Szeth Theory, with WoR Spoilers

[Mikanium]

The person who revived him claimed to be Nalan, but I'm not convinced Nalan would need a fabriel to revive someone.    

He's now supposed to be a Skybreaker, but has no Spren, which is where every other order gets their abilities from.... And getting Nightbringer seems more like a curse then a boon.   

 

 I think Szeth is being used... Again.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Mikanium

[Seloun]

I'm pretty convinced at that point the man really is Nalan. He knows way too much, including about Szeth's own activities, and given that Szeth doesn't have his Honorblade any more it's not clear why he'd absolutely need to use Szeth if he didn't believe at least some of what he was saying. Skybreakers don't have Regrowth as one of their surges, so requiring a fabrial makes perfect sense (this is why the woman in Dalinar's flashback uses the fabrial as well, instead of what Lift does).

 

That said, Szeth is almost certainly being used. I don't think Nalan's goals are aligned with the Radiant Skybreakers (it's worth noting the Heralds are generally not aligned with the Orders; the canon WoR describes Nalan as being the last Herald to accept his order's request to be a sponsor). I fully expect that Szeth will become a Skybreaker - first as part of Nalan's group, but eventually as a Radiant as he realizes what Nalan is doing is wrong (I would imagine Szeth's Second Ideal will be about how and when the law needs to be applied). He's certainly broken enough at this point to bound a spren.

[Mikanium]

He's certainly broken enough at this point to bound a spren.

 

I think he was broken long before this event took place, and if he was going to bond a spren, it would have happened.   There are ALOT of people who seem to know what's going on.. Ghostbloods, Hoid (the entire 17th shard of course), Vashar (Zahel), Taravangian(sort of)..   

[Bloodfalcon]

Nalan isn't a Skybreaker, he is the Herald that the Skybreakers are led by. Heralds were given their powers by their Honorblades. The Nahel bond was an invention of the spren to mirror the abilities of the Honorblades. The epigraphs explain throughout (I think) part 3 how several of the Heralds responded to those Orders approaching them for leadership. 

I'm pretty sure that is Nalan, and have decided that he is the Herald that returned for his Honorblade after reading Words of Radiance.

 

EDIT: Also Nalan would not have access to the Surges that would likely give him the ability to revive someone from death. It would almost certainly require a fabrial. Right now it looks like Order 4 or 5 will be the one to bring people back to life. So Lift or Renarin if I'm not mistaken.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Bloodfalcon

[Assassin in White]

I think he was broken long before this event took place, and if he was going to bond a spren, it would have happened. There are ALOT of people who seem to know what's going on.. Ghostbloods, Hoid (the entire 17th shard of course), Vashar (Zahel), Taravangian(sort of)..

while szeth was carrying the honorblade he was as syl called him an "abomination" I dont think any spren would have wanted him with the honorblade. But since he doesnt have one any more maybe a spren might join him.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Assassin in White

[Rlain]

There is the manner of the oathstone that Szeth son Neturo had.  Is it possible for his bonded spren to be trapped in there?  

 

Also Szeth speaks of hearing the screams of the people he's killed, though I don't have the source on hand.  Is it possible that is the scream of the blade he carried?  And if so, it's interesting that Kaladin didn't hear the screaming when he caught it.  Syl thought the blade was important, though.  

 

I find it interesting that Szeth speaks of hearing screaming.  I think he was bonded in some form, but the spren is trapped elsewhere which is why he doesn't hear the full extent of the screaming.  He hasn't killed his spren, it's just not in the picture at the moment.  Adding to this, he was named truthless for a reason, most likely because he had some of their powers of the and thus would be foretelling of their return, which would cause him to be named a liar.

 

Finally, and this seems to contradict what I just wrote, in the into to WoK, Szeth needs to wait the 10 heartbeats for his shardblade.  So the blade he uses is clearly not a blade of a live spren, it would have to be a dead one.  

 

 

At the tenth beat of his heart, his Shardblade dropped into his waiting hand.

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive, The) (Kindle Location 346). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

Thoughts?

Edited March 12, 2014 by Rlain

[RShara]

Syl is the only honorspren to have come to the Physical Realm, so I don't see how Szeth could have natural Windrunner abilities.

Also, with Kaladin just sorta breaking his oaths in spirit causing him to lose his powers completely, I'm pretty sure what Szeth has done would have utterly broken any and all spren oaths he might have managed before becoming Truthless.

[Seloun]

I think he was broken long before this event took place, and if he was going to bond a spren, it would have happened.   There are ALOT of people who seem to know what's going on.. Ghostbloods, Hoid (the entire 17th shard of course), Vashar (Zahel), Taravangian(sort of)..   

 

This is certainly possible. My comment was mainly that there's no doubt he's broken now, if there was any possibility he wasn't broken enough before he became Truthless.

My current working theory is that what made Szeth become Truthless was proto-Surgebinding, and that the Honorblades somehow interfere with the Nahel bond. They aren't willing to just kill Szeth (I suspect the Stone Shamen are Radiant Remnants, with still a strict code) so they make him fight until he gets killed while holding the Honorblade so he never progresses in his Nahel bond.

[Chlehrma]

Nalan isn't a Skybreaker, he is the Herald that the Skybreakers are led by. Heralds were given their powers by their Honorblades. The Nahel bond was an invention of the spren to mirror the abilities of the Honorblades. The epigraphs explain throughout (I think) part 3 how several of the Heralds responded to those Orders approaching them for leadership. 

I'm pretty sure that is Nalan, and have decided that he is the Herald that returned for his Honorblade after reading Words of Radiance.

 

EDIT: Also Nalan would not have access to the Surges that would likely give him the ability to revive someone from death. It would almost certainly require a fabrial. Right now it looks like Order 4 or 5 will be the one to bring people back to life. So Lift or Renarin if I'm not mistaken.

Pretty sure Renarins order is between else callers and stone wards. There is a line about else callers, light weavers and truth seekers and their link to the cognitive realm. The shared surge that is the link to the cognitive would be traveling.

[Seloun]

Pretty sure Renarins order is between else callers and stone wards. There is a line about else callers, light weavers and truth seekers and their link to the cognitive realm. The shared surge that is the link to the cognitive would be traveling.

 

I believe you are thinking about Willshapers, not Truthwatchers:

 

 

"As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the far realm of spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were the true masters of that realm."

[Bloodfalcon]

Pretty sure Renarins order is between else callers and stone wards. There is a line about else callers, light weavers and truth seekers and their link to the cognitive realm. The shared surge that is the link to the cognitive would be traveling.

Brandon confirmed the entire chart. Order 5.

[Aleksiel]

...

Finally, and this seems to contradict what I just wrote, in the into to WoK, Szeth needs to wait the 10 heartbeats for his shardblade.  So the blade he uses is clearly not a blade of a live spren, it would have to be a dead one.  

 

 

Thoughts?

 

Szeth was in possession of Jezrien's Honorblade which granted him powers similar to the Windrunners; Syl actually explains this to Kaladin. I don't think Szeth ever had a spren, the screams are because of his guilty conscience. 

[ricree]

EDIT: Also Nalan would not have access to the Surges that would likely give him the ability to revive someone from death. It would almost certainly require a fabrial. Right now it looks like Order 4 or 5 will be the one to bring people back to life. So Lift or Renarin if I'm not mistaken.

Interlude 14 mentions that one of the honorblades allowing regrowth has been stolen. That seems likely enough as the method of his revival, though I can't recall any other supporting evidence.

[Bloodfalcon]

Interlude 14 mentions that one of the honorblades allowing regrowth has been stolen. That seems likely enough as the method of his revival, though I can't recall any other supporting evidence.

 

Good call there. I was confident that the word "fabrial" was used, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way though.

[ricree]

At the time, it's presented as a throwaway line meant to placate Szeth. But given what happens later, there's reason to believe the statement is true.

[Moogle]

Interlude 14 mentions that one of the honorblades allowing regrowth has been stolen. That seems likely enough as the method of his revival, though I can't recall any other supporting evidence.

 

Taravangian was lying. He had to persuade Szeth to keep believing there was not any Radiants.

 

 

“You fought a Surgebinder?” Adrotagia said, glancing at Taravangian.

“Yes,” Szeth said. “An Alethi man who fed upon Stormlight. He healed a Blade-severed arm. He is . . . Radiant . . .” That strain in his voice did not sound safe . Taravangian glanced at Szeth’s hands. They were clenching into fists time and time again, like hearts beating.

“No, no ,” Taravangian said. “I have learned this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now. One of the Honorblades has vanished.” Szeth blinked , and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place.

“One of the other seven?”

“Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.”

 

There are seven Honorblades in Shinovar. The three that are not there belong to Szeth, a Herald who took his back (right after the Oathpact was broken - probably Nalan, who likely sees himself as never having broken his oaths), and Taln.

 

No Honorblades were stolen.

[Rlain]

So, the word fabrial is used, but Nalan never actually states that he used one.

 

 

“I waited until you crashed to the ground,” the man said, “until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then, I restored you.” “Impossible.”

“Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right fabrial. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late.”

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1062). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

[Moogle]

So, the word fabrial is used, but Nalan never actually states that he used one.

 

Actually, it's implied here:

 

 

He had dark brown skin like a man from the Makabaki region, but had a pale mark on his right cheek in the shape of a small hooked crescent. He held one hand behind his back, while his other hand tucked something away into his coat pocket. A fabrial of some sort? Glowing brightly?

“I recognize you,” Szeth realized. “I’ve seen you somewhere before.”

 

Nalan later notes that a fabrial could restore him. The implications are pretty clear that Nalan used a Regrowth fabrial.

[Rlain]

Good call, Moogle.  I missed that first quote.

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

I have a totally crackerjack theory that Darkness is actually Yesteel, who took Nightblood from Vasher after Vasher tracked him down in the sequel to Warbreaker, and brought it to Roshar because he intends for Nightblood to be used to destroy Odium, and Vasher came to Roshar hunting him and Nightblood.

 

What?  It could happen!

 

No but seriously, I do think the questions we should be asking about Nightblood/Zahel are WHY they're in this series, and that will reveal a lot about Darkness and Szeth.  Brandon's been firm from day one that he always intended the cosmere stuff to take a backseat in whatever book he's writing, and he never wanted readers to feel they were missing out on critical information by not having read all of his other books.  But recently we've learned that Vasher and Nightblood were always intended to be in this series, from the beginning, before Warbreaker was even written.  It seems like a contradiction, because they're a very big element to be lifted from one world and transplanted to Roshar's books, so it suggests to me that Brandon had a very big storytelling reason to use them here, he didn't do it just for the cool factor of having Nalthis characters running around on Roshar.  They're in the Stormlight Archive to do something that can't be done any other way.  So.  WHY Nightblood?  What does this series need him for so badly that Brandon would introduce a completely foreign magic system to Roshar this early on?

 

Nightblood's arguably the most powerful magical weapon we know of in the cosmere at this point in time, and his entire existence is predicated on 'destroying evil', and Odium is the greatest evil we know of in the cosmere at this time (or at least Nightblood would likely classify him as such).  I do think some of the forces/groups orchestrating events on Roshar, including Darkness, learned of Nightblood and thought it would be the ideal weapon to fight Odium and his minions.  But if so....did Vasher come to Roshar, and they learned of Nightblood then and took it from him?  Or did they learn of Nightblood and either lure Vasher and Nightblood to Roshar or else go in search of Nightblood, with Vasher coming to Roshar in pursuit of it?

[Bloodfalcon]

So, the word fabrial is used, but Nalan never actually states that he used one.

 

Actually, it's implied here:

 

 

Nalan later notes that a fabrial could restore him. The implications are pretty clear that Nalan used a Regrowth fabrial.

 

Yeah I thought so. I was specifically watching for that because Brandon has said in interviews that he wanted to be very careful with bringing people back to life in his series. That fabrial had better be rare even on top of the stipulation that they need to be fresh bodies (to put it creepily).

[Mikanium]

Personally, I think Nightblood could only be taken from Vasher if Nightblood wanted to be taken from Vasher. If it's orders of magnitude stronger then any weapon we know about, my guess is that Nightblood was manipulated into believing it could kill evil better with someone other then Vasher.

But that's just a crackpot theory. I'm glad Brandon added it to the storyline, there will be alot of speculation and discussion about this.

[Derek]

 

Odium is the greatest evil we know of in the cosmere at this time (or a least Nightblood would likely classify him as such)

 

 

 Doesn't Nightblood classify everybody as evil?  Well, almost everybody.  Does he really care how evil somebody is?  Quantity over quality.