Do we *need* Downvoting?

[Yados]

I understand why we have an upvote system and I like earning reputation posts as much as anyone does.  

 

But there's obviously something else going on with downvotes.

 

For one, everyone gets to decide for themselves what the criteria is for a downvote, which makes it inherently subjective and almost impossible to avoid. As is upvoting, of course, but it doesn't have the same potential to drive posters away. 

 

And that, I suppose, is the ultimate problem with the downvotes. They're stacked against newer posters, who come on here, make a few threads that theorize or assume things that other posters don't like or otherwise clash with whatever imagines that the board's aesthetic is supposed to be, get downvoted into the negative, and then get downvoted even more for having a (usually pretty minor by internet standards) outburst.  

 

This has happened on at least two occasions I've seen, probably more times I haven't seen. 

 

And since this seems to happen to new posters, even if only one or two people downvote them, that usually puts them in the red. And then they have a big red sign on all their posts that reads "Lamespren" which, in some cases, drives them away. 

 

So I have to wonder what we gain from this system that allows semi-anonymous bullying that more likely than not disproportionately affects newer posters. Besides, of course, a more insular niche community. 

 

And being an insular niche community would be an okay thing to be, I suppose, were this not "The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite". Doesn't that obligate us to be a bit more inclusive and tolerate people who annoy us or are engaging with the subject matter in a different way?

 

If someone is breaking forum rules, then surely the admins can deal with that, right? We don't have to pin a big red letter on all their posts. We don't need this separate system of forum vigilante justice. 

 

Do we?

 

I've come with four solutions. I don't know if any of them are feasible because I do not know anything about making forums or websites. Just using them.

 

1) Get rid of negative rep points. 

 

2) Hide negative rep points. If someone has negative points, the counter just goes to zero and it doesn't go off zero until the points have a positive balance. 

 

3) Disable downvotes. Because, really, what do we gain?

 

4) Disable the rep system. Because if we can only have both or none, none is probably better. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Observer]

What if there was simply a way to undo upvotes, or a person could not be downvoted past, say, 30 reputation, or maybe could not be downvoted if too new or more than twice a day. Getting rid of it seems a little extreme, as the system does have its uses, but the problems you mentioned about it can be fixed.

[Kurkistan he/him]

We had a fairly full discussion about this awhile back, if you'd like to see some of the Admins' reasons for retaining downvotes.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I *really* dislike systems that have the ability to upvote and not downvote.

It means that the amount of reputation members have serves exactly the same purpose as postcount - that is, as a rough indicator of how long the person's been around.

[Observer]

UtopiaGreen01 was mentioned in the linked post and MAN, that stuff is amazing. Classic example for downrate-worthy poster.

[Rubix he/him]

I understand why we have an upvote system and I like earning reputation posts as much as anyone does.  

 

But there's obviously something else going on with downvotes.

 

For one, everyone gets to decide for themselves what the criteria is for a downvote, which makes it inherently subjective and almost impossible to avoid. As is upvoting, of course, but it doesn't have the same potential to drive posters away. 

 

And that, I suppose, is the ultimate problem with the downvotes. They're stacked against newer posters, who come on here, make a few threads that theorize or assume things that other posters don't like or otherwise clash with whatever imagines that the board's aesthetic is supposed to be, get downvoted into the negative, and then get downvoted even more for having a (usually pretty minor by internet standards) outburst.  

 

This has happened on at least two occasions I've seen, probably more times I haven't seen. 

 

And since this seems to happen to new posters, even if only one or two people downvote them, that usually puts them in the red. And then they have a big red sign on all their posts that reads "Lamespren" which, in some cases, drives them away. 

 

So I have to wonder what we gain from this system that allows semi-anonymous bullying that more likely than not disproportionately affects newer posters. Besides, of course, a more insular niche community. 

 

And being an insular niche community would be an okay thing to be, I suppose, were this not "The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite". Doesn't that obligate us to be a bit more inclusive and tolerate people who annoy us or are engaging with the subject matter in a different way?

 

If someone is breaking forum rules, then surely the admins can deal with that, right? We don't have to pin a big red letter on all their posts. We don't need this separate system of forum vigilante justice. 

 

Do we?

 

I've come with four solutions. I don't know if any of them are feasible because I do not know anything about making forums or websites. Just using them.

 

1) Get rid of negative rep points. 

 

2) Hide negative rep points. If someone has negative points, the counter just goes to zero and it doesn't go off zero until the points have a positive balance. 

 

3) Disable downvotes. Because, really, what do we gain?

 

4) Disable the rep system. Because if we can only have both or none, none is probably better. 

 

The reputation system is going to stay right where it is, thanks muchly. I'm always for input, but not when that input is "My change is the only way, and you need to change it RIGHT NOW". It tends to make me very unlikely to listen to what you have to say. But to be fair, I'm going to go through your post and respond to it in a very detailed manner.

 

You like your positive reputation, and from what I've gathered, many do. As Phantom points out though, upvotes without downvotes are less than useless. As you can earn upvotes, you can also earn downvotes, so I'm not sure entirely what you mean by "something else is going on with downvotes". It's all subjective, that is very true, but I'm not going to give a line by line criteria of what can or cannot (or should or shouldn't) be downvoted, or upvoted. I tend to go with "Was it Awesome, Totally Correct, In the negative for no good reason, or very Polite? Upvote", and "Rude, Incorrect, or Abrasive? Downvote". But that's my subjective reasoning behind either. And they're not stacked against newer posters. I've seen more fits over rep from people who have been here more than six months than any new posters. I'm not going to try to count how many times I've had someone PM me saying "Oh, my rep went down by two, someone's abusing the rep system", so don't assume that we only see problems with it from new people. That said, I've actually seen people throw a fit because their rep isn't as high as someone else's, and they want me to tell them how to catch up. As for what we have to gain, there's a lot to be gained by a random sampling of people's general reaction to your post, and to your posts overall. It gives a feel (at random) of what people thought of your post.

 

I'm going to take a break here from my rant about reputation to respond to your comments about us being "The official Brandon Sanderson fansite". I'm VERY aware of the responsibilities that entails. I think about it daily, and am constantly trying to come up with ways to make it better because of what we are as "official". Not only are we the official Brandon fansite, but we're also the official Brandon forums (TWG is dead, it's not coming back), as well as the official Writing Excuses forums. When people want to discuss their works, they're pointed here. So yes, I take being the official fansite seriously, and administrate the site accordingly. I have talked with Brandon a number of times regarding site moderation, and he agrees with our policies, and trusts our judgement in the managing of the site.

 

And yes, we admins do take site rules very seriously. People who are breaking rules are informed of their infraction, as well as having any appropriate action taken against them (Such as losing the ability to give reputation if they've recently been abusing the reputation system). We don't hang a red letter on these and try to keep it behind the scenes, because we try to give everyone a chance for a fresh shot (Mind, there have been a few times when someone felt the need to respond abrasively to a polite invitation to not be a dick to other members, and they're not around anymore). The people who have a red letter on them are those who the community feels needs to shore up their posting habits, whether it's not being as rude, or not posting their own theories as absolute fact and freaking out when someone corrects them.

 

As for your proposed solutions:

 

1) Umm. No. That suggestion seems an awful lot like either two or three...

2) That's almost as bad as number one. We've considered it, but it would be entirely too much work to implement, plus, we want people to be able to see their rep as it IS, not a bleached version of reality. How bad would you feel if you saw that you were at 0 rep, posted an awesome post that got 7 upvotes, and you still showed 0 afterwards because you were at -10 before, and now you're at -3. Also, I don't want to deal with those same cases PMing me asking me why the rep system is broken and asking for it to be fixed.

3) For reasons listed above, this one is out the window because with only up and no down, it becomes less of reputation, and more of "How long has this person been here?" That's not acceptable.

4) I like the reputation system, and I think it performs admirably. I think it's awesome to see your rep climb higher and higher as you post more and more awesome things. And I like to know when I post a controversial post, too. Because if I can choose between knowing when I'm awesome and when I'm being rude or not knowing that people are taking offense at what I'm saying until there's a massive blowup, I'm going to take the first, thanks.

 

TL;DR: It's staying. Thanks for your input.

[Shivertongue he/him]

Josh covered everything I would have said, but there is an aspect I feel that is important that I want to expand upon.

 

To quote David Brin, "Criticism is the only known antidote to error." The reputation system is more than just a way for people to show that they like or dislike something, or a way to bring good content to the forefront. It is anonymous constructive criticism, which is how I use it. 

 

Writers, artists, designers, and other people in creative fields know the value of criticism. The only way one can improve what they do is to find out what they are doing well AND what they are doing poorly. The former so that they know their strengths and know what to bring focus to, and the latter so that they are aware of their weaknesses, where they need to improve, and what they have to put effort into. The most useless type of critique is one where nothing bad is ever said; it provides you with minimal useful information, and can result in someone stagnating at the level they are at, with no desire to try and take themselves higher.

 

"But Shiv, you handsome devil," I hear you say. "Many of use are not artists or writers. How does this apply to us?"

 

The answer is simple, my good chumling; constructive criticism is of value to EVERYONE, regardless of what you do. This is where we tie things into the reputation system. I view upvotes as encouragement, a way of saying without words that "You just posted something awesome for one reason or another, and it meets my approval. I would like to see more like this." Downvotes are viewed the same way - "I do not think this post was necessary, or perhaps you just didn't present things clearly. You might want to keep an eye on this in the future."

 

Admittedly, the anonymous nature of the system limits the amount of advice on can give, although you are of course free to post your reasons in a response. But the most important aspect of negative criticism is that it should not be against YOU PERSONALLY. Anytime someone attacks you, rather than gives feedback on what you've done, you are free to ignore their opinions, forever. If you believe this is happening with the reputation system, contact an admin and they can verify and then take appropriate action.

 

To shut yourself off from criticism is to isolate yourself into a little bubble of static unreality.

 

Long story short, as Josh said, the reputation system is staying as it is. Long story slightly-less short, use the reputation system intelligently and without malice, and get as much as you can from it. Yes, we do NEED downvoting.

[Yados]

The reputation system is going to stay right where it is, thanks muchly. I'm always for input, but not when that input is "My change is the only way, and you need to change it RIGHT NOW". It tends to make me very unlikely to listen to what you have to say. But to be fair, I'm going to go through your post and respond to it in a very detailed manner.

 

TL;DR: It's staying. Thanks for your input.

 

Well I certainly didn't mean to come off as if I was demanding something or imply that "my change is the only way". I tried to ask a question. Do we need this?

 

If it came off differently, that was probably a mixture of haste (I was writing at work) and not realizing I had hit upon something that appears to be a sensitive issue. 

 

Certainly, my suggestions to what I perceived to be a problem aren't rooted in anything I know about site moderation. Like I said, I don't have any experience 

 

Reading your post though, you seem to be responding more towards my perceived tone than the things I pointed out. Maybe you see more of one thing than another thing. There's probably more going on behind the scenes of the site. I just see the surface stuff.

 

Regardless, I wanted this to be more of a discussion. I think you perceived it as an attack and responded accordingly. 

 

Look, I posted because I saw something I thought was a problem. We get newer posters and they get negative reps. Sometimes because they make a lot of threads or do something else annoying. They sometimes disappear. 

 

You, apparently, don't think that's a problem. You didn't respond to that part of my post. You didn't even respond to my suggestion that we get rid of negative rep (-1, -2, -10) and the big red thing and "lamespren" label that comes with it. You just said no and that it sounded like my other suggestions, which were bad. I guess that meant getting rid of negative rep was a bad idea too?

 

I'm still not sure it is. I don't see why we need big red things on some poster's avatars that tell whichever thread they post in that they're unpopular on the boards. What is the purpose of that? 

 

If you want some people to have some rep and some people to not a lot of rep and for that to be somewhat meaningful because the same people who upvote, based on their own subjective ideas of what deserves to be upvoted, can also downvote something based on another set of idiosyncratic ideas about what that's supposed to mean, then fine. The system isn't that onerous. 

 

But why not put a floor on that?

 

The red things are not friendly. They are not nice. And most of the people who get them are just hapless casuals. 

Edited April 26, 2013 by Yados

[Phantom Monstrosity]

That said, it would be nice to be able to change our votes on a particular post.

I'd be fine with leaving the box the same color regardless of + or -, though.

And I agree that 'lamespren' is a little insulting.

If we're trying for minimal changes, I'd suggest 'skaa' for the 0 to -10 range, and leave it gray for those numbers(as the +0, 17th shard trainee is now). 'Lamespren' in red for -10 and lower seems more fair. You shouldn't have anything turn red until you've shown a pattern of lameness.

As an aside, listing + and - seperately instead of the sum might be interesting, not sure how feasible it would be to implement.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Observer]

What PM said. Lamespren is a little eye-catching, and it's not hard for newbies to make mistakes and be perma-branded for it. Skaa is a much better way of putting it. I'm not sure how I feel about seperate listings though.

[Yados]

 

Josh covered everything I would have said, but there is an aspect I feel that is important that I want to expand upon.

 

To quote David Brin, "Criticism is the only known antidote to error." The reputation system is more than just a way for people to show that they like or dislike something, or a way to bring good content to the forefront. It is anonymous constructive criticism, which is how I use it. 

 

Writers, artists, designers, and other people in creative fields know the value of criticism. The only way one can improve what they do is to find out what they are doing well AND what they are doing poorly. The former so that they know their strengths and know what to bring focus to, and the latter so that they are aware of their weaknesses, where they need to improve, and what they have to put effort into. The most useless type of critique is one where nothing bad is ever said; it provides you with minimal useful information, and can result in someone stagnating at the level they are at, with no desire to try and take themselves higher.

 

"But Shiv, you handsome devil," I hear you say. "Many of use are not artists or writers. How does this apply to us?"

 

The answer is simple, my good chumling; constructive criticism is of value to EVERYONE, regardless of what you do. This is where we tie things into the reputation system. I view upvotes as encouragement, a way of saying without words that "You just posted something awesome for one reason or another, and it meets my approval. I would like to see more like this." Downvotes are viewed the same way - "I do not think this post was necessary, or perhaps you just didn't present things clearly. You might want to keep an eye on this in the future."

 

Admittedly, the anonymous nature of the system limits the amount of advice on can give, although you are of course free to post your reasons in a response. But the most important aspect of negative criticism is that it should not be against YOU PERSONALLY. Anytime someone attacks you, rather than gives feedback on what you've done, you are free to ignore their opinions, forever. If you believe this is happening with the reputation system, contact an admin and they can verify and then take appropriate action.

 

To shut yourself off from criticism is to isolate yourself into a little bubble of static unreality.

 

Long story short, as Josh said, the reputation system is staying as it is. Long story slightly-less short, use the reputation system intelligently and without malice, and get as much as you can from it. Yes, we do NEED downvoting.

... yeah. 

 

Shivertongue, I don't think we see this the same way at all and I don't think we are going to have a fruitful discussion on the merits of any system of popularity. 

 

We do not agree on this at all.

 

If you are submitting something for criticism or asking someone their opinion, then criticism is expected and appropriate. 

 

If you are posting in an online community for people who like an author's books, which is advertised on the author's site as a place for people to come and talk about books, then arbitrary, anonymous, systemized criticism is neither expected nor appropriate. 

 

If people are having a discussion, then criticism of a particular idea or premise is appropriate within the confines of that discussion. Articulated criticism. From one person to another person. (Sort of) face to face. 

 

This is not even a little bit the same thing and it does all the things that you say criticism shouldn't do. It isn't constructive. It isn't on point. It's just a number that follows someone from thread to thread without any context. 

 

And it doesn't, as you said, bring anything to the forefront. Unless, I guess, you don't read anything by posters with low rep. This isn't a reddit system where higher repped posts are more visible. That's a whole different thing. If this was a post by post system, I wouldn't have these concerns. 

 

Edited April 26, 2013 by Yados

[Shivertongue he/him]

 

... yeah. 

 

Shivertongue, I don't think we see this the same way at all and I don't think we are going to have a fruitful discussion on the merits of any system of popularity. 

 

We do not agree on this at all.

 

If you are submitting something for criticism or asking someone their opinion, then criticism is expected and appropriate. 

 

If you are posting in an online community for people who like an author's books, which is advertised on the author's site as a place for people to come and talk about books, then arbitrary, anonymous, systemized criticism is neither expected nor appropriate. 

 

If people are having a discussion, then criticism of a particular idea or premise is appropriate within the confines of that discussion. Articulated criticism. From one person to another person. (Sort of) face to face. 

 

This is not even a little bit the same thing and it does all the things that you say criticism shouldn't do. It isn't constructive. It isn't on point. It's just a number that follows someone from thread to thread without any context. 

 

And it doesn't, as you said, bring anything to the forefront. Unless, I guess, you don't read anything by posters with low rep. This isn't a reddit system where higher repped posts are more visible. That's a whole different thing. If this was a post by post system, I wouldn't have these concerns. 

 

You want to have a discussion. 

 

 

• discussion |disˈkə sh ən|

   noun

   Definition:

   The action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.

 

 

My offering of ideas was me contributing to the proposed discussion, presenting my own views on the matter. My views happen to be different from yours; why does this mean that a discussion will not be fruitful? A discussion that consists of people who only agree with you is going to be even less fruitful. I refer you back to my previous post in regards to that.

 

That said, I may have obfuscated my own point. What I was trying to say, is that reputation system is meant to encourage good posting habits in general. If you find yourself being downvoted for a post, perhaps you should look at you content and figure out exactly why people are downvoting you. If every topic you start gets a downvote, perhaps consider that people don't think the topic is useful, and that they might be considering it to be board-cluttering spam.

 

I operate on the principle of 'Assume Good Faith'; the principle that negative rep is not intended as a personal attack, but as a general opinion. Rep should not be taken seriously. It's numbers on a website, and has no effect on your life outside of this website.

[Chaos he/him]

Thank you for your feedback Yados.

I think Josh and Will adequately explained my general support of downvotes. I do feel it can be conducive to good discussion. Can it be abused? Certainly, and I think I speak for every admin that we definitely do not want or tolerate downvote abuse.

I do believe that reputation is a self-correcting thing, and that 17th Shard is an incredibly nice community overall. I have faith in our members that if they feel something is downvote worthy, they downvote it. And, if other members see a post that does not warrant a downvote, then I see that post being upvoted, to equalize it out. That happens a ton. I know I always make a point to be liberal with my upvotes and do that all the time. When people have good ideas, I always upvote them. I think the issue is a lot less understated than you think. I have seen more in the past week or so (like two instances). I certainly don't think it is indicative of a larger trend at this point.

We've talked things over as admins and have agreed that a -1 reputation shouldn't warrant a giant red flag. We do want people to feel welcome. We'll be changing the reputation bar to display as grey between -5 and 5, so that -6 and below will be red, and 6 and above will be green. The title for that will stay "17th Shard Trainee". We think that will be better. I'm planning to get that changed tonight or tomorrow.

As for some of the other issues: we'd love to be able to make it so you can change your vote after you've given rep, but we can't do that right now. If you're feeling especially guilty over a downvote, feel free to go into their recent posts and give them two upvotes. We also can't separate out the two types of rep, as nice as it would be, it's just not going to be doable right now.

I would also argue that if we had positive-only reputation, then people would ask the ability to downvote stuff. One way or the other, no matter what we do, someone's going to be unhappy. I mean, how many Facebook pages are there asking for a Dislike button? A freaking lot.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Well, let's just say I agree with Yados. And now, onto rant.

 

Before that, several disclaimers:

1. I rarely interact with other people, and I try to avoid generalization. Hence I can and do only speak for myself. I don't know how other people feel, don't understand them, and hence cannot say if they are hurt by something or not.

 

2. 17th shard (forums and chat) accounts, by my current estimate, to about 70% of my total social interaction. Hence, stuff that happens here is important. I am aware of being pathetic, needing to get a life, etc. Please do not comment on that.

 

3. Likewise I am aware of the flaws in my thought processes. Please do not point that out again.

 

4. I also know that as my opinion, this  post is worthless.

 

Now, downvotes. In general, they affect me extremely negatively. As a kind of perfectionist, the impact of any judgement on me is naturally biased towards negative. As in, one downvote is equal to 10 to 100 upvotes, more if it brings a new post into the red. (that also means that I rarely post on the thread I agree with, since it is default.) Analysis of downvotes I have received shows them to be, well, random. Some posts are more likely to get them, but in general *any* posts can be. Hence, to avoid shock that comes with downvote, I post less, especially of the personal stuff like simple fanart. Also, my natural inclination is to hide the offending post, for it was judged unworthy, so it is not upvoted again (since it is invisible). The above applies only to the time when I  think rationally, however. When my impulse control slips, due to the varying circumstances, I may post whatever consequences be hanged (a good example is this post), which would, of course, result in downvotes (since the tone of the posts is not well calibrated), which would fray my mind further and make control slips more frequent.

 

That is particularly true for the downvotes, the reason for which I do not understand. If I post a sugestion of Feruchemy formula in a thread discussing Feruchemy formulas, and it gets downvoted without any explanation whatsoever by I don't know who, that is aggravating. Downvote, sure, but at least explain why, anonymously or not. Otherwise, I'll just assume that my post is highly offensive for reasons unknown, and  hide it / ask Mods to delete it if it is OP.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Rubix
Was that last bit REALLY unnecessary?

[KChan she/her]

The other admins have summed up my feelings on the rep system very well, so I won't even be getting into that. I feel that it's fine the way it is, and so does what appears to be most of the site.

I can remember one, MAYBE two times off the top of my head where someone has been caught abusing the rep system, and those issues were quickly and appropriately dealt with behind the scenes. You guys didn't see it displayed on the front page of the site, because that's not how we do things around here. We believe in dignity and privacy, and don't air others' dirty laundry in public. That's just not cool.

Satsuoni: Do you really think the admins are so petty as to pursue those who downvote us and exact our revenge? Yes, we have certain permissions on the forum that no one else does. We can see information that no one else does. Having access to that information has allowed us to ban spam accounts, catch people attempting to scam the site or abuse the reputation system, and get rid of useless multiple accounts. Not once have we taken advantage of the information we have access to, because that's seriously not cool. We take people's privacy and our responsibility as admins seriously, even though we like to goof off and act silly. That's one of the core parts of being an admin in the first place, and I find it hard to believe that anyone would think Rubix and FRR, as the founders of this site, would choose anyone as co-admins who don't understand that.

Or you could think of it this way: you trust your bank, your employer, your doctor, and any number of other people with your social security number, the single most important piece of identification someone can have (at least if you live in the United States). I think you can trust a few of us to handle imaginary numbers handed out over the internet.

The thing that gets me the most, honestly, is that I've been back on the site for less than a week and I've seen more drama over the existence of the rep system in these few days than I've seen issues with people abusing the rep system in my entire time on the site. Seeing as how I was one of the first registered members ever, that's saying something. And it's been, for the most part, the same people involved in the rep debate. Everyone else seems mostly content with the system, at least judging by their lack of complaint. To me, that's more telling than anything else.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I downvoted KChan's post solely because she just promised not to get revenge on me.

Neener neener!

[Voidus]

I'm happy with the Admins reasons for the downvotes, I think it's quite necessary sometimes, it might be nice if there was a way to anonymously leave a comment attached to each up or downvote for criticisms or to explain why, but that'd probably be way to difficult, I don't think it's really a problem for most members, except sometimes the newer members who go into negative which could be disheartening but that's already been addressed. I really like the 'popular' tags that were added a while ago too, I thought they're a great way to encourage really awesome topics and posts.

[KChan she/her]

I downvoted KChan's post solely because she just promised not to get revenge on me.

Neener neener!

And is my life coming to a screeching halt? Is my house burning down? Am I tracing your IP address so I can break in to your house and smash your computer? No, because at the end of the day, it's pixels on a screen. See, guys? Downvotes aren't that bad. It's okay. They happen. Edited April 26, 2013 by KChan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

And is my life coming to a screeching halt? Is my house burning down? Am I tracing your IP address so I can break in to your house and smash your computer?

BRB, looking out window.

[Rubix he/him]

Is my house burning down?

 

Well, yes, but it's an unrelated incident. *Tosses another incendiary through the window*

[Shivertongue he/him]

Well, yes, but it's an unrelated incident. *Tosses another incendiary through the window*

 

Nothing to worry about, people. 

 

*tosses an incendiary through the other window*

 

This is just how we welcome staff back from sabbaticals.

[KChan she/her]

Jeeze, I hand out welcome cookies to people and when it's my turn to be welcomed, I get arson? Seriously guys, where's the love?

[Shivertongue he/him]

Jeeze, I hand out welcome cookies to people and when it's my turn to be welcomed, I get arson? Seriously guys, where's the love?

 

What, you can't feel the heat of our burning, fiery love?

[firstRainbowRose she/her]

OOo, pretty fire!  *starts roasting marshmellow*

 

S'more?  *offers to kchan*

[Rubix he/him]

What, you can't feel the heat of our burning, fiery love?

 

Well, she is in Florida. The fire is probably slightly cooler than the daytime high...