ways) changing these people's spirit webs or Identity. I think this may be comparable in some ways to what Shai does in Emperor's Soul.

If this is correct, could we see Shallan modify someone's Identity/spirit web in such a way that they don't accept a long-term injury and become amenable to Growth/Regrowth-style healing? I'm thinking of something like Kaladin's brand or Rysn's legs. Healing and Identity/spirit webs are something that we have seen the end results of but we don't understand the mechanics very well.

If Shallan CAN do this, I think it would explain why she has struggled to perform traditional transformation (Soul Casting) in the way that soul casters and Jasnah do it. Her powers, while drawing on the shared surge of transformation, would be very different and far more subtle than Jasnah's (Spiritual Transformation vs Physical Transformation).

[Karger]

I am going to say yes to all of the above.  Congratulations on a well reasoned theory that makes perfect sense.

[+Q10fanatic]

Thanks! I suppose now I need to do some research and see if Brandon ever mentions if her spheres went dun while she was drawing.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

Thanks! I suppose now I need to do some research and see if Brandon ever mentions if her spheres went dun while she was drawing.

Her ability to make people feel better is more passive then that.

[+Q10fanatic]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Her ability to make people feel better is more passive then that.

Wait, so do you think Shallan can do this without being fueled by stormlight?

[Karger]

Just now, Q10fanatic said:

Wait, so do you think Shallan can do this without being fueled by stormlight?

She does it all the time without stormlight.  We see examples with her talking to her brothers despite a lack of spheres present and a weakened bond with Pattern.

[Subvisual Haze]

I'm not sure I really like the word from Brandon that Lightweavers have a sort of mental health improving aura and that's why Kaladin felt generally less depressed around Tien and Shallan. It steals some of the agency and humanity from their interactions.

[Ethan_sedai]

I think Rysn’s legs would work, but since in OB, Shallan makes a Lightweaving to cover up Kaladin’s slave brands, and then it just kind of vanished from Kaladin, so it probably wouldn’t work on Kaladin. 

4 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I'm not sure I really like the word from Brandon that Lightweavers have a sort of mental health improving aura and that's why Kaladin felt generally less depressed around Tien and Shallan. It steals some of the agency and humanity from their interactions.

There’s a WoB that says this? Does it say if it is related to the Resonance?

[+Q10fanatic]

29 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I'm not sure I really like the word from Brandon that Lightweavers have a sort of mental health improving aura and that's why Kaladin felt generally less depressed around Tien and Shallan. It steals some of the agency and humanity from their interactions.

I'm not familiar with this specific WOB, so I can't say for sure. My understanding was more that Lightweavers are temperamentally very well suited to counseling/listening/empathizing and these things make people feel better. On top of that, I do think Shallan does this type of thing as part of "spiritual transformation"; so these skills can work together such that the line between them blurs.

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

I think Rysn’s legs would work, but since in OB, Shallan makes a Lightweaving to cover up Kaladin’s slave brands, and then it just kind of vanished from Kaladin, so it probably wouldn’t work on Kaladin. 

There’s a WoB that says this? Does it say if it is related to the Resonance?

That is Shallan using illusions to cover it. Not help him move past the issue that causes him to hold onto it. WoB shown below

Questioner

At the end of Oathbringer, or near the end, Kaladin is talking to Syl about not getting Shallan or whatever, and he says that she really just reminded him of someone, who is it that she reminded him of?

Brandon Sanderson

She reminded him of Tien, his brother, because his brother was a burgeoning Lightweaver, and Lightweavers, you'll notice, when they're around someone, that person starts to act a little bit more like a little bit of their best self. There's a bit of, also, counteraction to feelings of darkness and despair, it's just a natural Lightweaver sort of thing. And so, part of what Kaladin was drawing from Shallan was that feeling. I think it could've totally become love. And he's now cutting that off, he's saying it couldn't at all have become-- it could have. But that was part of what was drawing him in.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

Just now, Q10fanatic said:

I'm not familiar with this specific WOB, so I can't say for sure. My understanding was more that Lightweavers are temperamentally very well suited to counseling/listening/empathizing and these things make people feel better. On top of that, I do think Shallan does this type of thing as part of "spiritual transformation"; so these skills can work together such that the line between them blurs.

WoB posted above

[Ethan_sedai]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That is Shallan using illusions to cover it. Not help him move past the issue that causes him to hold onto it. WoB shown below

I just meant that if his perception of himself(or something like that) was such that it interfered with the illusion, it would probably be very difficult to do more than an illusion.

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

I just meant that if his perception of himself(or something like that) was such that it interfered with the illusion, it would probably be very difficult to do more than an illusion.

I understand, but the point I was getting at is the illusion is just a "bandage", covering the "wound". So it makes sense to me that his identity deeply tied to the scar would push through it. Now I see the other thing she does, as going deep into the root of the person and bringing that out. So by causing Kaladin to see himself differently, Kaladin himself would be the one ultimately getting rid of the scar, which then could be healed with stormlight.  

 

edit: another way to explain it. One is just wearing a costume, but you are still yourself underneath. The other is changing the way you see yourself, and then holding yourself differently as result. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Ethan_sedai]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I understand, but the point I was getting at is the illusion is just a "bandage", covering the "wound". So it makes sense to me that his identity deeply tied to the scar would push through it. Now I see the other thing she does, as going deep into the root of the person and bringing that out. So by causing Kaladin to see himself differently, Kaladin himself would be the one ultimately getting rid of the scar, which then could be healed with stormlight.  

I suppose. I just figured it would be difficult since everyone else’s perception of themselves doesn’t interfere with illusions, but since Kaladin’s perception does, it would be really hard to go against that at all.  

Edit:(maybe this will be more clear): because he views himself as having the slave brands so strongly, it would be difficult to change that perception.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Ethan_Sedai

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

I suppose. I just figured it would be difficult since everyone else’s perception of themselves doesn’t interfere with illusions, but since Kaladin’s perception does, it would be really hard to go against that at all.  

Edit:(maybe this will be more clear): because he views himself as having the slave brands so strongly, it would be difficult to change that perception.

I agree it would be difficult, but I think it is definitely possible and to me would not be more difficult than getting Rysn to not see herself as crippled. Both are physical wounds that have dug deep into the core of their being. If one can be done, certainly so could the other in my opinion. 

[Ethan_sedai]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

I agree it would be difficult, but I think it is definitely possible and to me would not be more difficult than getting Rysn to not see herself as crippled. Both are physical wounds that have dug deep into the core of their being. If one can be done, certainly so could the other in my opinion. 

Well, I think it’s different for Rysn, because for her it’s just “an old wound” but for Kaladin, I think it goes a lot deeper than that.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Ethan_Sedai said:

Well, I think it’s different for Rysn, because for her it’s just “an old wound” but for Kaladin, I think it goes a lot deeper than that.

Personally I disagree. Rysn sees herself as a cripple. Kaladin as a slave. Rysn feels her losing the use of her legs was payment for her taking the (in her mind) needless risk to win the contract. She got the contract, and paid for it with her legs. She has to learn that she is capable even without her legs, and it does not diminish herself as a person. Which I believe is what the wandersail will do. Kaladin still feels he is a slave, beaten down, that people will take away whatever he has built at any moment. I feel he also links that with Tien's death, and betrayal by Amaram. Till he moves past that, the scars will remain. So I very much feel they are equal. But I say that acknowledging that this is very subjective on both our parts. 

[+Q10fanatic]

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Brandon Sanderson

She reminded him of Tien, his brother, because his brother was a burgeoning Lightweaver, and Lightweavers, you'll notice, when they're around someone, that person starts to act a little bit more like a little bit of their best self. There's a bit of, also, counteraction to feelings of darkness and despair, it's just a natural Lightweaver sort of thing. And so, part of what Kaladin was drawing from Shallan was that feeling. I think it could've totally become love. And he's now cutting that off, he's saying it couldn't at all have become-- it could have. But that was part of what was drawing him in.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

WoB posted above

Maybe I'm misreading Brandon here, but I thought "it's just a natural Lightweaver sort of thing" meant that it is something they are naturally good at, similar to their skill with art. Perhaps enhanced in some kind of Spiritual way, but not like a magic area of effect they have.

[Pathfinder]

41 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

Maybe I'm misreading Brandon here, but I thought "it's just a natural Lightweaver sort of thing" meant that it is something they are naturally good at, similar to their skill with art. Perhaps enhanced in some kind of Spiritual way, but not like a magic area of effect they have.

It is magical in nature. WoB below

Questioner

My first question is about Shallan and whether what she does with her drawings and the deserters in Words of Radiance, kind of changing them, is at all similar to what Shai does in The Emperor's Soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm, that's a good question. There are similarities, but only so much that The Emperor's Soul is cosmere and is relying on the same foundation of magic. But good question. Are you getting at me saying you've seen somebody do it before?

Questioner

I talked to Alice.

Brandon Sanderson

So you have seen what she does before, but that is not what I was pointing at. It's someth-- No one is going to expect it.

Footnote: This is a follow-up to this exchange.
Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

 

 

Questioner

In Stormlight, with Kaladin and his brother Tien, is there a connection or a reason why, whenever his brother finds a rock, that keeps coming up several times?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So, there's a couple themes going on here. One is just the subtle theme that Tien tends to find beauty in things that Kaladin finds dull. That's, of course, kind of the metaphor. But Tien also was a budding Lightweaver, and he saw color and light a little bit differently than other people did. And he has the same general effect that you'll see Shallan having on people, which is how the Lightweaver views you influences a little bit more how your mood is, and things like that... And there is a magical element to that, as well. There's both a metaphoric reason and an in-world reason.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018) Edited July 24, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+Q10fanatic]

Oh wow! I had no idea those WOBs existed. I'd say those confirm my initial premise that Shallan's art is magical. And it seems even the more mundane conversation/counseling is magical in nature and might even follow the same in-world mechanics; that's surprising.

[Quantus]

For what it's worth, Ive been kicking around a realmic explanation for Lightweaver Memory as a Resonance effect, the short version is the idea that when she takes her memory Snapshot she is creating a sort of artificial Cognitive Aspect for a new object (ie a piece of art), and the reason she she looses the perfect memory when she draws it out is that the artificial Cognitive Aspect (ie a bead in Shadesmar) gets anchored to the new Art and becomes the natural Cognitive Aspect of the object.  In theory, this is related to Soulcasting in that it lets you redefine the cognitive aspect of a given object; and can be extended to encompass the idea that a Lightweaver can use a similar process to help a person Change their own self-image.  I think it would still fall into the same level of Influence as Soothers/Rioters, as opposed to Forgery or full Soulcasting which can wildly change a thing/person against their will.

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/24/2019 at 0:04 PM, Q10fanatic said:

 And it seems even the more mundane conversation/counseling is magical in nature and might even follow the same in-world mechanics; that's surprising.

I think it might be one of these Cosmere Realmatic things that is kind of on the edge of magical and not; magical in the sense that it's different from how it would work in our universe, but not magic in the sense that there is an active use of Investiture powering the effect. I doubt that Shallan is actively burning through Stormlight just by hanging around people and making them feel better. It's probably a Connection thing of some sort.

IE, is Shallan altering the people around her via some sort of active Investiture effect, or are her otherwise-mundane social interactions just more effective at influencing people than they otherwise would be?

[+Q10fanatic]

6 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

IE, is Shallan altering the people around her via some sort of active Investiture effect, or are her otherwise-mundane social interactions just more effective at influencing people than they otherwise would be?

Yeah, that's the key question for me. My idea is that Shallan's portraits of others are somewhat equivalent to Jasnah's traditional soul-casting. Both drawing on the surge of Transformation, but one is Physical while the other is Spiritual. For that theory to be correct, I think Shallan would need to be using stormlight at some point in her process.

However, I do think her more social interactions are quasi-magical in that they have more effect than a non-Lightweaver would. Analogous to Kaladin and his skill with the spear.