[OB] Pull and Push of Surges

[DiamondMind]

Credit to u/Glamdring804 on Reddit for originally thinking of this idea.

There seem to have been a variety of discrepancies for the Surges that have appeared so far. Some have multiple uses, while others seem to only have one. Some orders can access a Surge strongly, others weakly or not at all. I propose that each Surge can actually be used in two forms, either as a Push or a Pull. In addition, each Order of Knights Radiant has a Strength in either the pull or push of the Surge. For example, Windrunners have a Strength in the Pull of the Gravity in order to change the gravity of an object, which is why Kaladin can do it unconsciously and uses such little Stormlight doing so, while Skybreakers can immediately use the Basic Lashing.

In addition, I think beyond the inherent combined passive ability that each Order gets, like Kaladin Strength of Squires, each Order can also combine the Surges actively. Now this is much more speculative and has more holes in it. Jasnah can Soulcast at a distance and, as demonstrated at the Battle of Thaylen City, spread soulcasting among touching targets. Shallan can transform a sentient being's perception of itself through the Spiritual aspects of Illumination and Transformation. I don't think we've seen other orders combine their Surges in such a manner yet.

Below is a list of the two uses of each Surge. The name used in the text is in parenthesis. The pull and push could be switched, I wasn't quite sure how to decide each one. Maybe it should be organized that each order has the Strength for a Pull of one Surge and a Push on another?

Surge	Pull	Push
Adhesion	Change pressure a target exerts (Full Lashing)	Change pressure in an area
Gravity	Change the inherit gravity of the target (Reverse Lashing)	Change gravity acting on the object (Basic Lashing)
Division	Divide an object on a molecular level	?
Abrasion	Change the friction coefficient of the target	?
Progression	Make the target as it should be (ReGrowth)	Make the target what it could be (Growth)
Illumination	See the target as it is (Truthwatching)	Change how the target is perceived (Lightweaving)
Transformation	?	Change how target knows itself (Soulcasting)
Transportation	Change the target's location and momentum	Change the targets Realm
Cohesion	?	?
Tension	Combine two objects one a molecular level	?

 

 

Also mods, it would be nice if we could have a table function or at least a tab button? Pretty please?

Edited November 18, 2017 by DiamondMind

[the winter system]

Makes sense. 

[Leyrann]

I like the idea, but I don't think it would hold up. I would argue that the Full Lashing is actually a reduction in pressure between two objects, creating a vacuum to force two objects to stay attached to one another, which would mean that the core of a pull and a push would be the same. Similarly, I would argue that a Basic Lashing changes the user's gravity, while a Reverse Lashing changes someone else's gravity (hence why it's called a Reverse Lashing). As for Progression, we know by WoB that healing is filtered through the Cognitive Realm by how one sees him/herself, which makes it hard to "make the target what it could be". With Illumination, we haven't actually seen your proposal for the pull, and the same holds for Transportation (your example would make Transportation's pull the same as Gravitation's pull, by the way). If you look at it that way, each Surge actually has only one way in which it works.

I do want to say though, that I really believe there are ways to categorize the Surges, and it is something I am very much working on myself. I just don't think that this is the way.

[DiamondMind]

@Leyrann, I believe you have some key concepts wrong in your rebuttal.

The Full Lashing is when an object is infused with Stormlight, making all objects stick to it, like when Kaladin put Stormlight on the ground during the test fight at the beginning of WoR. And your descriptions of the Basic and Reverse Lashings directly contradict the Ars Arcanum, and also don't make sense. A Reverse Lashing, in slightly scientific terms, gives an object mass in the way other objects act toward it, which is very different from giving an object a different gravitational vector with a Basic Lashing.

I don't understand your objection to Progression. All I did was give a description to the two types of Progression already known, Growth and Regrowth. I actually think taht's one of the strongest Surges to fit the theory.

Illumination I put both up. Shallan does see some things she should not in her sketches, like the sailors coming escaping from the sea in WoR and the pit in OB, not to mention the Cryptics. This also fits with @FeatherWriter theory that since Glys is corrupted (or "Elevated) his Surge is twisted in a voidish nature.

Transportation's pull is extremely different from Gravitation's. If you reread Jasnah's fight at the end of Oathbringer, you see her do some things which make so sense with what we know of Transformation and Transportation so far:

Quote

 

The first soldier swung his sword at her. Jasnah ducked the weapon, then shoved her hand against him, throwing him backward. He crystallized in the air, slamming into the next man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, knocking him back, as if the full force of Jasnah’s shove had transferred to him. He crystallized a moment later.

...

A soldier with red eyes suddenly hurtled through the air overhead. Adolin ducked, worried about Fused, but it was an ordinary soldier. The unfortunate man crashed into a rooftop. What on Roshar?

As they approached the end of the alleyway, another body smashed into the wall right by the opening. Gripping his Shardblade, Adolin peeked around the corner, expecting to find another stone monster like the one that had climbed into the Ancient Ward.

Instead, he found only Jasnah Kholin, looking completely nonplussed. A glow faded around her, different from the smoke of her Stormlight. Like geometric shapes outlining her

So I think I'm still pretty accurate, unless there is something you see that I don't

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, DiamondMind said:

The Full Lashing is when an object is infused with Stormlight, making all objects stick to it, like when Kaladin put Stormlight on the ground during the test fight at the beginning of WoR. And your descriptions of the Basic and Reverse Lashings directly contradict the Ars Arcanum, and also don't make sense. A Reverse Lashing, in slightly scientific terms, gives an object mass in the way other objects act toward it, which is very different from giving an object a different gravitational vector with a Basic Lashing.

You're right. I totally messed up the Lashings. And that while I've been working with them so much recently lol... I still believe the Full Lashing is related to Air Pressure though. How else is something related to Pressure going to stick to something else? Pressure is, after all, a very blunt force compared to molecular scale. On a molecular level, pressure doesn't even matter. At all. If you would want to bind objects together on a molecular level, you'd need to create molecular bonds (this is what adhesion does in real life, by the way, but Brandon seems to have ignored real life chemistry when naming the Surges). If you want to use pressure, you can only do it through the pressure of the air in between (or not in between) the objects. That's simply the only way you're getting a solid to do anything special using pressure.

5 minutes ago, DiamondMind said:

I don't understand your objection to Progression. All I did was give a description to the two types of Progression already known, Growth and Regrowth. I actually think taht's one of the strongest Surges to fit the theory.

My objection is two-fold. First, do we actually know, as in, have we seen on-screen, that Growth and Regrowth are not actually the same? And second, we know that healing in the Cosmere is filtered through how an object or person views it/him/herself (what the WoB is about), which means you cannot use it to make someone what that person is not, even if it is what that person could be.

Having said that, I could see Growth being quite literally that - stimulating the growth of plants. I think the difference there, however, is that a plant sees itself as it's full-grown self, while a human does not, as humans tend to stop growing, contrary to plants. This would mean that Growth is plant-related, and Regrowth healing-related.

9 minutes ago, DiamondMind said:

Illumination I put both up. Shallan does see some things she should not in her sketches, like the sailors coming escaping from the sea in WoR and the pit in OB, not to mention the Cryptics.

I think that the things Shallan occasionally draws have more to do with her Memories, where the Memory she takes includes the Cognitive Realm as well as the Physical Realm. If it had been a more directly Surgebinding related ability, I think we'd have gotten a hint somewhere in the form of a drained sphere.

I'll give you Transportation, that indeed looks like what you mentioned. I'd forgotten about that part of the book. However, I do think that there is another way to explain it than creating two different abilities. We know for a fact that the Cosmere is based in string theory, and it is not that much of a stretch to theorize that the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms are additional dimensions. Transportation might simply be "moving something or someone across certain dimensions", which could then be the three physical dimensions, but could also include a fourth dimension, bringing the target into a different Realm.

[DiamondMind]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

You're right. I totally messed up the Lashings. And that while I've been working with them so much recently lol... I still believe the Full Lashing is related to Air Pressure though. How else is something related to Pressure going to stick to something else? Pressure is, after all, a very blunt force compared to molecular scale. On a molecular level, pressure doesn't even matter. At all. If you would want to bind objects together on a molecular level, you'd need to create molecular bonds (this is what adhesion does in real life, by the way, but Brandon seems to have ignored real life chemistry when naming the Surges). If you want to use pressure, you can only do it through the pressure of the air in between (or not in between) the objects. That's simply the only way you're getting a solid to do anything special using pressure.

The Surge of Adhesion is called the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum in the Ars Arcanum. You're probably right it's related to Air Pressure somehow, or maybe the Stormlight creates a small vacuum around the object its placed on? I'm not sure if that would be strong enough. Either may, it's not a molecular binding. I think that's tension based on what Dalinar did to repair Thaylen City and the Stromfather's comments at that time.

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

My objection is two-fold. First, do we actually know, as in, have we seen on-screen, that Growth and Regrowth are not actually the same??

The two are labelled as separate in the Ars Arcanum, though that isn't great proof. The time we've seen Growth on screen (as far as I can remember), is Lift growing a vine at the beginning of the Interlude, which seems different to the Healing she performed on Gawx. I don't recall any descriptions of Renarin's Regrowth which specify exactly what happens, either.

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

And second, we know that healing in the Cosmere is filtered through how an object or person views it/him/herself (what the WoB is about), which means you cannot use it to make someone what that person is not, even if it is what that person could be.

I'm saying that Growth is not healing, because you're right it wouldn't work as described. Growth is type of Progression which is different than healing; it Progresses the target. Your suggestion that healing makes the plants grow to full form seem even more dubious a suggestion than separating Growth and Regrowth.

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

I think that the things Shallan occasionally draws have more to do with her Memories, where the Memory she takes includes the Cognitive Realm as well as the Physical Realm. If it had been a more directly Surgebinding related ability, I think we'd have gotten a hint somewhere in the form of a drained sphere.

The problem I see with this suggestion is she draws things she should have no knowledge of and this ability correlates too closely with Renarin's voided Surge. Your explanation works for the Cryptics, but how would she unconsciously draw the sailors and Jasnah, or the pit? I think it makes more sense for both orders to be able to see, though maybe in different capacities.

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

I'll give you Transportation, that indeed looks like what you mentioned. I'd forgotten about that part of the book. However, I do think that there is another way to explain it than creating two different abilities. We know for a fact that the Cosmere is based in string theory, and it is not that much of a stretch to theorize that the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms are additional dimensions. Transportation might simply be "moving something or someone across certain dimensions", which could then be the three physical dimensions, but could also include a fourth dimension, bringing the target into a different Realm.

I can't really argue with you here, it's certainly possible. I just think my idea is neater.

[Pagerunner]

Just so you're aware, @Glamdring804 has posted that theory over here as well, but the thread is not tagged for OB spoilers, so I'll let this topic stay open for the time being.

Oathbringer has shown us that there are different forms of the Surges, the most drastic one being Spiritual Adhesion (a.k.a. Connection manipulation) vs way we've seen Kaladin use Adhesion (presumably Physical). It's interesting that Kaladin and Dalinar can both use Spiritual Adhesion, but Kaladin cannot use Spiritual Adhesion.

I wonder if all Surges have three forms, one for each Realm, and different Surgebinders are limited in their application. Maybe seeing the future, what Renarin did (and the Nightforms among the Listeners), is Spiritual Illumination, whereas Lightweaving is Physical Illumination and the way Shallan can transform people (like Gaz and Elhokar) is Cognitive Illumination.

I think that Realmatics would be a better paradigm than Pushing or Pulling, but it's not an idea I've had time to develop yet. Regardless of how we slice it, there are different ways to use the Surges.

[Blazenella]

3 hours ago, DiamondMind said:

Surge               | Pull                                                                                       | Push
---|---|----
Adhesion          | Change pressure a target exerts (Full Lashing)                   | Change pressure in an area
Gravity             | Change the inherit gravity of the target (Reverse Lashing)  | Change gravity acting on the object (Basic Lashing)
Division            | Divide an object on a molecular level                                    | ?
Abrasion          | Change the friction coefficient of the target                           | ?
Progression     | Make the target as it should be (ReGrowth)                          | Make the target what it could be (Growth)
Illumination       | See the target as it is (Truthwatching)                                   | Change how the target is perceived (Lightweaving)
Transformation | ?                                                                                            | Change how target knows itself (Soulcasting)
Transportation  | Change the target's location and momentum                       | Change the targets Realm
Cohesion          | ?                                                                                           | ?
Tension            | Combine two objects one a molecular level                           | ?

One thing to help fill in your chart. The Skybreakers (Who have Division) were said to be able to seperate the innocent from the guilty, which could be the "Push" your looking for

Edit: This could also be either the Spiritual or Cognitive version of Division

Edited November 16, 2017 by Blazenella

[Glamdring804]

20 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Just so you're aware, @Glamdring804 has posted that theory over here as well, but the thread is not tagged for OB spoilers, so I'll let this topic stay open for the time being.

Oathbringer has shown us that there are different forms of the Surges, the most drastic one being Spiritual Adhesion (a.k.a. Connection manipulation) vs way we've seen Kaladin use Adhesion (presumably Physical). It's interesting that Kaladin and Dalinar can both use Spiritual Adhesion, but Kaladin cannot use Spiritual Adhesion.

I wonder if all Surges have three forms, one for each Realm, and different Surgebinders are limited in their application. Maybe seeing the future, what Renarin did (and the Nightforms among the Listeners), is Spiritual Illumination, whereas Lightweaving is Physical Illumination and the way Shallan can transform people (like Gaz and Elhokar) is Cognitive Illumination.

I think that Realmatics would be a better paradigm than Pushing or Pulling, but it's not an idea I've had time to develop yet. Regardless of how we slice it, there are different ways to use the Surges.

I'll check this out more after I finish OB. I can't read it yet. Thanks for tagging me. 

[DiamondMind]

23 hours ago, Blazenella said:

One thing to help fill in your chart. The Skybreakers (Who have Division) were said to be able to seperate the innocent from the guilty, which could be the "Push" your looking for

Edit: This could also be either the Spiritual or Cognitive version of Division

That seems more like their passive power, otherwise the Dustbringers would have it too.

[Rainier]

I'm chiming in because I was also posting in that reddit thread linked in the OP, and I'm here to continue my proselytization of the realmatic structure of the Orders of Knight Radiant.

To quickly sum, the chart

of the Surges and Orders is split two ways: by Shard and by Realm. The top half is Honor and the bottom half is Cultivation. The right side is Physical, the left side is Cognitive, and the middle two are Spiritual.

So the orders break down like this

Windrunners - Honor - Physical

Skybreakers - Honor - Physical

Dustbringers - Cultivation - Physical

Edgedancers - Cultivation - Physical

Truthwatchers - Cultivation - Spiritual

Lightweavers - Cultivation - Cognitive

Elsecallers - Cultivation - Cognitive

Willshapers - Honor - Cognitive

Stonewards - Honor - Cognitive

Bondsmiths - Honor - Spiritual

This is the pattern that I'm using to evaluate the uses of the surges and their manifestations and resonances. It seems pretty clear the Honor/Cultivation dichotomy exists, as we know Edgedancers are aligned with Cultivation and Windrunners aligned with Honor. Similarly, it's pretty clear that Skybreakers and Bondsmiths are aligned with Honor, and Truthwatchers aligned with Cultivation (foresight). 

I don't know what the end point of all this is, but I would expect that the combination of Realm with Surge will produce unique abilities.

The other thing that interests me are the vertical lines connecting Stonewards with Lightweavers and the Windrunners with Elsecallers. Those four Orders are the only ones with four connections between Orders, not three like all the rest. Each Order is connected to the adjacent Order on either side, and the opposite Order across the chart, for three connections. Somehow there are two additional connections and I don't know what they mean.

[Blazenella]

26 minutes ago, DiamondMind said:

That seems more like their passive power, otherwise the Dustbringers would have it too.

This isn't necessarily true. It's been confirmed in OB that different orders use the surges differently. When Dalinar talks to the Stormfather about Tension, Dalinar aks if he can reshape the rock like the Stoneward did. The Stormfather replies that he will be able to use the surge differently. Like how Kaladin can use Adhesion to stick physical things, and (Maybe) create pressure zones, but Dalinar can use it to bring people together cognitively or spiritually. I think most surges are very order specific. Like how Jasnah can soulcast from a distance, while Shallan can change people's perception of themselves. 

[Blacksmithki]

On 16/11/2017 at 4:50 PM, Pagerunner said:

Oathbringer has shown us that there are different forms of the Surges, the most drastic one being Spiritual Adhesion (a.k.a. Connection manipulation) vs way we've seen Kaladin use Adhesion (presumably Physical). It's interesting that Kaladin and Dalinar can both use Spiritual Adhesion, but Kaladin cannot use Spiritual Adhesion.

Shouldn't that be "Kaladin and Dalinar can both use Adhesion, but Kaladin cannot use Spiritual Adhesion."?

[DiamondMind]

On 11/17/2017 at 4:51 PM, Blazenella said:

This isn't necessarily true. It's been confirmed in OB that different orders use the surges differently. When Dalinar talks to the Stormfather about Tension, Dalinar aks if he can reshape the rock like the Stoneward did. The Stormfather replies that he will be able to use the surge differently. Like how Kaladin can use Adhesion to stick physical things, and (Maybe) create pressure zones, but Dalinar can use it to bring people together cognitively or spiritually. I think most surges are very order specific. Like how Jasnah can soulcast from a distance, while Shallan can change people's perception of themselves. 

But Kaladin can also seem to bring people together, and I did try to explain Jasnah's and Shallan's powers as combining their surges actively.

On 11/17/2017 at 4:35 PM, Rainier said:

This is the pattern that I'm using to evaluate the uses of the surges and their manifestations and resonances. It seems pretty clear the Honor/Cultivation dichotomy exists, as we know Edgedancers are aligned with Cultivation and Windrunners aligned with Honor. Similarly, it's pretty clear that Skybreakers and Bondsmiths are aligned with Honor, and Truthwatchers aligned with Cultivation (foresight). 

I don't know what the end point of all this is, but I would expect that the combination of Realm with Surge will produce unique abilities.

The other thing that interests me are the vertical lines connecting Stonewards with Lightweavers and the Windrunners with Elsecallers. Those four Orders are the only ones with four connections between Orders, not three like all the rest. Each Order is connected to the adjacent Order on either side, and the opposite Order across the chart, for three connections. Somehow there are two additional connections and I don't know what they mean.

One of my biggest problems with this theory is that it seems to arbitrarily classify Physical/Cognitive surges. Spiritual I can get behind, but for the others...why is Gravitation Physical while Tranformation Cognitive? Why is Progression Physical and Tension Cognitive? It doesn't fit together as well as it seems at first glance. I'm going to make another chart with all known powers later, maybe we can get a better handle on it that way.

Ok here's the list of all the powers we've seen demonstrated:

• Adhesion:
  • Create a vacuum around a target in order to trap it (Full Lashing)
  • Change the pressure in an area (Windrunner only)
  • Create Spiritual Connection to a target in order to understand and speak languages (Bondsmith only)
  • Binding groups together?
• Gravitation:
  • Change the Spiritual gravitational bond (and vector) of a target (Basic Lashing)
  • Attract objects to a target as if it had larger mass (Reverse Lashing)
  • Attracting people?
• Division:
• Abrasion:
  • Change the friction coefficient of a target
• Progression:
  • Advancing a plants growth rate (Growth)
  • Healing (Regrowth)
• Illumination:
  • Seeing beyond normal knowledge
  • Creating illusions (Lightweaver only?)
• Transformation:
  • Soulcasting
  • Soulcasting at a distance (Elsecallers only)
  • Transforming a person's idea of themselves (Lightweaver only?)
• Transportation
  • Travel between Realms (Elsecallers only?)
  • Change a targets location and momentum
• Cohesion:
• Tension:
  • Change the molecular bonds of the target 

I think this pretty much covers it. Anything else I missed?

Edited November 19, 2017 by DiamondMind

[MPHRD]

The 'push' of Abrasion might be increasing friction?

[shawnhargreaves]

I think each of the 10 surges can be applied to each of the 3 realms, thus leading to a bunch of options we haven't seen yet (plus of course some that we have).

[Rainier]

On 11/18/2017 at 3:46 PM, DiamondMind said:

why is Gravitation Physical while Tranformation Cognitive? Why is Progression Physical and Tension Cognitive?

Well, considering you need to fix an image and command in your mind to soulcast, like what Jasnah is doing, I'd say that Transformation is Cognitive because it occurs in the Cognitive Realm. The physical realm reflects the cognitive realm, but it's the change in Shadesmar that causes objects in the physical realm to actually change. 

With both Gravitation and Progression, it's less conscious thought and more instinct. Also those surges affect the physical realm directly.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but Transformation is as good an example for a cognitive surge as I can ask for. It really is all cognition, even though the flashy effects are in the physical realm. 

[DiamondMind]

5 hours ago, Rainier said:

Well, considering you need to fix an image and command in your mind to soulcast, like what Jasnah is doing, I'd say that Transformation is Cognitive because it occurs in the Cognitive Realm. The physical realm reflects the cognitive realm, but it's the change in Shadesmar that causes objects in the physical realm to actually change. 

With both Gravitation and Progression, it's less conscious thought and more instinct. Also those surges affect the physical realm directly.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but Transformation is as good an example for a cognitive surge as I can ask for. It really is all cognition, even though the flashy effects are in the physical realm. 

That seems arbitrary. Gravitation, for example, is described as changing the Spiritual bonds of an object. Transformation also affects the physical realm directly, and though it is of the Cognitive Realm its affects are entirely in the Physical. There is also the Transportation that we saw Jasnah use to move physical bodies in the final battle. If Surges are to be classified by Realms, I would be more inclined to support something like in this thread, not splitting them up and assigning each Surge to one Realm.