Dalinar's power

[Cromptj]

I'm new to this forum but I have read a lot of the theories, especially on Stormblessed and while there is much speculation about Dalinar's radiant ability, there are not many theories offered apart from him being a surgebinder. Now I believe that there is very little evidence to suggest this. I mean he does protect/lead but there is no sign of honour spren. Also, for a lot of the book he encourages Adolin to take the lead in case something happens.

Now I believe that there are a few plausible options.

1. He is a surge binder but we have not been given any information from his view points (unlikely)

2. We are just reading to much into his skill and the viewpoints suggesting anything out of the ordinary (possible)

3. He has gained his power from a different means than which we have seen (probable)

Brandon has already confirmed in an interview(I think goodreads but can't find quote) that Szeth's power is not gained the same way that Kaladin's is. Now whether it is from Odium or Cultivation is irrelevant for the purposes of this post (I would guess Odium) but I think that there is evidence that suggests that Dalinar got his power from Cultivation/the Nightwatcher.

Firstly, we know for a fact that he visited her at some point before the main story. We also know that his curse/boon(interchangeable at this point) was that he cannot remember anything about his wife. Now, as Cultivation's motive is to cultivate, it makes sense to eradicate the memory of his wife so he can function and grow but I think that Cultivation also gave him the powers of a Surgebinder. The Nightwatcher was known to give gifts and curses but each curse and gift has helped the person in question to adapt for the better. It follows that giving Dalinar Surgebinding would help him. Especially now that he has given up both his shards( at least one of which is seen as evil). Now this whole theory is just my thoughts and I gave very few quotes to back it up( none in this post because I misplaced my copy of WoK).

Edited November 1, 2011 by Cromptj

[Zas678]

Welcome! We're glad you're here. I agree with you that Dalinar is a Surgebinder. However, I am under the impression that it is under Honor, and that the boon he asked of the Nightwatcher (who may or may not be Cultivation- she may be a Herald, some funky spren, or something else entirely) is unrelated.

First, points that Dalinar is a Surgebinder-

The "glittering" of Shardplate when he was fighting the greatshell. It seemed to work better, stronger, while Dalinar was protecting Elhokar.

The legendary "Blackthorne", how he moves naturally in Shardplate (like Kaladin moves naturally with a spear)

Second, points that Dalinar's powers came from Honor-

Kaladin's spren took a while to show up. He was accessing some of the Stormlight before he realized Syl was there (if you look back to where he's fighting the Shardbearer, and the fighting before that, some of the bystanders mention an "almost glowing"). It's not odd to think that Dalinar is still unaware of his spren.

Dalinar is getting visions from Honor. He tells Dalinar to help the KR rise again, to unite mankind. It seems to be pretty hard to do that if you aren't a KR yourself.

The other problem I have with your theory is that it seems like you have to ask for a specific Boon of the Nightwatcher, and then she gives you a Punishment. You ask something of her, and she asks something of you. I suppose that someone could ask to have the powers of a KR. However, I don't think Dalinar would do so. He originally doesn't have such a high opinion of the KR, but maybe with the death of his brother, he decided to go off the deep end.

[CrazyRioter]

the nightwatcher doesn't always give you what you asked for, she gives you what she wants to give you, but Dalinar says he knows what his boon was. So yeah, I don't think the Nightwatcher gave his surgebinding powers either.

And if he isn't already bonded to spren, he will be shortly I'd imagine, possibly giving up his shards will allow him to attract a spren, since we know Syl doesn't like Shardblades, Dalinar's having the shards may have been preventing him from attracting a spren.

He may attract a different kind of spren then Kaladin, he doesn't seem as fixated on protecting as Kaladin is, what he's fixated on at the end of the book is building a proper alliance between the highprinces. I think Resolute/Builder the characteristics for the 8th order fit him.

[Cromptj]

I meant to say that his curse could have been the powers of a KR because it would make sense for the Nightwatcher to want him to fight against Odium. Also, as mentioned in one of the interludes( I forget which one). The people who visited the Nightwatcher either overcame their curse or it did not boher them that much.

The reason I don't think that Dalinar is a KR is because he was acting honourably or trying to soon after Gavilar's death but he did not get a spren.

It is also mentioned that the Blackthorn was a legendary warrior long before he even started acting honourably.Dalinar mentions killing people because they insulted him before Gavilar's death. I would also argue that be does not at the moment belong in the 8th order as be was resolute/builder for like >10% of the book.

[happyman]

The reason I don't think that Dalinar is a KR is because he was acting honourably or trying to soon after Gavilar's death but he did not get a spren.

This is the main problem with your argument. We don't know that he hasn't attracted a Spren, or that he might soon. Kaladin knew nothing about Syl in the first chapter of WoK, but he was clearly already drawing on Stormlight to enhance his strength. Extra speed, extra ability, that little edge, clearly already existed, and was noticed by outsiders first.

If Dalinar is going down the same path, as many people (including me) have guessed (although almost certainly with a different type of Spren), then not having an obvious Spren means---nothing.

In short: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when the only other case of interest also had the same absence at the same early stage.

[Kelek]

IMO, Dalinar is showing us the beginning process of finding his power where Kaladin was showing us how the process changes you and part of the why. (displaying honorable traits) I hope this is comprehensible, since Kaladin was also discovering, but further along than Dalinar.

[dj26792]

IMO, Dalinar is showing us the beginning process of finding his power where Kaladin was showing us how the process changes you and part of the why. (displaying honorable traits) I hope this is comprehensible, since Kaladin was also discovering, but further along than Dalinar.

Because I'm not sure what you're saying there, this might actually be exactly the same thing said again:

When we first see Kaladin using stormlight he has already attracted a Spren quite some time ago, and has been using it subconsciously for months or even years (I honestly can't remember how long it was since he was in the army). His powers are well developed and he has finally noticed (or been told) that he actually has them and is beginning to use them consciously. He has displayed honourable traits, and changed and is now noticing the change and learning to live with it. What I'm guessing, and I think Kelek is also trying to get at it, is that maybe Dalinar, is being honourable, and is attracting a spren, and will in books 2 and onwards go through the process of change we find Kaladin at the end of.

I could probably say that in more words, but I already feel like I used too many to say not very much

[Kelek]

I think you said it better than me, DJ.

[Vine]

A quick thought on why Dalinar might not be exhibiting a spren yet: Shardplate/blade.

There's some evidence that the shardplates and blades have been 'corrupted' by Odium (thus the thrill), and therefore might inhibit the formation of fully realized Honor based powers. Plus we saw how Syll was happy when he relinquished his armor and blade. It's not difinitive, but it holds together under a first order analysis anyway.

[Aiken Frost]

Remember also that the "truthspren" that was "stalking" Shallan wasn't even visible. She could only capture their image through her ability of taking memories of scenes. Dalinar's spren could be similar.

Also, I believe that Kaladin got his powers at the exact moment he decided to join the army so he could protect Tien. Remember the Second Ideal of his order of Knights Radiant? "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." That may be the moment he became "eligible" to become a Windrunner. If I am right, Syl only appeared years latter. Dalinar could have passed through the same process and his spren did not appeared yet.

[CrazyRioter]

actually, Syl says at one point that she was attracted to him during the time he was in the army, because he was protecting young soldiers in general, so presumably after Tien died.

[discipleofhoid]

In Way of Kings Dalinar was not very committed to his path of action. He questioned himself alot. If the suspicions that he will fall into the resolute/builder order are correct he would not have qualified until the very end of WofK. I suspect this is why we have not seen his spren yet.

[hoser]

Interesting thoughts.

Spoiler warning.

I think Dalinar is already connected to an honorspren. I cite Chapter 26 "Stillness" p467-468 of the paperback. He is caught between the "Thrill" and a strange revulsion. I don't know whether the revulsion is from his spren or not, but then he experiences thoughts that seem alien to him:

"Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered."

"Life before death. What was that voice?"

These thoughts and maybe the reaction seem like they could be coming from an honorspren. I don't know whether the spren hasn't revealed itself to him or he just doesn't recognize it.

[happyman]

Interesting thoughts.

Spoiler warning.

I think Dalinar is already connected to an honorspren. I cite Chapter 26 "Stillness" p467-468 of the paperback. He is caught between the "Thrill" and a strange revulsion. I don't know whether the revulsion is from his spren or not, but then he experiences thoughts that seem alien to him:

"Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered."

"Life before death. What was that voice?"

These thoughts and maybe the reaction seem like they could be coming from an honorspren. I don't know whether the spren hasn't revealed itself to him or he just doesn't recognize it.

Nice catch. I doubt it's an Honorspren, but it might well be a Spren. It's entirely possible that the Spren hasn't revealed itself to him because it can't---the bond is still too weak for it to manifest as strongly as Syl does. After all, it took a while for Syl to seem to be anything besides a windspren, but we know Kaladin was already forming a bond with her.

[Mistborn Surgebinder]

You know, I have been looking for a place to discuss these types of things since nobody I know seems to want to read anything I do. I recall BS saying that there are a bunch of different magic systems on Roshar. Thus far, we have not seen many. Is it possible Dalinar is slowly discovering another type of magic, similar to surgebinding but not necessarily the same thing? From an in-story standpoint, Dalinar seems revolted by killing the Parhsendi, which could be reltated to his magic, while Kaladin seems perfectly fine with what he is doing at the end. From an out-of-story standpoint, it makes more sense for your main characters to discover different things (like types of magic) than for your older, more seasoned character to have to go through the same process as your young, friggin' awesome character just did. Its kind of boring and redundant.

I could be wrong, and I'm not trying to be contrary, just throwing my thoughts in the ring.

[Catalyst21]

You know, I have been looking for a place to discuss these types of things since nobody I know seems to want to read anything I do. I recall BS saying that there are a bunch of different magic systems on Roshar. Thus far, we have not seen many. Is it possible Dalinar is slowly discovering another type of magic, similar to surgebinding but not necessarily the same thing? From an in-story standpoint, Dalinar seems revolted by killing the Parhsendi, which could be reltated to his magic, while Kaladin seems perfectly fine with what he is doing at the end. From an out-of-story standpoint, it makes more sense for your main characters to discover different things (like types of magic) than for your older, more seasoned character to have to go through the same process as your young, friggin' awesome character just did. Its kind of boring and redundant.

I could be wrong, and I'm not trying to be contrary, just throwing my thoughts in the ring.

Around 30 magic systems.

There were 10 orders of Knights Radient.

Kaladin is on the path to become a wind runner (the symbol for windrunners is on the cover book1 hardback, note: Szeth has almost identical powers to windrunners, but is not a windrunner because he got his powers a different (unknown) way)

Shallan is becoming one of the 2 orders of radients who can Soulcast (Name unknown, book 2 is her book)

Jasnath is believed to have the powers of the other order of knights that can soulcast (name unknown)

Dalinar is on the path to becoming a 4th order of Radient (little is known at this point, one of the books is planned to be about him).

Andolin is believed to be on the path to become a Radient (either the same as Shallan or Jasnath, or one of the 2 orders that compliment their Order) (one of the books is planned to be about him)

If i remeber to I will edit in links to the above information later.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Catalyst21

[Kelek]

I posted this in the "Dalinar visits the spirit realm" thread. It could throw another proverbial wrench in the discussion. Since we are lacking a lot of critical information, this is also just a theory with my take on things.

I found an essence thai fits the spirit theory and Dalinar in some aspects. 3. Chach - Gemstone: Ruby - Essence: Spark - Body Focus: The Soul - Suolcasting Properties: Fire - Primary/Secondary Divine Attributes: Brave/Obedient.

The Body focus being the soul solidifies the theory, also, the "Divine Attributes" Bravery and Obedience. Bravery fits Dalinar - saving Elhokar from the chasmfiend and the Tower battle. Obedience is a little tougher since he is at the top of the food chain so to speak, but there is some support there. He listens to Elhokar in the search for assasins, the chasmfiend hunt was also Elhokar's idea if I remember correctly, and he obeys/follows the ideas from "The Way of Kings" and his visions. It is somewhat of a stretch on the obedience part, but I like the idea.

Edit: spelling

Edited November 28, 2011 by Kelek

[dj26792]

I like the idea hoser threw up about him already having the spren, mistborns objection of the revulsion is simply explained, Kalladin comments at the time that he is fighting to protect he doesnt enjoy the fighting but it is neccesary in order to protect, one of the ideals of his order. Dalinar was revolted because he was just fighting, he wasnt acting in accord with his ideals it wasn't honourable, and his spren which was still developing and he hasn't yet realised he has it or that he is a knight radiant but still being affected by the dishonourable nature of the fighting.

[name_here]

I'll repeat that I think we haven't seen any of Dalinar's actual powers and everything we've seen is just him managing to activate Radiant-only features of his Shardplate.

[happyman]

I'll repeat that I think we haven't seen any of Dalinar's actual powers and everything we've seen is just him managing to activate Radiant-only features of his Shardplate.

Controlling Shardplate with extra skill sure sounds like a Radiant power to me.

[name_here]

To clarify, what I think is that all orders of the Knights Radiant can "attune" their Shardplate and access extra features, and possibly convince it to allow their Surgebinding through while still blocking hostile Surgebinding (assuming the reason Szeth has trouble using his powers from within Shardplate is because it's designed to protect against them and not because his power source is opposed to Shardplate) as well as producing the characteristic Radiant glow and glyphs. This would mean that so far Dalinar has not demonstrated any powers specific to only some orders, and possibly not any depending on whether the special Shardplate abilities are powered by the user or are simply switched off and could theoretically work for a non-radiant with some alterations to the Plate.

I'm also figuring that the visions are being projected to him instead of him actually tracking them down somehow. I think this because at least two and possibly three people have accessed the visions (Gavilar, one of the death-babbling sources, Dalinar) but never at the same time. Also, it doesn't appear to drain his spheres, but that might not mean anything.

[dj26792]

I dont think we've heard if Dalinar is draining his spheres, we certainly havent been told he isnt. It seems to me that despite his obvious wealth Dalinar would be less likely than Kaladin to be carrying a pocketful of spheres and notice that he was draining them, he has servants to handle the money for him, his most common contact with spheres would be lights in corridors and if he was draining them he wouldnt notice, his servants would, but we wouldnt hear about it.

[Thyrllann]

That could also explain the fact that some of Elhokar's gemstones (in his Shardplate) were cracked - he drained them too quickly (like Jasnah's smokestones in her *fake* Soulcaster were) - they were the only Stormlight-infused gems anywhere near him.

[dj26792]

but what did he do with the stormlight? if he had absorbed all that stormlight surely he would have noticed.

Also I would have thought that shardplate would have safeguards against that happening, but that could just be me...

[treblkickd]

I dont think we've heard if Dalinar is draining his spheres, we certainly havent been told he isnt. It seems to me that despite his obvious wealth Dalinar would be less likely than Kaladin to be carrying a pocketful of spheres and notice that he was draining them, he has servants to handle the money for him, his most common contact with spheres would be lights in corridors and if he was draining them he wouldnt notice, his servants would, but we wouldnt hear about it.

It's been a full year since I last read through WoK, but I thought I remembered a line about Dalinar's shardplate gems being low after he saves Elhokar from the chasmfiend while pulling off the extra feats of strength and glowing and whatnot. Am I just thinking of the line about Elhokar's gem's being low and mis-attributing it to Dalinar?