Speculation: What Does Odium Gain by the Desolations and the Everstorm?

[Confused]

I keep asking myself why Odium would want to destroy humans. The Letter (written by Hoid?) from the epigraphs of WoK Part 2 suggests that Odium’s goal is to splinter the other Shards. Then he would stand without peers. On Roshar, he has already killed Tavanast and splintered Honor; and on Sel, he has killed Aona and Skai and splintered their respective Shards, Devotion and Dominion. He did not kill humans on Sel (although war is imminent between the Dakhor and everyone else, but that may be from the splinters of Dominion). Why does he need the Desolations and the Everstorm on Roshar?

 

[The following speculations reveal my ignorance of Shard theory. This is where you folks come in. Help!]

 

To me, Odium would want humans and whomever they are then fighting (currently the Listeners) to continue their war through eternity – the “Everstorm.” While Honor seeks to bind, Odium seeks to divide – it is the nature of hatred, the philosophic concept of the “Other.” Who will be left to hate if he has killed off all of Roshar’s peoples?

 

In this respect, the real “Voidbringers,” at least metaphorically, are not the Unmade or the Ten Deaths, but everyone who lives by hatred and division – e.g., Alakavish, the surgebinder who caused a horrific war prior to the Desolation in Nohadon’s time, and Sadeas and his ilk, and maybe even most Alethi lighteyes.

 

But SA does seem focused on human destruction, rather than everlasting war. I can think of only three possible answers why this would be so, none of which are completely satisfactory. Any suggestions or answers of your own would be most appreciated.

 

Answer 1: Odium Hates Humans Because Honor and Cultivation Created Them

 

Odium hates humans because Honor and Cultivation created them on Roshar (although there is apparently some question about this). Perhaps the romantic triangle among Tavanast, the unnamed Cultivation holder, and Rayse that some have (facetiously?) posited is true: Odium wants to eliminate the other Shards’ creations, just as the fairy tale stepmother wants to get rid of the first wife’s children.

 

Without a romantic triangle, this answer is lame and there’s not much to say about it. If you have a different view, let’s hear it. If Rayse did hate Tavanast for personal reasons, other than Rayse’s desire to be the sole power, then I suppose this answer makes sense. Can’t see it otherwise…

 

Answer 2: The Desolations and the Everstorm will Splinter Cultivation

 

The Desolations and the Everstorm will ultimately kill the holder of the Cultivation Shard and splinter the Cultivation Shard itself. But if Odium had the ability to kill Tavanast and splinter Honor, why hasn’t he already splintered Cultivation?

 

The Coppermind wiki states “It is not clear how splinters are formed.” When Odium splintered Devotion, Dominion and Honor, Odium did not destroy Sel, Roshar or their inhabitants. Is there something peculiar about Cultivation that makes the Desolations and the Everstorm a precondition to Cultivation’s splintering?

 

Cultivation is concerned with growing things, and the Everstorm – through the pulverization of Roshar - will cut off all growth and life. Perhaps splintering occurs when a Shard is prevented from serving its intent. But why couldn’t Cultivation relocate to another planet and reinvest there, unless the Cultivation Shard is now somehow bound to Roshar?

 

Answer 3: Periodic War and the Outpouring of Hatred Replenishes Odium’s Power

 

The wellspring of hatred released by periodic Desolations replenishes or augments Odium’s power, just as the Well of Ascension regenerated Preservation’s power every 1,024 years. There is scant evidence for this assertion, primarily the epigraph to Chapter 11:

 

“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”

 

It appears that Odium is the “Broken One,” since the face in the highstorm tells Kaladin that “Odium reigns.” If so, what might have “broken” Odium, and does hatred really heal him?

 

Perhaps splintering three other Shards injured Odium. He took on Devotion and Dominion on Sel, were they were invested and he was not. Now he resides on Braize, another planet in the Rosharian system, but not on Roshar itself. Maybe being separated from Roshar “breaks” him (or maybe he is residing off-planet in view of Roshar’s impending destruction, which has nothing to do with being “broken” – or maybe he is avoiding Cultivation after having killed Tanavast). Perhaps his efforts at corrupting heralds and spren cost him? Maybe he is broken merely because his Shard is Odium, a dividing force.

 

Maybe Odium was “broken” when he first came to Roshar, long after Honor and Cultivation according to WoB. Why did he follow them, and why did he not immediately kill Tavanast and instead entered into the Oathpact? Some have speculated that Rayse was Tavanast’s younger brother (Cain to his Abel). We don’t know why he is the “Broken One,” if in fact he is. (There must be SOME reason why those of you with lots of upvotes become “Broken Ones” yourselves…)

 

But IF he is “broken,” widespread hatred may well be the thing that can heal him. Perhaps Odium entered into the Oathpact to secure periodic Desolations culminating in the Everstorm that will complete the healing. Moogle made the excellent suggestion that the Oathpact required force proportionality. Odium may have agreed to proportionality for at least three reasons.  First, Honor and Cultivation at the time had twice Odium’s combined power, since Shards theoretically are equal in power. Second, Odium lacked Honor’s capacity to bind Rosharian allies to himself, since, as stated, hatred only divides. Most importantly, if hatred somehow replenishes or augments Odium’s power, then limited periodic proportional engagements are well-suited for this purpose (again, just like the Well of Ascension, but on a different timetable).

 

Further Speculations

 

Dalinar’s vision of the coming void, presented by Honor, may be inaccurate. Honor by his own admission is bad at seeing the future, so he may be wrong. Perhaps he foresees a world without any bonds of any kind, in which case that world would blow away as dust. But if the Everstorm is eternal hate-spawning war that helps Odium in some way – replenishment or augmentation - it doesn’t make sense for him to pulverize the planet.

 

Maybe the Listeners began to understand Odium’s plan. They ran to exile to avoid the urge to fight instilled by the Listener gods (the Ten Unmade?). The Listeners murdered Gavilar because, I believe, he was planning to reinstate the KR, which the Listeners feared would return their gods. In this light, I wonder whether Dalinar’s visions (which I believe Gavilar also had) may have been sent by Odium to CAUSE another war between humans and the Listeners.

 

The real war against Odium may be for the peoples of Roshar to find peace among themselves. When Honor says to Danilar “unite them” (if it IS Honor), he may be speaking in the context of the KR, but his message is much broader than them or the Alethi. He means EVERYONE on Roshar must unite peacefully to defeat Odium.

 

The pivotal characters may be Kaladin (not Dalinar) and Eshonai. They are the ones from their respective races/cultures who desire peace and honor – Dalinar just wants to end the War of Reckoning on any terms that will permit the Alethi to return to Alethkar and reunite the kingdom. Kaladin and Eshonai, however, each respect the other’s culture and do not want to fight. How ironic (and unlikely) if these – the greatest fighters from their respective sides – should end up facing each other as the two champions…and then make peace! (And perhaps the second five book series will be about Odium turning to a war between another race and humans, or among humans…)

 

Just some highly speculative thoughts, each with many holes... What DOES Odium gain by the Desolations and the Everstorm?

[AerionBFII]

I give you an up vote just for the sheer amount of time it must have taken you to type this and research your theory! I commend you

 

 

 

“ Old friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given. I realize that you are probably still angry. That is pleasant to know. Much as your perpetual health, I have come to rely upon your dissatisfaction with me. It is one of the cosmere's great constants, I should think. 
Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say. You do not agree with my quest. I understand that, so much as it is possible to understand someone with whom I disagree so completely. Might I be quite frank? Before, you asked why I was so concerned. It is for the following reason: Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met. He holds the most frightening and terrible of all the Shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited. One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say. In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aone and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse. 
You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true. Neither point makes the things I have written to you untrue. I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me. If anything I have said makes a glimmer of sense to you, I trust that you'll call them off. Or maybe you could astound me and ask them to do something productive for once. For I have never been dedicated to a more important purpose, and the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here. I ask again. Support me. Do not stand aside and let disaster consume more lives. I've never begged you for something before, old friend. 
I do so now.”

—The Letter

 

This is the mystery Letter from The Way Of Kings i believe it was written by Hoid.

I heard that Hoid and Rayse were once good friends but the way he describes him here?

This is what somebody very close to him describes him as, i simply think think Rayse enjoys destruction and that is magnified by having The Odium shard like how Ati was slowly changed from being a good person and influenced by the Ruin Shard. I think it will only magnify the evil inside himself.

 

What i personally beleive is Rayse wants to splinter the other Shardholders and Dominate/ destroy the Cosmere.

[Swimmingly]

I'm guessing that Rayse was a manipulative bastard before Odium. The kind that you can be good friends with and yet still be extremely uncomfortable around when they start acting up. One day, he crossed the line. Then he took for himself the power of pure hatred. These things can alienate your friends, even magnificent bastards like Hoid himself.

[hoser]

{speculation}

Apparently Shards operate off a finite power base.  To have influence on a planet involves "investing" part of that base.  Further, an agreement between Shards (which I believe the Oathpact is) can really only be anchored by a similar investment.  This leaves Odium tied to the Rosharian system.  If he leaves the system, he leaves that power behind. 

While he might derive some gratification from torturing the Rosharian inhabitants, he's got bigger fish to fry.  He wants to finish off Cultivation and liquidate his investment in the Rosharian system so he can move on to splintering the remaining Shards with all his power.  

I believe the Desolations were a struggle for dominance on Roshar constrained by the Oathpact which Odium always lost.

With Honor gone and Taln returned, presumably Odium will not be as constrained by the Oathpact, hence the Everstorm. 

Somehow the Everstorm must advance Odium's goals of splintering Cultivation and deinvesting from Roshar. 

It is worth noting that we are seeing the viewpoint of a long-dead being who had limited prescience and Odium/Rayse was "crafty" and "dangerous".  Odium's plans may well differ from Tanavast's thoughts about them.  

{/speculation}

 

 

Interview: Dec 15th, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

Question

So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers, why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level.

QUESTION

So by his nature, he can't combine?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won't.

 

[Dros]

 

 

Who will be left to hate if he has killed off all of Roshar’s peoples?

 

I've wrestled with this concept myself. I think WEZ and the others are basically on it. The shard itself has corrupted Rayse, who was already predisposed for such corruption it seems. A corrupt mind can do some things that aren't in any way beneficial, even to the instigator.

 

-or-

 

One theory that was tossed around, but generally not accepted was:

 

Odium isn't the one who wants the Everstorm to wipe out humanity and we haven't actually seen the big baddie for SA yet. 

[AerionBFII]

I'm guessing that Rayse was a manipulative bastard before Odium. The kind that you can be good friends with and yet still be extremely uncomfortable around when they start acting up. One day, he crossed the line. Then he took for himself the power of pure hatred. These things can alienate your friends, even magnificent bastards like Hoid himself.

Yeah or he was just in the closet about it, like secretly evil 

[Confused]

Thanks for your thoughts, good responses all. But it seems to me that merely being "evil," "crafty," "loathesome," "manipulative" or "dangerous" are not sufficient reasons for destroying humanity and Roshar itself. Nor do I buy the "liquidating his investment" in Roshar theory. More specifically:

 

1. I think it's too simple to say Odium is "evil" and therefore wants to destroy humanity. Can the essence of hatred be "evil"? Can a moral judgment be associated with hatred? Evil people may hate, but so do good people - it is simply an emotion. Because I think that Odium, despite concentrating Rayse's "loathsome" character, would not be "evil," even if Odium wishes to remain pure in his hatefulness without altering his character by combining with other Shards. If the Letter writer is correct, then Odium's greatest defect is ambition - to be the sole Cosmere Shard - not hatred. He has no more reason to hate humans than any other thing in the Cosmere, unless he hates all life everywhere (like the dark sphere in "The Fifth Element)." But that has not been hinted at yet.

 

2. And there is a question whether the Letter writer (whom we assume is Hoid) is correct. On the thread where Brandon revealed that Hoid and Rayse were once friends, someone suggested that a foiled friendship could cause each former friend to malign the other's character. We don't know who was in the wrong here. Maybe Hoid wanted Rayse's Shard, but Rayse took it first, using legitimate means. Hoid may simply be jealous.

 

3. I like hoser's suggestion that Odium must "liquidate his investment" in Roshar to maintain his power before moving on to challenge the other Shards. But he didn't need that additional power during his "brief visit" to Sel to splinter Dominion and Devotion. Why would he need it now?

 

So I'm still Confused...

[Dros]

It's my understanding that WoB stated Shardic Intent was focused on the people of a world not necessarily focused on the Shard Holder themselves. However:

 

we know Preservation was unable to destroy Ruin because he had internalized the Shard's Intent. Vin, not having held the Shard as long, was not yet bent by the Shard's Intent and was able to consciously sacrifice herself.

 

So it's not beyond precedence that Rayse might have internalized the hate inherent in Odium's Intent. Putting events into motion that will cause people to hate seems to be following the Intent of Odium. Killing massive amounts of people would probably make them hate, as well.

 

Whether Odium is evil? It's not the hatred, per se, that makes us think Odium is evil. It's his actions. Causing mass suffering to satisfy one's own whims, to me, is evil (profoundly immoral and malevolent).

 

I actually like the liquidating his investment in Roshar theory, though. Mostly because it helps rectify the original problem of having no one on Roshar to hate each other. But to answer #3's question, there's something out there much more powerful than Dominion or Devotion. If Odium wants to win without picking up another Shard, he's gonna need to be at full strength and be quite crafty. 

[Confused]

Thank you, Dros. I agree that Odium by now has probably internalized his Shard's hateful intent. His refusal to combine with the Shards he splintered - which according to the quoted WoB would change his nature - shows hatred's single-minded focus and unwillingness to bend or moderate. I further agree (and so asserted in my OP) that he WANTS to "put[] events into motion that will cause people to hate...."

 

If that's all Odium did - ongoing Desolations causing hatefulness - that would make sense to me. But to eradicate the haters and the planet they live on seems to go beyond mere hatefulness. The explanation others gave for this further step was that Odium was "evil." Personally I don't think hatefulness is evil by itself. Odium's plan to commit "planetcide" (is there a word for this? - I keep imagining Krypton imploding or the lines from Yeats' "The Second Coming": "Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world"), whether evil or not, seems counter-productive if his goal is to foster hatefulness. In any event, I don't think this plan stems from a mere "whim."

 

I just feel that there is something else going on here, something we don't know about yet. Hence, the speculations...The best evidence, as stated in my OP and my follow up post, is that he didn't destroy Sel or its population when he splintered Dominion and Devotion. What is different about Roshar?

 

Finally, Harmony is indeed more powerful than Odium, since Sazed holds two Shards, not just one. Destroying Roshar won't cure this deficiency; being "crafty" may...

[Colby Jack]

I'd take the letter with a grain of salt. The author, whoever he is, obviously holds a grudge. I've known a few people that I'd call "the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met", but truth be told, they were actually somewhat decent with only limited ability to destroy the world. But in my mind, they were the absolute worst.

Anywho, I'm going to go against everyone here.

The letter specifically calls out Rayse for his unpleasantness, but I like to think that the author only met him after he became Odium. Instead, wouldn't it add more depth/flavor to the whole conflict if Rayse turns out to be the exact opposite of who he is now when he took up the Shard of Odium? That regardless of his true nature, even if he used to love, he is now forced to hate, free-will/reason be damned. After all, if Odium just turns out to be the true avatar of all evil with no dimension other than that, I think the last Cosmere books will feature an awfully boring villain... unless someone decides to pull a Sazed!

 

As for the whole Odium vs Harmony... There are plenty of ways to destroy a Eunuch. Sazed is probably very self-concious over the fact that no matter how much power he has, he will never be able to grow a manly beard! Seriously though, does Harmony even have the capability to fight? I mean, at all? Isn't fighting against the nature of his shard? Furthermore, even if Harmony can fight, I doubt he will until it's too late. I predict that Mr. Pacifist won't act until half the cosmere is already in flames. No, the man who'll save everyone is Hoid!

[Dros]

 

 

The best evidence, as stated in my OP and my follow up post, is that he didn't destroy Sel or its population when he splintered Dominion and Devotion. What is different about Roshar?

 

Really good point and I agree, I can't figure that one out. I also agree that hatefulness in itself isn't evil and destroying everything would not further Odium's Intent. So---maybe there is another big bad we haven't seen--or--is it possible for a Shard Holder to go insane? Maybe losing so much made him rage, like the kid who can't take losing a CoD game. I don't know. But I agree something doesn't fit.

 

 

 

The letter specifically calls out Rayse for his unpleasantness, but I like to think that the author only met him after he became Odium. 

 

WoB: Hoid wrote the letter and Hoid and Rayse were buds.

 

I do think the inability to grow a beard would be an awful thing to bear, though. OTOH, Sazed went Hulk a few times in his life and he did give Wax a chestful of weapons to do some major damage on his enemies, so I don't think he's a total pacifist.

[Moogle]

Thank you, Dros. I agree that Odium by now has probably internalized his Shard's hateful intent. His refusal to combine with the Shards he splintered - which according to the quoted WoB would change his nature - shows hatred's single-minded focus and unwillingness to bend or moderate.

 

This may be something of a tangent, but I disagree heavily here. Picking up an extra Shard is essentially killing yourself. You'd be changing yourself so drastically by picking up another Shard that I can't imagine very many people in the Cosmere picking up multiple Shards. I don't think this has to do with Odium's Intent at all. He just doesn't hate himself enough to want to change.

 

(Then again, I also feel that a majority of people who knew what picking up a Shard would do to your personality would also refuse to do so unless the Intent matched their personality very well, so your mileage may vary. I think that a person where the Intent matched their personality would still become a mockery of themself, though. I am reasonably confident this is why Hoid has no particular desire to hold any Shards.)

Edited March 2, 2014 by Moogle

[Confused]

WOW, Moogle!! What an interesting take on human nature! You think most people would turn down the chance to hold God-like power simply because their personality would too drastically change - "essentially killing [themselves]." Even in our world, Lord Acton's observation that "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" doesn't deter too many people from seeking power. I doubt such prior knowedge would stop many in the Cosmere from embracing a Shard if offered to them.

 

More the case if one could hold multiple Shards. Whatever fears one may have about concentrating one's personality around a single Intent lessen with the leavening effect of the second, or third, or fourth Shards' Intents. Because Ruin and Preservation were directly opposite, combined they produced Harmony - how nice! Who wouldn't choose that?

 

And if other Shards are not directly polar, they would still have an off-setting effect. Honor and Odium combined, hatred with honor? It almost sounds like the Geneva Conventions...hating your enemy but treating them humanely. Or Devotion and Dominion - the benign dictator who is devoted to his people. (Let's assume that with Shardal Intents ideal conduct actually wins out over practical implementation.)

 

That is why I conclude that Odium's specific Intent - the divisive force of hatred - led him to decline dilution from other Shards. Hatred by its nature just doesn't combine.