LDS Influences on Themes (Theology Time)

[The Rooster he/him]

One thing I've always enjoyed about Brandon is a common theme that drives all of his books (especially those in the Cosmere).  The idea of exploring divinity; regular people searching for Gods , becoming Gods, interacting with Gods and Gods dying.  These themes are very relatable to me as someone who was raised Christian while becoming increasingly agnostic (borderline atheist).  I know a lot of 17th Sharders are LDS and I was wondering if some of you think that this belief  lends itself towards this subject matter.  I remember someone flippantly saying "Mormons believe God is a 7 foot tall blonde dude who physically exists, but on another planet."  I know that may sound insensitive but that's a direct quote and I'm writing this to gain a better understanding of LDS beliefs.  I assume a big part of his Realmatic structure could have been colored thru the imagination of someone rationalizing Mormonism, it's just how I feel right now based on the limited information I have.  I'm game for  anyone who would like to discuss this in this open and safe forum , enlighten me, scold me for prejudices , or just tell me I'm way off and I should drop it.  I'm well versed in Old/ New Testament Scripture along with Methodist, Lutheran and Eastern European Orthodox theology so don't be afraid to go deep. 

[Shardlet he/him]

Well, I'm a little bit leary about this topic since internet forums can get pretty brutal and offensive when it comes to religion.  So, I would ask that people be respectful of other's beliefs (LDS, Catholic, Buddhist, Atheist, or whatever). 

 

That being said, there are some tidbits which may have some source in LDS scripture and theology.  Perhaps the most obvious one is Taravangian's comment to Szeth that it is better for one man to sin than for a nation to perish.  This echos a story in the Book of Mormon where a man (Nephi) is commanded by the Lord to slay another man (Laban) who is fallen down drunk at Nephi's feet.  Laban has in his possession a record that Nephi has been commanded to retrieve.  When Nephi balks at killing Laban, the Lord says that it is better that one man should die than a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief. 

 

Other parallels that has been raised is the idea within LDS doctrine that pretty much all churches have at least a portion of the true gospel and that they are worthy of respect and praise for at least this reason.  We see this idea most pronounced with Sazed's journey in Mistborn.  As near as I can tell, there is a lot more philosophy than religion in Brandon's books.  To be sure, he uses religion frequently.  He draws from general religious themes often.  Such as tradition v. doctrine (safehand, etc.).  But, I don't see many LDS themes surfacing so far.  I remember reading Mistborn knowing that Brandon was LDS and observing Sazed's journey somewhat closely out of curiosity about how religion was going to play out in the trilogy.   

Edited October 30, 2013 by Shardlet

[The Rooster he/him]

Shardlet  thanks for the example, the Nephi story is a pretty direct parable I wasn't aware of.  Sazed's journey specifically was one that I identified with very strongly as well. I was having a crisis of faith while reading the Mistborn Trilogy the first time and I had very strong emotional ties to his story in The Hero of Ages specifically.

 

Well, I'm a little bit leary about this topic since internet forums can get pretty brutal and offensive when it comes to religion.  So, I would ask that people be respectful of other's beliefs (LDS, Catholic, Buddhist, Atheist, or whatever). 

 I do not want to be disrespectful to anyone's beliefs in any way.  I thought this would be a pretty safe place to have an open discussion because there's generally a very well-natured community here.  I was just looking for some frank and honest opinions,  I used the example quote in my original statement as a bit of a Litmus to show how little I know of the LDS Church.

[Argent he/him]

I want to contribute to this thread by only quoting Jasnah... Can we wait some 15 years and have this talk then?

[Shardlet he/him]

I figured that you were above board and in earnest in creating this topic, agrooster.  I was more concerned about those that may follow.  And I wanted to encourage people to be more thoughtful in their responses lest this become a bash of someone's faith or religion (or atheism) in general.  I know that we have a number of members here who have very strong feelings about religion and I hope that everyone can speak about this topic in a respectful manner.  I would hate for people to driven away from the site because another member got a little heavy-handed.  I have seen it happen over things that engender much less passionate feelings than matters of faith.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Shardlet

[firstRainbowRose she/her]

I am going to pop up not to reply, but to say to anyone who reads/comments on this thread should be aware that the admins will watch this topic VERY closely.  If at any point the conversation turns caustic, or turns away from being reasonable.  Any attack.  Any rude comment and it WILL BE shut down.  No questions asked, no chance of reopening.  I love an open discussion, but we will not tolerate disrespect of ANYONE's beliefs.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

What Shardlet said. He summed up most of what I planned to say. Here I started a topic similar to this one, but it didnt last long. Some of the things I mentioned there are:

-The Nephi story which Shardlet already covered

-When Kaladin runs at the front of the bridge and all the arrows just miss him, I recalled a story of Samuel (the Lamanite), where he stood on a wall preaching to a city of wicked people and they shot arrows and threw stones at him, but he was protected and they all missed.

There are some other things people have mentioned on that thread, one person even related things to Hinduism, but I'm not going to summarize them all.

[Ete'ni]

erm... I was under impression that belief and religion and church are three diffirent matters but... whatever...

[The Rooster he/him]

This is getting slippery very fast. I will say the thesis concept for Mistborn (trilogy of trilogies) lends itself to very interesting exploration of how myths and beliefs come about. I love seeing the Alloy of Law world and how it was influenced by the original trilogy events. Many fantasy books explore this but Brandon has real skill at making this progression seem very organic and natural. I've spent many a service thinking of the scripture lesson trying to picture the world then and what really happened.

[Shardlet he/him]

Yeah, I agree.  It will be really cool to see how the mythology evolves going into the second trilogy and on into the third.  A great opportunity.

[Argent he/him]

Funny - I was actually thinking of Brandon's characters with more... interesting religious beliefs a couple of hours before this came online. Sazed, obviously, with his meticulous process of elimination of religions. Hrathen with his logical worship of Shu-Korath. Jasnah, who is Hrathen's polar opposite - relying on her logic to reject religion instead is embracing it. Boy, would I pay money to see those two have a debate...

Edited October 30, 2013 by Argent

[Windrunner he/him]

EDIT #2: I urge anyone who reads this to NOT respond to it until I have a green light from the admins, saying that I can speak here. My opinions on the matter are strong and not very popular, so I don't want to ruin this discussion by enraging everyone to the point where the entire thread gets locked because people disagree with me personally. I've seen it happen before...

You don't need the permission of the staff to express an opinion, that's what this forum is all about. You can't have a discussion if no one can express an opinion. We give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they're going to be polite and respectful in their discussion. If someone breaks that trust, then there can and will be consequences.

 

We've been tiptoeing around people's religious beliefs for so long, any sort of disagreement is viewed as disrespect. If your religion claims (for example) that babies who die immediately after birth are doomed to an eternity of suffering, or at best - nothingness - I will call your religion dumb. That doesn't mean I am calling you dumb.

That is exactly what we don't want. If you call someone else's religion dumb, that is not going to fly. It's exactly how flame wars get started. If we're going to have an intelligent conversation, I'm going to have to ask you to refrain from calling someone's religion out as being dumb or nonsensical or whatever. Religion is a topic that can get heated when the best of friends discuss it in person, let alone people who don't know each other particularly well over the internet. I trust that you know yourself well enough that you know whether or not you can take part in this discussion without causing a problem

[Shardlet he/him]

Hrathen (in addition to being one of my favorite characters that Brandon has written) is a great example of internal religious conflict and evolution.  I don't see anything in his struggle, though, that strikes a particular chord with LDS doctrine of tradition.  Hrathen is more of a general evolution from  logical conversion to vital faith which is more or less equally applicable to most faiths.  Sazed travels a similar, but broader path as he seeks to find logical proofs in the belief systems he has collected until he reaches a crisis of faith.  The sad thing (to me) is that he never quite grasps and develops faith.  So his quest continues onward even after he is now a Shard.  Again, though, I don't see anything particularly LDS in Sazed's story other than what I cited earlier.

[Chaos he/him]

I'm going to ask that posts in this topic should be directly discussing religion in relation to Brandon's work. If it does not, I'm probably going to just remove them from now on. This is about analysis of religion in Brandon's works, and any other religious discussion is probably irrelevant to this topic at hand. Thank you.

[Beautor he/him]

I'd say that Sazed's systematic consideration of the various religions of his world is a path many people follow in their lives, and it was something that really drew me to his character. Even people who have been raised in a particular religion often spend some time questionning the things they've been taught by others. I certainly can empathize with his struggle to find truth and importance in life, and I also espouse the belief that most if not all religions contain truth.

 

One trait that it seems to me (based on my somewhat hazy memory of reading almost everything he has written) is that Brandon's main characters who deal directly with religion tend to do so from a very analytical point of view. Sure there are zealots in the books, but as far as I can recall I think that most of his characters tend to be more moderate thinkers regarding religion.

[Mysty she/her]

I actually read Mistborn without knowing that Brandon was LDS. At some point during HoA Sazed had given enough little hints to make me flip to the back cover and finally read the "about the author" and find out for sure. things that Sazed said to make me realize Brandon was LDS: first, the comments about the irony of using the survivorists picking the spear as their symbol since that is what killed the survivor (we don't use the cross as we want to focus on Christs resurection over the crucifiction). second, that all churches have part of the truth. third, an accumulation of specific phrasings and word choices that i thought were waaaay to common for someone non-LDS to happen to choose that consistently.

[weebojello]

I actually read Mistborn without knowing that Brandon was LDS. At some point during HoA Sazed had given enough little hints to make me flip to the back cover and finally read the "about the author" and find out for sure. things that Sazed said to make me realize Brandon was LDS: first, the comments about the irony of using the survivorists picking the spear as their symbol since that is what killed the survivor (we don't use the cross as we want to focus on Christs resurection over the crucifiction). second, that all churches have part of the truth. third, an accumulation of specific phrasings and word choices that i thought were waaaay to common for someone non-LDS to happen to choose that consistently.

Wow, that's pretty interesting. I wouldn't have recognized that at all.

 

I've generally enjoyed Sanderson's use of religion throughout the cosmere. It makes the worlds feel more "alive" for me. I think it's an honest realization that cultures *have* beliefs. I can respect that, even if I may or not believe in what an authors belief system is.

 

The use of both Sazed and Jasnah show a deft hand and a curious mind. 

[Shardlet he/him]

the comments about the irony of using the survivorists picking the spear as their symbol since that is what killed the survivor (we don't use the cross as we want to focus on Christs resurection over the crucifiction).

 

Ha, I forgot about that one.  Good catch Mysty.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

I have been waiting for a thread like this, actually. But I understand it could become sensitive/offensive really fast. I have always wondered what part Sanderson's religious influences played on his writing. You can tell faith can be a big theme for a lot of characters throughout his works. And I actually have some familiarity with the Church of LDS. (I live right down the road from the first Mormon Church in Kirtland, Ohio and visited and learned about the history of the religion on a fieldtrip). And of course there have been the South Park episodes/Book of Mormon Musical which "educates" people (in a very biased way, I will admit). I'll be the first to say, they do inaccurately portray some things, but I've read the actual Book of Mormon, so I know the differences). 

And I'll admit, being a self-proclaimed atheist, he nailed Jasnah's character. You can tell he has done his research. And even Sazed and Hrathen and other characters with their crisis' of belief, he has been able to dictate that inter-struggle very accurately. You can just tell he understands the impact these things have on people and the progression of history. Whether you believe in certain things or not, you can acknowledge the impact it has had on humans and civilization.
So I appreciate how Sanderson  is able to utilize this and incorporate it very flawlessly. creating great, unique worlds. It's fantasy. And great fantasy at that.

Edit: If admins don't find this post to be within the guidelines set or anything else wrong, please feel free to remove. I really don't want to upset anybody here or step on any toes. You're all great people here as far as I'm concerned.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Gamma Fiend

[Argent he/him]

Truth on Jasnah's character, Gamma Fiend. Her arguments feel right - the logic, the reason, the science, the doubts, the do-not-try-to-convert-me-and-I-will-not-try-to-convert-you attitude (there really needs to be a word for this too), the willingness - desire even - to question and shake what has been accepted, not necessarily because she knows better, but because healthy skepticism is healthy. Yes, I imagine she is in many ways like me. Except hot and in possession of breasticles. Big winning points those.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Truth on Jasnah's character, Gamma Fiend. Her arguments feel right - the logic, the reason, the science, the doubts, the do-not-try-to-convert-me-and-I-will-not-try-to-convert-you attitude (there really needs to be a word for this too), the willingness - desire even - to question and shake what has been accepted, not necessarily because she knows better, but because healthy skepticism is healthy. Yes, I imagine she is in many ways like me. Except hot and in possession of breasticles. Big winning points those.

Thats why I was a little surprised when I found out he wasn't atheist. I'm just like, "he pulled of Jasnah's views sooo good though". But I think I remember reading Q&A's where he said he went to various online atheist  sites and forums, and talked to a lot of nice people and did his research.

I was very impressed when I read that.

[Two McMillion he/him]

I'll be very interested in seeing where Jasnah's beliefs go, given we more or less know she's wrong and the Almighty exists (or did).

[Yados]

I'll be very interested in seeing where Jasnah's beliefs go, given we more or less know she's wrong and the Almighty exists (or did).

 

Not really, though. Honor might have been called the Almighty, but he was just some guy with lots and lots of magic. It's not like Jasnah disbelieves in the metaphysical. There could be a guy walking around with a bunch of magic, but that wouldn't give him the moral superiority to tell people what to do any more than Sadeas has. For all we know he's a jerk.

 

Or inept. I mean he's dead, right? Where does he get off telling women how long their sleeves to be? Stupid, ineffective Almighty. Can't even kill the main antagonist of the epic series prior to its start. 

Edited October 31, 2013 by Yados

[The Rooster he/him]

Not really, though. Honor might have been called the Almighty, but he was just some guy with lots and lots of magic. It's not like Jasnah disbelieves in the metaphysical. There could be a guy walking around with a bunch of magic, but that wouldn't give him the moral superiority to tell people what to do any more than Sadeas has. For all we know he's a jerk.

 

Or inept. I mean he's dead, right? Where does he get off telling women how long their sleeves to be? Stupid, ineffective Almighty. Can't even kill the main antagonist of the epic series prior to its start. 

 

This is what's so cool about these themes in the Brandon's books.  It's complicated.  Generally in fantasy if a character is atheist.. they're wrong because we know there are Gods.  Here we have being with God-like powers but as far as we know they're humans imbued with power.  It adds complexity and grey areas that keep me thinking about all of this.. like seriously a lot.

Edited October 31, 2013 by agrooster

[Argent he/him]

The one thing that seriously differentiates fantasy Gods from the Earthly ones is the fact that the former are natural. Yes, they have access to unspeakable magics - but so do people. The difference is usually quantitative one, not qualitative, though the fact that Shards hold so much more power makes them seem like their power is fundamentally different from what people have access to. I believe this to be false - Allomancers and Preservation are really using the same powers, but because Preservation is so much more powerful, the effects it can produce sometimes look different. Changing a planet's orbit might sound like it has nothing to do with Allomancy, but for someone on Preservation's power level, it could be as simple as a Steelpush or an Ironpull (against the planet's metallic core). 

 

This is one of the reasons I haven't been able to just "have faith" in some invisible God - even discarding the standard arguments (lack of evidence, no testable hypothesis, no need for a deity, etc), I take issue with how disconnected this God's powers are from my everyday experiences. People from the cosmere have no issue believing in the supernatural, because to them there is nothing super- about it. It's how their universe works. I often wish ours did so too...