Shattered Plains = Urithiru

[Rade]

I apologize if this topic is a copy of another topic somewhere, as I have only recently discovered this site and this is my first topic, so please feel free to point out anything which is wrong. Only recently, I found the WoR readings, and read the Eshonai interlude. The one thing that sticks with me about it is how the Shattered Plains all used to be a city, with a central spire in the middle, as well as a thickly inhabited spot. I believe that Sesemelex Dar, or some name close to that, is mentioned in Way of Kings as a city name, one of the ones that the Heralds supposedly designed, for it is perfectly symmetrical, and it had cracks in the ground through which the water of a highstorm drained. My theory is that the canyons in the Shattered Plains were either sewers or canals which grew different form each other and the symmetrical pattern collapsed from neglect, crem, and the highstorms. The one hitch with this idea is that somewhere in the Way of Kings that said Urithiru was instead in the West, but who knows what the ancient people's constituted as West? Also, doesn't it seem odd to anyone that if there was some sort of impact that formed the Shattered Plains in the center which was another idea I heard somewhere, (I'm not sure where so please don't ask, I think it might have just been talking to a friend about the book) then wouldn't the plateaus get larger as they radiated outwards from the center, and the center would be disintegrated?

[Moogle]

It's hard to say. It might help to have the relevant quotes:

 

 

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

Note that it is westward of Alethela and not necessarily in the west. Some theorize it was in Shinovar, however.

 

 

Shallan nodded slowly. “If there were ruins of a magnificent, ancient city hidden somewhere, Natanatan—unexplored, overgrown, wild—would be the natural place to find them.”

“Urithiru is not in Natanatan,” Jasnah said, smiling. “But it is a good guess, Shallan. Return to your studies.”

“The weapons,” Shallan said. Jasnah raised an eyebrow. “The Parshendi. They carried beautiful weapons of fine, etched steel. Yet they used skin drums with crude handprints on the sides and lived in huts of stone and crem. Doesn’t that strike you as incongruous?”

“Yes. I would certainly describe that as an oddity.”

“Then—” “I assure you, Shallan,” Jasnah said. “The city is not there.”

“But you are interested in the Shattered Plains. You spoke of them with Brightlord Dalinar through the spanreed.”

Here, we see Jasnah say Urithiru was not in Natanatan, which is now called the Shattered Plains. She may be lying, or misdirecting Shallan, or any number of things. However, the Shattered Plains are south-east of Alethkar, and apparently Urithiru was to the west of Alethkar, so I feel that Jasnah's conclusion that Urithiru cannot be the Shattered Plains is correct.

 

 

“Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.”

The sheer distances involved are a clue, I think.

 

 

I walked from Abamabar to Urithiru

...

Those dear to me took fright for my safety and, perhaps, my sanity. Kings, they explained, do not walk like beggars for hundreds of miles.

...

My family traveled to Urithiru via the direct method, and had been awaiting me for weeks when I arrived.

'Direct method' implies there was a way other than walking hundreds of miles, unless Nohadon took a very roundabout route.

 

Here is a map.

 

If we knew where Abamabar was, it would be enormously helpful. In any case, going from Somewhere to Kholinar to Veden City seems impossible without some sort of teleportation. I would guess, based on the complaints of tariffs, that all the major cities were connected to Urithiru through "Oathgates" or some other thing. Once you went to Urithiru, the Radiants taxed you (with huge tariffs) for moving goods through it, and then you could go to any other city.

 

In summary, I don't know where Urithiru is. Our only evidence is 'west of Alethela' and 'within hundreds of miles of Abamabar'. Abamabar may be where Nohadon's kingdom was, but apparently Kholinar was still around.

 

 

Dalinar gasped. Dead filled the streets of the city outside, a city that Dalinar vaguely recognized. Kholinar, he thought. My homeland. He stood with the regal man at the top of a low tower, three stories high—a keep of some sort, constructed of stone. It seemed to sit where the palace would someday be.

This is from Dalinar's vision with Nohadon. It seems Nohadon's city was Kholinar, which makes me wonder if it was was known as Abamabar in ages past.

 

In any case, everywhere west of Alethkar seems to be explored/inhabited. It seems odd that Urithiru would have vanished. Here's some possibilities:

• Urithiru was in Shadesmar, the place Jasnah and Shallan go. Problem: this is not 'west' of Alethkar. Advantage: It explains why no one lives there now. Also, teleportation apparently involves Shadesmar (according to Brandon).
• Urithiru was in Aimia. Aimia was 'scourged', which could be because Urithiru was there and people were turning against the Radiants. Problem: people know about Aimia, why is Urithiru considered a myth? Advantage: Well, it's about as west as you can go.
• Urithiru is currently underwater in the Reshi Sea. Problem: We don't know if Roshar is a stable landmass or not. Advantage: It is just westward of Alethkar, and would explain why people think it's myth. It's also close to the Purelake, which may be Cultivation or Honor's Shardpool.

Hopefully this gives you some ideas, Rade.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Moogle

[Aether]

It's hard to say. It might help to have the relevant quotes:

 

Note that it is westward of Alethela and not necessarily in the west. Some theorize it was in Shinovar, however.

 

Here, we see Jasnah say Urithiru was not in Natanatan, which is now called the Shattered Plains. She may be lying, or misdirecting Shallan, or any number of things. However, the Shattered Plains are south-east of Alethkar, and apparently Urithiru was to the west of Alethkar, so I feel that Jasnah's conclusion that Urithiru cannot be the Shattered Plains is correct.

 

The sheer distances involved are a clue, I think.

 

'Direct method' implies there was a way other than walking hundreds of miles, unless Nohadon took a very roundabout route.

 

Here is a map.

 

If we knew where Abamabar was, it would be enormously helpful. In any case, going from Somewhere to Kholinar to Veden City seems impossible without some sort of teleportation. I would guess, based on the complaints of tariffs, that all the major cities were connected to Urithiru through "Oathgates" or some other thing. Once you went to Urithiru, the Radiants taxed you (with huge tariffs) for moving goods through it, and then you could go to any other city.

 

In summary, I don't know where Urithiru is. Our only evidence is 'west of Alethela' and 'within hundreds of miles of Abamabar'. Abamabar may be where Nohadon's kingdom was, but apparently Kholinar was still around.

 

This is from Dalinar's vision with Nohadon. It seems Nohadon's city was Kholinar, which makes me wonder if it was was known as Abamabar in ages past.

 

In any case, everywhere west of Alethkar seems to be explored/inhabited. It seems odd that Urithiru would have vanished. Here's some possibilities:

• Urithiru was in Shadesmar, the place Jasnah and Shallan go. Problem: this is not 'west' of Alethkar. Advantage: It explains why no one lives there now. Also, teleportation apparently involves Shadesmar (according to Brandon).
• Urithiru was in Aimia. Aimia was 'scourged', which could be because Urithiru was there and people were turning against the Radiants. Problem: people know about Aimia, why is Urithiru considered a myth? Advantage: Well, it's about as west as you can go.
• Urithiru is currently underwater in the Reshi Sea. Problem: We don't know if Roshar is a stable landmass or not. Advantage: It is just westward of Alethkar, and would explain why people think it's myth. It's also close to the Purelake, which may be Cultivation or Honor's Shardpool.

Hopefully this gives you some ideas, Rade.

What he said. 

 

I should add, though, that we have WoB (=Word of Brandon) that Roshar is tectonically stable. Also, it have been suggested that Urithiru might be located somewhere unreachable through normal means, such as high up on a mountain, on an unknown/lost island west of the Rosharan super-continent or something else. Someone has also suggested that Urithiru could have been a floating/flying city. Others has taken this even further by suggesting that the Plains was shattered because the flying city of Urithiru smashed down on it.

 

EDIT: And by Neptune's beard, Moogle, up-vote for one of the best posts I've seen on this forum.

 

Also, a great and heartfelt welcome to you, Rade! Up-vote for (one of?) your first post(s)!

Edited December 8, 2013 by Aether

[FirstSelector]

Here's the relevant quote for Urithiru smashing into the Shattered Plains, when Kaladin is riding the storm (Ch 46 of WoK):

 

 

They [the Shattered Plains] looked as if something very large had hit them in the center, sending out rippling breaks outward.

 

This plus the information from Eshonai's chapter seems to imply that the thing that smashed down was a city.  Granted, it could have been some other large object that smashed into the city below, but there is another quote I can't find that implies walking to Urithiru was impossible.

[Aether]

Here's the relevant quote for Urithiru smashing into the Shattered Plains, when Kaladin is riding the storm (Ch 46 of WoK):

 

This plus the information from Eshonai's chapter seems to imply that the thing that smashed down was a city.  Granted, it could have been some other large object that smashed into the city below, but there is another quote I can't find that implies walking to Urithiru was impossible.

The quote expressly says "looked like", which does not necessarily mean that something did smash into it. Also, "something" is not necessarily the same as Urithiru (EDIT: You already mentioned that. Sorry for reiterating the point).

 

And here's the other relevant quote you mentioned:

“I walked from Abamabar to Urithiru.”

This quote from the Eighth Parable of The Way of Kings seems to contradict Varala and Sinbian, who both claim the city was inaccessible by foot. Perhaps there was a way constructed, or perhaps Nohadon was being metaphorical.

- From the Epigraph of chapter 34 of the Way of Kings. <source>

Edited December 9, 2013 by Aether

[Shardlet]

Also, it should be noted that Brandon wrote "Great magic unleashed here" on someone's map of Roshar with an arrow pointing to the Shattered Plains.

 

Also, others have posited that Urithuru was in the Purelake.

[Guest Alaxel]

I've always thought it interesting that is says, "...we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor." When have you ever heard someone 'place' a city somewhere. You don't; you build them somewhere. To 'place' something somewhere it must already exist in order to be capable of being placed. You may argue that they were refering to the idea of Urithiru, but I still think it they would have referred to it as being built, not placed.

As for the Shattered Plains looking like something huge smashed it...it is interesting to note that Heraldic cities have symmetrical shapes and that the Shattered Plains also have a kind of symmetry. Occam Shardblade would view the notion of an old city with symmetrical canals that has been abandoned and subjected to thousands of years of Highstorm's as more likely than the notion that the Plains were once whole and something randomly smashed them.

Lastly, Jasnah tells Shallan that Urithiru is not at the Shattered Plains, not that it was not there. Jasnah strikes me as the kind of person who is very particular about the words she uses. This makes me think that Urithiru is able to be moved from place to place, likely through Shadesmar, and almost certainly through Shardic Intervention.

[Oudeis]

I've always thought it interesting that is says, "...we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor." When have you ever heard someone 'place' a city somewhere. You don't; you build them somewhere. To 'place' something somewhere it must already exist in order to be capable of being placed. You may argue that they were refering to the idea of Urithiru, but I still think it they would have referred to it as being built, not placed.

As for the Shattered Plains looking like something huge smashed it...it is interesting to note that Heraldic cities have symmetrical shapes and that the Shattered Plains also have a kind of symmetry.

 

That... is one of the most specious arguments I've ever heard. I'm just going to point out quickly that the notation for that quote points out that the translation was questionable, meaning let's not look too deeply into the connotation of word choice.

 

I've wondered about this. Isn't it Dalinar who comments briefly that there's a similarity to the Plains? I don't see it. We know the west side is huge plateaus, and the east is very, very small ones. Does he mean that he thinks if the smaller ones hadn't been worn away, it'd be similar?

 

I suppose the symmetry could be north-south line symmetry, but all the other cymatic cities had point symmetry. Does anyone have any deeper thoughts on what specifically was meant by the reference to symmetry, if I'm even remembering that part right? While we're at it, does anyone know of a place to get a good pic of the plains? I'm gonna try coppermind and googling once I post this...

[Shardlet]

Dalinar comments that it looks like there should be a pattern to the plains but nobody can identify it.  He then thinks that this may be because they only have mapped a modest portion of the plains.  Kaladin in his storm ride dream indicates that there is a pattern.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Shardlet

[11thorderknight]

Thoughts: 

 

1. When Shallan explains her reasoning for why she thinks Urithiru may be in Natanatan, she makes valid arguments, and Jasnah acknowledges that. She then proceeds to say, very directly, "Urithiru is not in Natanatan". Why would Jasnah, a very rational and scientific person, categorically reject what she herself acknowledges is a sound hypothesis? The only reason would be if she herself had already investigated it and disproved it. How.....I don't know. But remember, Jasnah has been researching this stuff for years, and almost certainly has access to very fast and secret means of transportation. So I'm gonna go ahead and trust her on this one.

 

2. Shattered Plains - we know they contain the ruins of a city, but it doesn't have to be one that's currently known. After dozens of desolations, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that there are ruins of destroyed cities lying around. Also, what if it's not a human city at all, but a Parshendi city? From Kaladin's vision, we can infer that something huge exploded or struck the earth in that location, but jumping from that to "Urithiru fell out of the sky" is a bit much.

 

3. Nohadon walking to Urithiru vs. Urithiru being inaccessible by foot - this one's a mystery at this point, but I'd like to point out that the two statements are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Let's say Urithiru was up on a cloud, and you had to climb a magic beanstalk to get up to it. That would make it inaccessible by foot. But you could still walk from Abamabar to wherever the magic beanstalk was, then climb up, and still reasonably describe yourself as having walked to Urithiru. The point is that Nohadon walked hundreds of miles across Roshar, interacting with the common folk on the way, whereas a person of his station would be expected to have travelled by Oathgate. 

 

4. "Placed Westward..." - Well, for whatever reason, the author of that statement seemed to this that it was "obvious" that Urithiru could not be placed in Alethela. Now, we don't know what exactly that means, but I'd like to offer the most mundane possibility - that the home of the Knights Radiant, a city build to hold "ten thrones" and be "international" doesn't belong inside the borders of one of the ten nations, especially the one that's most devoted to the martial arts already. Note though, that basically everything in Roshar is westward of Alethela. The one exception, conveniently enough, is Natanatan (see #1). 

 

5. "...in the place closest to Honor." - What's closest to Honor? Remember, these people see Honor as God, in the capital G sense. And virtually every religion associates the divine with the heavens, i.e. the sky. At the same time, Urithiru is spoken of as having a "place" and a direction (westward); that doesn't fit with a flying city, or one that's in Shadesmar, or other outlandish theories. So, what place is closest to Honor, west of Alethela, inaccessible by foot but can plausibly be walked to? 

 

How about the Horneater Peaks? They're the tallest mountain range on Roshar, thus being "closest to Honor", they can be described as both inaccessible by foot and yet on the landmass to be walked to. On my next re-read, I'll have to pay more attention to what Rock says about his home.

[Oudeis]

@11th: You make several good points, not the least of which your various holes in my own theory that it is the Plains. I am going to quibble on "Nearest Honor" meaning "Up", I think it's your most tenuous of connections, but the rest is solid.

 

Idle thought that occurred to me while I considered this... no one ever seems to talk about "Almight Above" or "The Heralds in Heaven," but they DO talk about the Tranquiline Halls. What if there was once a location thought to be where Roshar physically connected to the Tranquiline Halls? That would 1) be a place "Close to Honor" and 2) make a pretty good UN spot.

[11thorderknight]

@11th: You make several good points, not the least of which your various holes in my own theory that it is the Plains. I am going to quibble on "Nearest Honor" meaning "Up", I think it's your most tenuous of connections, but the rest is solid.

 

Idle thought that occurred to me while I considered this... no one ever seems to talk about "Almight Above" or "The Heralds in Heaven," but they DO talk about the Tranquiline Halls. What if there was once a location thought to be where Roshar physically connected to the Tranquiline Halls? That would 1) be a place "Close to Honor" and 2) make a pretty good UN spot.

 

Yeah, the idea that Honor = up is just a wild guess at this point. And you're right, we have no references in-book to any sort of heaven, so the theory is very speculative at best.

 

As for the Tranquiline Halls - I think there's a theme developing regarding how natural phenomena that aren't understood become religious phenomena over time. We know that Roshar is one planet in a solar system of several, and that Odium is currently based on one of those others. In Vorin mythology, humanity once lived in the Tranquiline Halls, but was forced out of them by the voidbringers, who then followed through and tried to kill them. We know humans are, biologically/ecologically, completely alien to Roshar, but that there is a pocket (Shinovar) of traditional "earth-like" vegetation, animals, etc. My theory is that humans were forced onto Roshar by Odium, perhaps driven off of Braize, perhaps from somewhere else. The legend of the Tranquiline Halls, then, is what remains of their collective memory of originating on another planet, and is the only way they have of currently understanding that concept.

 

At some point, I'm sure we will find out what makes Shinovar special. But if it has something do with with it being a location where humans "landed" on Roshar, that could conceivably be described as "closest to Honor". It would also give Nohadon quite a distance to walk, if Abamabar was anywhere in Alethela. 

Edited December 10, 2013 by 11thorderknight

[Rade]

Well, if we are going to figure out where it is, I would take a shot in the dark and say that Urithiru is someplace that has already been mentioned in Way of Kings, because Brandon normally likes to have a good bit of groundwork laid for major plot twists. Yes, I know that this is supposed to be a huge saga of books, but he would probably put some good hints in. I'll try and list some important places I can think off of the top of my head in order.

#1: Shattered Plains, already discussed for the most part.

#2: Purelake was mentioned, and although I haven't read the interlude for it in WoR yet, I will read it soon. (I think I saw a reference to one somewhere not in this topic.)

#3: Again, already mentioned, the Horneater Peaks. However, this one has a couple small holes. #1: Even if it does move, wouldn't it have to find a good, large, flat spot to land on unless it was permanently floating in the sky? Peaks have points, slopes, and not much else. 

#4: Again, already mentioned, Shinovar or whatever the Shin land is called. Other than it seems Earth-like, we don't really know anything about it, so we can't judge it. (This goes for a lot of the things I'm putting down here, just theories, nothing is sure in the first book of what is meant to be a series.)

#5: I'm only going to say something when an idea WASN'T put forward already by now. ;-) The Reshi Sea. I don't know about this one, it just...it doesn't really seem to fit, but it is an interesting idea.

#6:Aimia: That seems to fit with mostly everything, except for the already acknowledged "Urithiru is a myth" type behavior everywhere.

#7: Shadesmar: An interesting idea, but I think that Brandon Sanderson might just be talking about how Jasnah shoved Shallan back through a large flame to get her into the normal world. If people wanted to move goods, they would have to pay the Radiants exorbitant amounts of money (tariffs) to move them with their goods through Shadesmar to the appropriate flame. Also, how would you permanently affix energy to beads of glass that respond only to will when most of the Radiants/Heralds are long gone? (I never figured out if the 10nth Herald was alive or dead at the end of Way of Kings. I think I saw somebody say he was alive, but I'm not sure. Making a guess about the will from what Jasnah did in Shadesmar.)

 

And now for the other places that I can remember.

#8: Although Hoid might have just told Kaladin the story about the great leader who made a huge ship to sail westwards, does anybody here know many instances where Brandon Sanderson does just 1 thing, or the thing that he appears to be doing on the surface at a time? For all we know, Urithiru is under the whirlpool way out there.

#9: Isn't the Nightsinger or whatever the mysterious person who grants wishes in return for a curse of some type currently living to the west of Alethkar? They might be a sort of guardian to Urithiru.

#10: ...I had some random idea for this, but I'm forgetting it right now. I'm sure somebody else will come up with it eventually.

 

Random thoughts: Since many of the Shards of Adonalsium--one of which is Honor-- have physical manifestations, what if Honor just had some large, immobile physical manifestation of *SPOILER ALERT FROM MISTBORN SERIES, SKIP THIS NEXT PART IF YOU HAVEN'T READ IT*

[Rade]

himself like Ruin did in atium? 

 

 

 

 

*Spoilers from Mistborn series ended*

[Moogle]

Yeah, the idea that Honor = up is just a wild guess at this point. And you're right, we have no references in-book to any sort of heaven, so the theory is very speculative at best.

 

We have this:

 

 

"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."

 

That implies there were temples built up high. I admit, the connection is tenuous.

 

As to the general arguments about the interesting phrase 'asked for it to be placed westward', I suspect all of the Dawncities (Kholinar, Kharbranth, etc.) were similarly placed. All of the big cities, with their symmetries, were apparently 'crafted by the Heralds', but this could be a religious fuzziness. They could have been placed directly there by Honor or Cultivation. I don't think this makes Urithiru special.

[Shardlet]

#3: Again, already mentioned, the Horneater Peaks. However, this one has a couple small holes. #1: Even if it does move, wouldn't it have to find a good, large, flat spot to land on unless it was permanently floating in the sky? Peaks have points, slopes, and not much else. 

 

Well, to address point #3, I would note that Jasnah, in her quip to Kabsal, associates Urithuru with the four discussed cymatic cities Dawncities (that is, cities believed to be created using the dawnshards).  I also note that Kholinar has three great big windblades bordering it.  Such features are not likely to be the result of natural geologic and weathering forces.  It is also likely that they did not build a city by removing a mountain except for those three monoliths.  This suggests some credibility to the Dawnshard belief that these land formations are made by something (In my mind, the Dawnshards).  That being the case, if Urithuru was created using the Dawnshards (or at least by a similar mechanism to the four cymatic cities), then it very well could have been created in the mostly inaccessible peaks of some mountains by means of directly reshaping the area where the city was to be created.  

 

As a side note, such a means of creation could reasonably account for the use of the term 'placed' rather than 'built'.

 

Edit:  For your edification Rade, to make spoiler tags to hide spoiler info, simply use the following code leaving out the *:  [spoiler*]Spoilery text you want to hide

It will look like this:

Spoilery text you want to hide

 

Edit 2: Looked and saw that there was no mention of the Dawnshards in conjunction with the four cymatic cities.  Neither were they referred to as the dawncities.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Shardlet

[Oudeis]

Speaking of cymatics and city symmetry...

 

I never noticed this before, but if you put your thumb over Aimia, Roshar's got something close to point-symmetry. For that matter, it sorta looks like a radar map of a hurricane. Just throwing that out there.

 

 

 Jasnah, ... associates Urithuru with the four discussed Dawncities (that is, cities believed to be created using the dawnshards).  I also not that Kholinar has three great big wind-vanes bordering it.  Such features are not likely to be the result of natural geologic and weathering forces.

 

Not likely to be the result of natural forces on Earth, sure. Are cymatics a real thing on earth? I feel like Jasnah implied that if it's something that naturally happens with sand on a plate, that natural forces could possibly have shaped them on a grander scale, too. Maybe a big mountain shook down and only the cymatic core was strong enough to survive, or perhaps lava flowed in this pattern before solidifying.

 

Just the theory of someone whose only understanding of geology is that it's "physics slowed with trees on top" -Terry Pratchett. I'm sure someone who took Earth Sciences will correct me before too long. Until then, my general theory is that this is something like the mist-sickness from Mistborn; a clue left behind to indicate something is special. "Hey, humans. This is a dawn-city. Stay here, it's special in ways not readily apparent."

[Shardlet]

Not likely to be the result of natural forces on Earth, sure. Are cymatics a real thing on earth? I feel like Jasnah implied that if it's something that naturally happens with sand on a plate, that natural forces could possibly have shaped them on a grander scale, too. Maybe a big mountain shook down and only the cymatic core was strong enough to survive, or perhaps lava flowed in this pattern before solidifying.

 

Just the theory of someone whose only understanding of geology is that it's "physics slowed with trees on top" -Terry Pratchett. I'm sure someone who took Earth Sciences will correct me before too long. Until then, my general theory is that this is something like the mist-sickness from Mistborn; a clue left behind to indicate something is special. "Hey, humans. This is a dawn-city. Stay here, it's special in ways not readily apparent."

 

I think I get what you are saying, but the harmonics would have to be present in order for such a thing to occur naturally.  In cymatics, the pattern is a function of vibrational frequency, material of the plate, and geometry of the plate.  It also should be noted that the pattern occupies the entire plate.  Since Roshar is not tectonically active, there is essentially only one plate.   Any vibrations resulting in shaping of vulcanism, erosion, seismic activity, or whatever, would have to be localized and consistent in frequency for the duration of the transformation.  There is clearly (in my mind at least) something fancy-pants going on with the dawncities.  

[hoser]

Well, if we are going to figure out where it is, I would take a shot in the dark and say that Urithiru is someplace that has already been mentioned in Way of Kings,

Another place mentioned also has associations w/the Radiants.  The way of Kings was preserved along with songs in Dawnchant among the Vanrial at the Silent Mount in Jah Keved. 

 

My personal preference is that it is in the serious mountains in central Roshar, not in any of the Silver Kingdoms. 

 

Another random point is that Urithiru is known as the "tower city", "crafted by the hands of no man" in one reference. 

 

Well, to address point #3, I would note that Jasnah, in her quip to Kabsal, associates Urithuru with the four discussed Dawncities (that is, cities believed to be created using the dawnshards).  I also not that Kholinar has three great big wind-vanes bordering it.  Such features are not likely to be the result of natural geologic and weathering forces.  It is also likely that they did not build a city by removing a mountain except for those three monoliths.  This suggests some credibility to the Dawnshard belief.  That being the case, if Urithuru was created using the Dawnshards, then it very well could have been created in the mostly inaccessible peaks of some mountains by means of directly reshaping the area where the city was to be created.  

 

As a side note, such a means of creation could reasonably account for the use of the term 'placed' rather than 'built'.

It is interesting that Kholinar exists in the Nohadon vision.  If it was made by Dawnshard, a question is whether Urithiru existed before the Radiants.  The Radiants seemed to be involved in placing it, and the stability of the Silver Kingdoms was presumably an effect of the Radiants effectiveness.  The implication would be that the Dawnshards were used to create Kholinar and again, much later, to create Urithiru. 

 

It also seems possible that Urithiru was not created using Dawnshards and Jasnah was just deflating Kabsal (not that I would bet on it).

 

@Shardlet - I just searched and couldn't find where the Dawnshards are associated with the creation of the dawncities.  I had assumed that they were both from the "dawn" of time in Roshar.  Could you please help me out with the source for the dawnshards creating the cities? 

Edited December 10, 2013 by hoser

[WeiryWriter]

Are cymatics a real thing on earth?

 

Cymatics are most definitely a real thing on Earth.

[Oudeis]

GUYS GUYS GUYS

 

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121122112712/stormlightarchive/images/1/1f/Silver_Kingdoms.jpg

 

I'm not sure where that map came from or if it's "canon" or whatnot. But it's what I looked at to get my idea of Roshar being symmetric.

 

The Heralds on the border are flipped from the Heralds in the Surgechart. Line symmetry, top-to-bottom.

 

What is up with that? I have no idea. It just astounds me.

[Aether]

GUYS GUYS GUYS

 

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121122112712/stormlightarchive/images/1/1f/Silver_Kingdoms.jpg

 

I'm not sure where that map came from or if it's "canon" or whatnot. But it's what I looked at to get my idea of Roshar being symmetric.

 

The Heralds on the border are flipped from the Heralds in the Surgechart. Line symmetry, top-to-bottom.

 

What is up with that? I have no idea. It just astounds me.

Um, dude? This is from the hard-cover flap illustrations and is most certainly canon. Or are you being sarcastic?

[WeiryWriter]

GUYS GUYS GUYS

 

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121122112712/stormlightarchive/images/1/1f/Silver_Kingdoms.jpg

 

I'm not sure where that map came from or if it's "canon" or whatnot. But it's what I looked at to get my idea of Roshar being symmetric.

 

The Heralds on the border are flipped from the Heralds in the Surgechart. Line symmetry, top-to-bottom.

 

What is up with that? I have no idea. It just astounds me.

 

Yah, that is one of the endpages?  It is on the opposite page from the Surgebinding chart so that is why they Heralds are flipped, they are mirrored positions. (i.e. Jezrien is in the upper left on the left page and upper right on the right page, etc.)

 

Edit: Ninja'd by Aether...

Edited December 10, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[Aether]

Edit: Ninja'd by Aether...

"Great minds think alike".

[Oudeis]

Um, dude? This is from the hard-cover flap illustrations and is most certainly canon. Or are you being sarcastic?

 

Nope, my copy is on my Nook. No fancy things like.. this thing. Wait so... left and right oriented how?

 

The two things I've seen (the surgechart and the silver map) were both oriented wider than tall, so with the map the words are upright and for the chart the larkins are also upright. On the Surgechart, Jezrien is in the upper right (so near the Windrunner symbol) and the Heralds proceed in order clockwise. On the map, Jezrien is in the lower right (so near Natanatan) and the Heralds proceed in order anti-clockwise. Is that how it is with everyone? And we think that's simply a matter of, how it was stuck in the book?