The nature of Preservation

[Abevan]

There is one inconsistency I've noticed with regards to the exact nature of Preservation and I was wondering if anyone might be able to explain it.

Preservation is supposed to prevent it's holder from performing any destructive acts, such as stopping it's original holder from attacking Ruin. Vin was only able to because she hadn't been bonded to it for long enough for this to take effect.

Why is it then, that Preservation was on two separate occasions able to attack and wound people? Surely this is the destruction of life, and indeed on the Coppermind it says "Preservation seeks to provide stability. It seeks to preserve the world and its inhabitants." Elend would have been killed had he not become mistborn and burn pewter, which hardly constitutes preserving an inhabitant.

It could be that Preservation would be 'allowed' to destroy one person in an attempt to preserve the entire world long term, but then why did it not simply destroy Ruin as Vin eventually did? In the long term, the world is preserved by this one act of destruction.

So why is Preservation able to go against it's nature to attack humans?

[Voidus]

With Elend at least it later preserved his life, so that's probably got something to do with it, I would guess that Preservation wasn't actually expecting to do any harm as he knew that some Lerasium was around to save them.

[WeiryWriter]

I believe it was established that Ruin can build something up (which goes against his Intent) if it led to the destruction of something greater so I think Preservation could do the same kind of thing. He was able to "destroy" Elend (to a certain extent) because he believed it would force Vin to preserve Ruin's prison by saving him. Preserving the entire species is more important than a single person.

Edited January 4, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[Abevan]

But if this is the case, could the original Preservation not have destroyed Ruin in much the same way Vin did, as it would have led to the same preservation?

[WeiryWriter]

I think it is a matter of degree the benefit to the intent has to outweigh the stuff that counters it. Killing one person is one thing, killing not one but two shards is another. I don't know if the latter is "cheap" enough to cost less than the benefit to the world.

[Oudeis]

It's also possible that the tiny fragment of consciousness of Preservation was, in effect, insane. It's possible that it actually wasn't smart enough to understand the ramifications of its own actions, which is the only way it was able to break the rules. But yeah, if not that, then I think I agree with the theory that it can harm but not destroy; it never intended to kill Elend, since it assumed that Vin would save his life. Leras could probably have brought himself to HARM Ati, but never to take the final step and kill.

If memory serves, much the same thing happened to Alendi's companion, right? In the references in the logbook, didn't it mention that the attacked person was, in fact, still alive? Harmed, but not destroyed.

[Abevan]

I think it is a matter of degree the benefit to the intent has to outweigh the stuff that counters it. Killing one person is one thing, killing not one but two shards is another. I don't know if the latter is "cheap" enough to cost less than the benefit to the world.

The shards themselves survived, as quite clearly shown by the fact Sazed now possesses (for lack of a better word) them. The only thing to be destroyed was the two consciousnesses, his own and Ati's, both of which belonged to originally normal men.

The idea that it could wound but never kill holds some merit, as regardless of Vin's decision Elend would have lived and we don't really know enough about the earlier attack to establish exactly what happened (I believe he intended to attack Alendi?).

[WeiryWriter]

The shards themselves survived, as quite clearly shown by the fact Sazed now possesses (for lack of a better word) them. The only thing to be destroyed was the two consciousnesses, his own and Ati's, both of which belonged to originally normal men.

This is where it gets tricky, yes I meant the consciousnesses of the shards are killed but Brandon doesn't not differentiate a Shard and the consciousness holding it. Also the key word there is "originally," they aren't normal men anymore so different rules apply.

The idea that it could wound but never kill holds some merit, as regardless of Vin's decision Elend would have lived and we don't really know enough about the earlier attack to establish exactly what happened (I believe he intended to attack Alendi?).

If I remember correctly Alendi's friend did die but I don't have my books with me so I can't check that. Also I think the deaths from the mistsickness were a side effect of what Preservation did and not from any intervention from Ruin so I don't think the Preservation can harm but not kill idea is right.

[Oudeis]

Also I think the deaths from the mistsickness were a side effect of what Preservation did and not from any intervention from Ruin so I don't think the Preservation can harm but not kill idea is right.

But again, it was mentioned (if need be I'll try to find the specific quote) that the deaths resulting from the mists were an unfortunate side-effect; Preservation set up a system that was supposed to be useful and good. Unfortunately, a few people that deviated from the baseline norm suffered worse than then intention. I think the quote implies that Preservation already sacrificed his consciousness when he set up the mists; it was only an indirect way in which he harmed some people and even killed a few, not by his direct will. Basically I'm suggesting that the deities of this planet operate by imperfect and not-absolute rules that forbid certain things while allowing for some wiggle-room; after all, Leras very deliberately set up a plan that led indirectly to the death of Ati, something he quite specifically was not able directly to do.

[Chicken]

Preservation is god of status quo. Initiating a collosal change such as destroying both deities of the planet would be against its nature. Not that he could; Ruin had no idea that Vin could actually attack him, because attacking is too close to destroying. The best Preservation could do without going against its own Intent was imprisoning Ruin. The only reason Vin can even manage to attack is because of Ruin essence within herself, she explains that at the end.

I'll bet good money that if Preservation was taken up by someone from another world, they wouldn't be able to harm Ruin either. Of the Shards we've heard of so far, only Ruin and Odium (and maybe Dominion) would be allowed to attack without going against their Intent. Well, Dominion could presumably attack but only to beat up and force into submission, and maaaybe Devotion could attack in order to protect something but don't quote me on that, and Cultivation could maybe possibly sorta kinda allow destruction of one thing to make something better in its place but the required jumps in logic to justify destroying gets larger as you move away from Ruin (even Odium would prefer to make it hurt instead of simply destroying). But I digress.

I believe any human species that doesn't contain a bit of a destructive Shard within would find themselves unable to attack anything upon becoming Preservation, which is why Preservation had to make such a needlessly complicated masterplan to destroy his enemy.

E: Also a new single god that can Ruin and Preserve would be a much better defender of Scadrial in case of Alien Invaders (such as Odium). But I have no idea if Preservation considered that angle.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Chicken

[WeiryWriter]

The only reason Vin can even manage to attack is because of Ruin essence within herself, she explains that at the end.

Is that what it said? I thought the reason Vin could attack/kill him was because she was still new to the power and so she hadn't been molded to the Intent yet.

[Chicken]

Is that what it said?

Preservation could never destroy you! she thought, almost screaming it against the agony. He could only protect. That's why he needed to create humankind. All

along, Ruin, this was part of his plan!

He didn't give up part of himself, making himself weaker, simply so that he could create intelligent life! He knew he needed something of both Preservation and of Ruin. Something that could both protect and destroy. Something that could destroy to protect.

He gave up his power at the Well, and into the mists, giving it to us so that we could take it. He always intended this to happen. You think this was your plan? It was his. His all along.

I'm proud to proclaim that that's what she said.

[Voidus]

Vin just meant that it couldn't be something devoted purely to Preservation, all humans in the cosmere that we've seen so far could harm things any of them would still be able to if they picked up Preservation, at least for a little while.

[happyman]

Vin just meant that it couldn't be something devoted purely to Preservation, all humans in the cosmere that we've seen so far could harm things any of them would still be able to if they picked up Preservation, at least for a little while.

That's one interpretation, but not necessarily the only one. I'm undecided on this issue.

I would note, though, that when TLR took up the small amount of power in the Well of Ascension, he almost instantly began preserving rather than creating. The effect was subtle, but real. How Vin got around this is a good question, and I wouldn't dismiss Chicken's idea quite so readily.

[Oudeis]

when TLR took up the small amount of power in the Well of Ascension, he almost instantly began preserving rather than creating. The effect was subtle, but real. How Vin got around this is a good question, and I wouldn't dismiss Chicken's idea quite so readily.

This is a valid question, and I think it's something Sanderson answered for us over the long course of the book. Vin's entire "Hero's Journey" has been leading up to this moment.

This relies on the idea that the "Shard's Intent" is less a metaphysical Law, and more a matter of a psychological effect. Like claustrophobia; there's no physical reason a small space should cause the physiological symptoms that it does to a claustrophobe, and despite what Hollywood would have us believe it's not simply a matter of being mentally strong enough to "get over it".

Vin's early life made her tough. Her training from Kelsier gave her the psychological ability to kill. The killing she did, culminating in her attack on Cett's entourage, took her to the dark depths the human soul is capable of. From there on, she learns to accept that. She realizes that her ability to kill is not an evil thing, it is simply a powerful tool to be used properly.

I think it's this final revelation at the end that lets her get around Preservation's Intent and sacrifice herself to kill Ruin. Not mere determination, but self-awareness. Rashek found himself wanting to preserve and so he did. Vin felt the same urge, accepted it, recognized its source, took it under advisement and let her rational mind make a different choice anyway. Rashek felt the powerful emotion that "destruction is wrong" and so he didn't; Vin felt the same powerful emotion, but she'd faced it before in her life and come to terms with it.

Though it seems to me that even that likely would not have been enough had Vin not had that extra emotional impetus of seeing Elend die.

[Voidus]

I would note, though, that when TLR took up the small amount of power in the Well of Ascension, he almost instantly began preserving rather than creating.

I'd say that was more because that's what they thought the Well was for, he also gained knowledge of Hemalurgy and used it all while he had the power, if he managed to use Ruins magic then I seriously doubt he was significantly influenced by the Shards intent, moreover why would it be different for someone on another planet? In fact if anything Vin should be one of the people in the cosmere most effected by Preservations intent, they had a little bit of Ruin in them but were overwhelmingly of Preservation, Allomancers in particular and Vin in particular even amongst Allomancers. If the Investitude in a human had the same restrictive effects on their actions as the Intent of a Shard then Vin who has had way more contact with Preservations power than Ruin should be if anything far less likely to be able to ruin things, not only is the power of Ruin secondary to another Shard in her but that other Shard is the very opposite of Ruin.

[happyman]

I'd say that was more because that's what they thought the Well was for, he also gained knowledge of Hemalurgy and used it all while he had the power, if he managed to use Ruins magic then I seriously doubt he was significantly influenced by the Shards intent, moreover why would it be different for someone on another planet? In fact if anything Vin should be one of the people in the cosmere most effected by Preservations intent, they had a little bit of Ruin in them but were overwhelmingly of Preservation, Allomancers in particular and Vin in particular even amongst Allomancers. If the Investitude in a human had the same restrictive effects on their actions as the Intent of a Shard then Vin who has had way more contact with Preservations power than Ruin should be if anything far less likely to be able to ruin things, not only is the power of Ruin secondary to another Shard in her but that other Shard is the very opposite of Ruin.

I doubt this, Voidus, primarily because our source of information about the influence Preservation had on Rashek was Sazed's annotations. If there is one thing the successive shardholders had access to, it was memories of the previous uses of the power. Sazed says outright that tLR's actions were strongly modulated by Preservation's intent; the tLR's actions were strongly modulated by Preservations intent. Overwhelming that with speculation isn't likely to lead down useful paths.

I like Darnam's analysis more. Lacking strong motivation in any other direction, TLR followed Preservation's intent. With motivation (motivation imparted at least partly by the part of Ruin still in her cognitive aspect), Vin was able to buck it.

Edited: As for Hemalurgy, Ruin was also whispering to him when he ascended. There was some aspect of Ruin in his cognitive aspect even with the power, but Ruin directed it as he liked. I see no reason to remove Sazed's basic statement (and he should know) given this fact.

Edited January 7, 2013 by happyman

[Voidus]

I doubt this, Voidus, primarily because our source of information about the influence Preservation had on Rashek was Sazed's annotations.

I assume you mean this one?

It also shows his mind-set during his time with Preservation's power. Under its influence he was obviously in a protective mode. Instead of leveling the ashmounts

and trying to push the planet back into place, he was reactive, working furiously to fix problems that he himself had caused.

For a start this doesn't show that humans from other planets would be more influenced than Scadralians because Rashek of course was from Scadrial, all this shows is that the power of the Well (Which keep in mind is not the same thing as actually holding the Shard) caused it's users to be in a more Preserving mindset for all we know this was built in by Preservation to keep the power of the Well from being used for harm, or perhaps because it was still Leras who actually held Preservation at this point he couldn't allow his own power to be used to Ruin, there are a multitude of different solutions to this, it's been stated by Brandon that an Intent takes time to influence a new Shardholder and I don't see reason to dismiss that based purely on speculation from a completely different situation.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Voidus

[Oudeis]

I assume you mean this one?

Voidus:

I'm not sure who, or which argument, you're replying to with this statement.

[Voidus]

Ah sorry, meant to quote but I forgot, that was to happyman.

[Nepene]

Preservation is god of status quo. Initiating a collosal change such as destroying both deities of the planet would be against its nature. Not that he could; Ruin had no idea that Vin could actually attack him, because attacking is too close to destroying. The best Preservation could do without going against its own Intent was imprisoning Ruin. The only reason Vin can even manage to attack is because of Ruin essence within herself, she explains that at the end.

I'll bet good money that if Preservation was taken up by someone from another world, they wouldn't be able to harm Ruin either. Of the Shards we've heard of so far, only Ruin and Odium (and maybe Dominion) would be allowed to attack without going against their Intent. Well, Dominion could presumably attack but only to beat up and force into submission, and maaaybe Devotion could attack in order to protect something but don't quote me on that, and Cultivation could maybe possibly sorta kinda allow destruction of one thing to make something better in its place but the required jumps in logic to justify destroying gets larger as you move away from Ruin (even Odium would prefer to make it hurt instead of simply destroying). But I digress.

I believe any human species that doesn't contain a bit of a destructive Shard within would find themselves unable to attack anything upon becoming Preservation, which is why Preservation had to make such a needlessly complicated masterplan to destroy his enemy.

E: Also a new single god that can Ruin and Preserve would be a much better defender of Scadrial in case of Alien Invaders (such as Odium). But I have no idea if Preservation considered that angle.

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation/361/Mistborn-3-Chapter-Eighty-One-Part-4

Leras could have killed Ati once he took his power. Brandon makes it quite clear that the issue is that over time the shard corrupts you. Vin had an advantage due to her having Ruin in her, but the main thing is that over time you merge with your power.

He had been too corrupted by his power, and could not destroy Ruin. If Vin had held the power for millennia as Preservation had before her, then she too would have lost the ability to destroy Ruin.

It needed to be someone fresh to the power, still separate enough from it to be able to kill Ruin.

As he said, Leras was too corrupted implying it was a gradual process, perhaps taking millennia.

Likewise with humans from other planets, though what shard was in them would likely determine how fast they were corrupted.