Feruchemichal Gold

[DocHoliday]

Look, pretty much this whole thread is spoilers, so if you haven't read the Mistborn trilogy and Alloy of Law, stop reading.

 

 

Alright Feruchemichal healing, and some discrepancies I'dlike to see cleared up, has been bugging me for awhile now. As I understand it, it works on the basis that it has a template for the human body, and works to restore it to that original template when Gold is Tapped. Evidence that supports this is the obvious closing of wounds, the regrowth of skin from burns, regrowing of fingers and while limbs, and the reanimation of limbs damaged by Shardblade. 

 

During Saze's fight with Marsh, Marsh Pushes Saze's bag 'o goodies at him and the rings penetrate into his abdomen. Sazed (has to?) pull the bag out of the wound to allow it to close, but the rings stay within him. Why is this? The Gold should have rejected the foreign, and poisonous, metal from the body but it does not.

 

Miles the Double Gold, is shot numerous times. During the warehouse scene, Wax gives him a double dose of bird shot at point blank. The pellets strike (Wax has anchor), penetrate (Wax has no anchor), are rejected by Mile's healing and pushed out (Wax has anchor and Pushes). Also Mile's bracer Metal-Minds penetrate the skin, why are these not pushed out? I can accept that they wrap around the arm completely, but what about the slivers in his muscles, there's not reason for these to remain in the body.

 

Thoughts?

[Kurkistan]

Probably the same reason why you sometimes get scars, as Phantom and I discussed here. I would guess that slower/less intense healing can leave you essentially whole but not perfectly healed.

 

Alternatively, Miles' body only rejected those pieces of buckshot that were actually doing him damage, and there's still some in there that were left in place because they weren't doing any harm. That'd be an uncomfortable end of the day for him, digging out all the stuff shot into his body.

[DocHoliday]

I had completely forgotten the Inquisitors scars. In your thread I'm leaning on 4.2 since any non-Hemalurgical healing we see leaves no marks. I'm off the opinion that running out of Gold during healing is similar to Stormlight healing, closing the smallest wounds, reducing the major ones. Not leaving scars based on the rate of Tapping, IMO

 

As to the idea of shot being left in Miles'body. Bullets are almost universally made with lead, which is extremely poisonous in the body. You'd think that would be the first thing healing got rid of. Gold isn't readily poisonous, but slivers in the muscles would cause continuous damage.

[Kurkistan]

The thread goes on for quite a bit, and I made some mistakes in the OP. For instance: Sazed has scars from when he had those rings surgically removed between WoA and HoA, despite the fact that he used Feruchemical gold to heal after the surgery.

[DocHoliday]

Ya I stopped reading after the 4th or 5th post...Still scars are of topic, why is the metal left in the body?

[Kurkistan]

Forgive me, but I think scars are the topic. The question at hand, to generalize, is "Under what circumstances does the application of Feruchemical gold leave the body in a state that, while technically healthy, is less 'whole' than it was beforehand" Both scars and having metal embedded in you are generally considered unhealthy, and yet both states sometimes exist after the application of Feruchemical gold.

 

Perhaps it's a rather nuanced case of Cognitive perception? The mind very actively--and very easily, it would seem--determining whether or not to leave metal in, or to grow scar tissue. It could be the case that Sazed wanted to have scars from a rather traumatic period in his life, that Inquisitors--being of Ruin--favor the costly price for healing that scars evoke.

 

Similarly, Miles gets to keep his embedded goldminds because he sees them as part of himself, while he rejects the buckshot. Perhaps it's the case that Sazed wanted, on some level, to keep his metalminds embedded within his body during his fight with Marsh, and afterword either he didn't realize he could simply "reheal" to remove them or it was the case that his body, already "healed" wouldn't do so.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Claincy]

I think it's also possible that it would take substantially more gold to eject the metalminds using it than to have them cut out then heal the wounds. Your still going to have to heal roughly the same amount of injury either way but getting them removed surgically you don't have to waste Feruchemical gold pushing them out.

[skaa]

Invested objects like Metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes are known to be somewhat resistant to the effects of other forms of Investiture. (Could someone please post the relevant WoB? I'm on my phone right now. Thanks!) That could be why Gold Feruchemy can't push Metalminds out of the user's body.

Edited July 23, 2013 by skaa

[DocHoliday]

Alright I read through you and Phantom arguing over stumpage. Essentially you both came to the conclusion that 1 unit of healing and 100 units of healing can obtain the same results (exempting the unique case of regrowing limbs), albeit slower. Correct? 

 

BTW I read Phantom quoting the Sazed example, it doesn't say he used Feruchemical gold to take care of the wound. After all he wouldn't need a surgeon if had Gold, he could open himself up and heal. Which would still leave the HfGold theory open. 

 

But the Cognitive aspect...interesting. How one views themselves is what their template is. That would explain why Inquisitors Spikes aren't pushed out either. But does that mean a paraplegic, who discovered he was a Bookmaker years later, couldn't walk no matter how much he Tapped?

[Shardlet]

The thought others have put forward, and that I subscribe to, is that in the case of an amputee, the body has already healed even though it is not whole.  In the case of paralysis, I couldn't say without more research since I don't know if the spinal cord is ever 'healed'.  As to the cognitive idea, it would depend, I suppose, on the individual.  Have they internalized their present condition such that it is an integral part of their cognitive makeup?  Or, have they never mentally healed and continue to cognitively consider themselves to be a fully able person but with a persistent injury?  Seems like, in situations like that, there would be no universal answer.

 

Edit: Dang lower case I!

Edited July 23, 2013 by Shardlet

[aeromancer]

I just thought Inquisitors left scars as part of the whole "intimidation" effect, and Sazed didn't heal the scar because it required unnecessary levels of stored healing. 

[Kurkistan]

@Ffnord

 

That still leaves Miles an enigma.

 

@skaa

 

Ooh, nice idea. I like it. Here's the quote you were looking for. It may not apply to things like embedded objects, though, since their ejection is more of a side-effect than the goal: they're being pushed out by normal flesh as it regrows as a result of Investiture, but the Investiture is neither aimed at them nor affecting them directly.

 

@Doc

 

I'm unsure how you can read anything but "Sazed stored health before his surgery so that he could use it to recover from his surgery" from that quote. I imagine that it's easier to heal  up the effects of a minimally invasive surgery than a crude backyard surgery.

 

@Doc & Shardlet

 

Sorry, I'd assumed it was common knowledge. Cognitive aspects do govern magical healing in the Cosmere.

 

@aeromancer

 

There's still the question of how. The Inquisitor that Vin punched an arrow through the face of in HoA had scars within the hour, IIRC. Hardly enough time to change Cognitive aspects as we normally discuss them (though perhaps they're more sensitive than we give them credit for...). So is it a conscious choice? A matter of slow tapping or tapping differently or...?

Edited July 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[DocHoliday]

Common knowledge to the Wizards of Cosmere perhaps

 

I know it's knit picking, and you do have a point about minimally invasive surgery, but it doesn't say he used the healing. It could be a just in case scenario.

 

And to the Kurk-Skaa line: I think you miss typed Kurk? Skaa states that the Metal-Minds wouldn't be affected by Sazed healing, but your interpretation is that metal is elected as a side effect. nevermind...

 

@Shardlet. So you're of the opinion a wound that heals over naturally can't be Feruchemical gold healed? Or that it requires an individual to still Cognitively think of themselves as whatever they were pre-wound.

[Claincy]

I wasn't even touching miles there, that little possibility was completely irrelevant to him. Truth is that we still don't understand properly how gold works. With appropriately huge quantities of Feruchemical gold over an extended period of time it might be possible to subtly change your base state that Feruchemical gold restores you to. The thing that still gets me about it is the fixing of limbs cut by a shardblade. I was fairly sure that the shardblade caused spiritual damage not physical meaning Feruchemical gold could restore spiritual as well which would leave it open to all kinds of possibilities. Have we got any further detail on that?

[Satsuoni]

I think that in case of Sazed, he didn't have enough healing in those rings to push them out at first, and they became either internalized or, once the skin closed, the healing won't open it up to push external objects out (since that would require to damage tissue for a while). Which brings us to Miles: assuming his metalminds were rings going part of the way under his skin, healing wouldn't be able to push them out without ripping that skin first, and after a while they would count as part of the body, or close enough.

The Hema spikes, on the other hand, are vital organs in and of themselves, so healing them out seems counter-intuitive. (Well, the larger ones are). They are part of the body and soul, unless removed. (Though I wonder what would happen to a Hema Koloss that happens to be a Bloodmaker if his spikes are removed while he is tapping. Will he become human again?)

 

Shardblade does indeed do damage to the soul, it is in the same reddit quote. So apparently Feruchemical gold heals the soul as well, at least to an extent.

[Claincy]

Given that and I am pretty certain we had confirmation that it was possible to access someone else's metalminds, through haemalurgy if no other way. Now, what happens if you tap a ridiculous amount of someone else's identity and Feruchemical gold at the same time. It could, in theory, change you to be like them. Now we don't understand identity really at all. We just know that there is a lot about it that we don't know yet. SO, lets take things a step further and say the person who's identity they are tapping, was a mistborn, had been for a long time, fundamental part of who they were. Given that Feruchemical gold can change spiritual, it could, in theory *fix* the persons spiritual dna to make them a mistborn.

 

Edit: ok, mistborn is a bad example because they would need to be a ferring as well to store the identity. But if they were a twinborn it makes more sense. Or a keeper would be easiest as they could store the Feruchemical gold too. Alternatively if the recipient was a bloodmaker already that would make things easier.

 

Obviously this is wild speculation. We simply don't know enough about identity or gold to tell. But even if the mistborn granty bit isn't correct I think it is very likely that you could use this to fix problems that were ingrained to the person, like for example if they had been born blind this method could potentially fix that.

Edited July 23, 2013 by lord_Ffnord

[Satsuoni]

Given that and I am pretty certain we had confirmation that it was possible to access someone else's metalminds, through haemalurgy if no other way. Now, what happens if you tap a ridiculous amount of someone else's identity and Feruchemical gold at the same time. It could, in theory, change you to be like them. Now we don't understand identity really at all. We just know that there is a lot about it that we don't know yet. SO, lets take things a step further and say the person who's identity they are tapping, was a mistborn, had been for a long time, fundamental part of who they were. Given that Feruchemical gold can change spiritual, it could, in theory *fix* the persons spiritual dna to make them a mistborn.

 

Edit: ok, mistborn is a bad example because they would need to be a ferring as well to store the identity. But if they were a twinborn it makes more sense. Or a keeper would be easiest as they could store the Feruchemical gold too. Alternatively if the recipient was a bloodmaker already that would make things easier.

 

Obviously this is wild speculation. We simply don't know enough about identity or gold to tell. But even if the mistborn granty bit isn't correct I think it is very likely that you could use this to fix problems that were ingrained to the person, like for example if they had been born blind this method could potentially fix that.

Potentially, but since Identity (as far as we know) can reverse you to a previous state, doing that while fixing the Spiritual changes with Feruchemical gold would probably change you into that person permanently and completely. As in, you might gain their abilities, but you'd also gain their body, and probably mess up your mind to the point you won't be able to identify as yourself anymore. Or even end up merging your two souls... Better to learn partial Hemalurgy, and rip out all the person's abilities, I'd say (before mercy killing). You have slightly less chance of going insane that way, as long as you keep away from Human attributes...

 

As you say, we don't know enough about Identity.

[Claincy]

True its not an, ideal, process. Due to the rather drastic side effects I don't think you would get many people going for it. But, the advantage of it over haemalurgy is that you don't need to steal the power from the target, you actually replicate it. So I could imagine some obviously bad guy taking someone with, um, limited mental capacity who could store identity + some other allomantic or the rest of the feruchemic powers and essentially creating an army of clones of them from ordinary people.

[Pechvarry]

Nothing to add. Just wanted ffnord to know i downvoted when trying to upvote... Again.

Those icons are far too close on mobile, and I've found no undo.

[Kurkistan]

Here's the relevant question, asked by a handsome and intelligent devil, if I may say so:
 

Source:

Kurkistan:

2. Does a limb that has been "severed" by a Shardblade have any Hemalurgic bindpoints? If the same limb was then cut off more conventionally, would a Bloodmaker ferring be able to grow it back?

 

Brandon:
2) A severed Shardblade limb needs repair to the soul before it would function again. A Bloodmaker would be able to heal it without needing to grow it back.

 
@Pechvarry
 
No problem, I offset you. Someone else can add another upvote to restore the natural order, if they would be so kind. I find that it helps to pinch down to an absurd level of zoom and then be very very gingerly when trying to upvote on a phone.

[Claincy]

@Pechvarry  It's no worry, phone controls can be darn finicky when there are buttons close together =) (and thanks Kurkistan)

[DocHoliday]

Here's the relevant question, asked by a handsome and intelligent devil, if I may say so:

 

Source:

 

@Pechvarry

 

No problem, I offset you. Someone else can add another upvote to restore the natural order, if they would be so kind. I find that it helps to pinch down to an absurd level of zoom and then be very very gingerly when trying to upvote on a phone.

Fixed up vote.

Alright, so we can determine that Feruchemical gold repairs ones Spiritual Web, and bases what needs to be done to repair the Physical body by what the individual's sense of themself in the Cognitive realm is.  

 

Now in one respect,  it makes sense that the Feruchemical gold' s attempt to heal Sazed body left the rings in on the basis that he didn't have enough Charge on tap to push them out of the body. 

 

However Miles has never been short on Feruchemical gold. That implies that the slivers in his body have been internalized by him to such a degree that he believes the Gold is a part of him.

 

What about TLR? Before killing Kelsier he is run through by a spear. He walks and talks like it's not even there, implying he's tapping . Good heavily. He certainly didn't believe the spear was apart of his body, yet it remains jammed in his chest...?

[Kurkistan]

Savant-level Allomantic pewter, storing touch in Feruchemical tin, Miles-level "I don't feel pain any more", a slow but steady trickle of Health... He could manage it without needing to immediately expel the spear. It might also have been too big to be pushed out "unaided" by Feruchemical gold alone.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

So you are a devil, Kurk? I always thought of you more like a talking cat

 

Yes, I think that large pieces cannot be pushed out by gold alone, and they won't get pushed out if the exit wound is closed over first (probably). Also, I am relatively sure earrings, for example, do not get pushed out. So it is a matter of how much you tap, how deep the piercing goes and whether it can be pushed out by closing the wound. So stuff in your abdominal cavity would probably stay there, for example.

[DocHoliday]

/>Savant-level Allomantic pewter, storing touch in Feruchemical tin, Miles-level "I don't feel pain any more", a slow but steady trickle of Health... He could manage it without needing to immediately expel the spear. It might also have been too big to be pushed out "unaided" by Feruchemical gold alone.

TLR was near savant, not savant. But I see your point.

/>So you are a devil, Kurk? I always thought of you more like a talking cat

Yes, I think that large pieces cannot be pushed out by gold alone, and they won't get pushed out if the exit wound is closed over first (probably). Also, I am relatively sure earrings, for example, do not get pushed out. So it is a matter of how much you tap, how deep the piercing goes and whether it can be pushed out by closing the wound. So stuff in your abdominal cavity would probably stay there, for example.

If I saw a cat talking I'd be like "el Diablo!! €|Diabloooo!!!“

I think you're correct about the earrings and such as Terrismen regularly wear them, including Sazed.

Also to note is that I don't think level of Tapping makes a difference. My champion Miles sticks himself with an Aluminum knife and it isn't ejected. I'm starting to think that perhaps Feruchemical gold doesn't affect anything the user doesn't want it to..

Edit: grammar..damnation swype

Edited July 24, 2013 by DocHoliday