Dalinar's power

[name_here]

Shardplate loses Stormlight when damaged, and it did get pretty battered, so not much can be concluded from that.

[discipleofhoid]

Also I would have thought that shardplate would have safeguards against that happening, but that could just be me...

I suspect that originally the shard-plate was not powered by gems in the same way it is now. There are several differences between shard-plate as use by the radiants and as it is used in Dalinar's times.

[treblkickd]

Shardplate loses Stormlight when damaged, and it did get pretty battered, so not much can be concluded from that.

Right, I had just thought that there was some other thought in there, post-battle, where Dalinar thinks to himself that the gems seemed to have lost more light than he would normally expect given the damage level (but again, I might just be misremembering this).

[Aoibheann]

to add a bit the the quote that Hoser posted above:

Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered.

(snip) A few windspren danced past in the air, nearly invisible. (snip)

Life before death.

What was that voice? p. 381

Those windspren/honorspren could be attracted to Dalinar and/or his men. We certainly have the idea that Dalinar and his men are the most honorable around.

We also don't know what other kinds of spren may be out there, looking like windspren.

[Arcanist Lupus]

to add a bit the the quote that Hoser posted above:

Those windspren/honorspren could be attracted to Dalinar and/or his men. We certainly have the idea that Dalinar and his men are the most honorable around.

We also don't know what other kinds of spren may be out there, looking like windspren.

On the other hand, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I'm inclined to believe that these are actually windspren, if only because Syl is invisible to anyone except Kaladin (and Rock) unless she chooses to be.

[Sunblesser]

On the other hand, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I'm inclined to believe that these are actually windspren, if only because Syl is invisible to anyone except Kaladin (and Rock) unless she chooses to be.

but that doesn't mean there isn't a spren around there that's just starting to notice dalinar now, at his most desperate, when his honour becomes strongest and his mind untroubled. two things we know nahel-bond spren are attracted to if syl is anything to go by. she first notices kaladin because of his honourable choices, and once she becomes sentient, she needs kaladin.

if we do suppose that the shardblades and plate are corrupted somehow by odium, or at least are not working properly, or that the thrill is of odium, then dalinar might only be overcoming that negative influence there at the end of his life. whatever order he ends up being (resolute/builder, leading/protecting, w.e), his whole mindset seems very open to the intent of the shard at this moment, so much so that he hears the damnation words in his mind. "Life before death."

he's also been acting honourably for quite some time now, and i wouldn't be surprised if soon he's noticing a particular spren following him around and playing tricks. maybe he could have it talking by the end of book two. i could also see some funny situations between him and kaladin occurring. in any case, one of these particular spren that he sees might be that future spren, or they might not, but if there isn't a spren hanging around with dalinar's name on it, then knock me down and call me susan.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Sunblesser

[happyman]

Shardplate loses Stormlight when damaged, and it did get pretty battered, so not much can be concluded from that.

Really, all this means is that Dalinar could have been drawing Stormlight from his gems, and we would have no evidence either way. We have to look elsewhere to discover if he is doing anything unusual.

[treblkickd]

Really, all this means is that Dalinar could have been drawing Stormlight from his gems, and we would have no evidence either way. We have to look elsewhere to discover if he is doing anything unusual.

This particular set of events is suspicious because it is, at the very least, strongly implied that Dalinar *is* doing something unusual when he saves Elhokar. He shows off speed and strength that is commented as being unusual even for someone wearing shardplate, and I think that he gives off a little bit of a glow as well (?).

[happyman]

This particular set of events is suspicious because it is, at the very least, strongly implied that Dalinar *is* doing something unusual when he saves Elhokar. He shows off speed and strength that is commented as being unusual even for someone wearing shardplate, and I think that he gives off a little bit of a glow as well (?).

Yeah, that's why many people support the notion of him being some order of Knights Radiant. Of course, as soon as some people become too confident in that fact, others feel they must oppose them out of some sense of justice/caution/perverse joy. Hence this discussion. It seems to me that the rational arguments have been mostly tapped out by now, and for the rest, well, RAFO.

[Aoibheann]

Here's the quote that everyone is looking for:

Dalinar charged toward the king, moving with a speed and grace no man - not even one wearing Shardplate - should be able to manage. He leaped over a rock shelf, then ducked and skidded beneath a claw swinging for him. Other men thought they understood Shardblades and Shardplate, but Dalinar Kholin... at times, be proved them all children.

Dalinar straightened and leaped - still moving forward cresting by inches a second claw that smashed apart the rocky shelf behind him.

It was all just a moment. A breath. The third claw was falling toward the king, and Dalinar roared, leaping forward. He dropped his blade - it hit the ground and puffed away - as he skidded beneath the falling claw. He raised his hands and - And he caught it. He bent beneath the blow, going down on one knee, and the air rang with a resounding clang of carapace against armor.

But he caught it.

Stormfather! Adolin thought, watching his father stand over the king, bowed beneath the enormous weight of a monster many times his size. Shocked archers hesitated. Sadeas lowered his grandbow. Adolin's breath caught in his chest.

Dalinar held back the claw and matched its strength, a figure in dark, silvery metal that almost seemed to glow. The beast trumpeted above, and Dalinar bellowed back a powerful, defiant yell.

All emphasis is Brandon's.

It's interesting to me that the comment about the glow is after the Shardblade puffs away.

[dj26792]

I suspect that originally the shard-plate was not powered by gems in the same way it is now. There are several differences between shard-plate as use by the radiants and as it is used in Dalinar's times.

That can't be true, in Dalinar's vision of the recreance the soldiers are able to use the shards straight away, at the very least the blades, and if they hadn't been able to use the plate they wouldn't have had the understanding to modify it, because they still dont.

On what Aoibheann said, did he not glow till after he dropped the blade, or did it not fit to in the prose to write that he was glowing before then, or even did Adolin not notice the glow until he was stationary, he was after all moving even faster than people who are crazy fast due to plate can move (Super crazy fast? is that the right term here?).

[ulyssessword]

Dalinar also "seemed to glow" after killing a group of archers that was going to kill Bridge 4. Still need to find that quote, but he still had his Blade out.

EDIT: Quote:

[Dalinar] turned, armour seeming to glow as he raised his Blade in a salute of respect toward the bridgemen.

Edited December 10, 2011 by ulyssessword

[happyman]

I would theorize, from that quote, that Dalinar isn't fully drawing on whatever powers he has access to, yet. "Almost" seeming to glow suggests that he isn't quite there, yet, but people are beginning to sense it.

Especially interesting is that Adolin attributes his father's ability to just being his father. It provides a decent cover for what is happening, if anything is.

[treblkickd]

Dalinar also "seemed to glow" after killing a group of archers that was going to kill Bridge 4. Still need to find that quote, but he still had his Blade out.

EDIT: Quote:

Oh snap, that's a nice catch!

If anyone has a book handy, isn't the "seeming to glow" the same kind of language (or at least very, very similar) to what is used to describe Kaladin during his first stink with the army in the first few chapters of the book (before he is a slave)?

[treblkickd]

To add one more observation to this line of thought: from chapter 15, pg 222 in the US hardcover, where Adolin is thinking about Dalinar's crazy feats while saving Elhokar from the chasmfiend, it is explicitly said about Dalinar at that moment, "This wasn't the first time Adolin had seen such extraordinary actions from his father, but they had seemed particularly dramatic. Standing beneath the massive chasmfiend, holding back from killing his nephew, Plate glowing. That image was fixed in Adolin's memory." (emphasis mine)

So, we have Dalinar performing feats that are extraordinary even beyond the kind of things that built his reputation, and his plate is clearly described as glowing - he seems to be showing off some Radiant-like ability. It'd be jumping the gun to guess now, but I'm really curious to find our what order/powers Dalinar ends up having.

[Vortaan]

Honestly I see Dalinar as becoming a figure like Nohadel (or whatever the name of the guy who wrote the in-universe Way of Kinds is). The impression I got from the vision with him is that Nohadel was NOT a Surgebinder, but was a leader of the people. I don't even think he was a Knight Radiant. As for Dalinar's abilities with Shardplate... maybe acting more in keeping with Honor's intent gives one better ability to use it?

[Aeshdan]

Honestly I see Dalinar as becoming a figure like Nohadel (or whatever the name of the guy who wrote the in-universe Way of Kinds is). The impression I got from the vision with him is that Nohadel was NOT a Surgebinder, but was a leader of the people. I don't even think he was a Knight Radiant. As for Dalinar's abilities with Shardplate... maybe acting more in keeping with Honor's intent gives one better ability to use it?

Nohadon.

[treblkickd]

Honestly I see Dalinar as becoming a figure like Nohadel (or whatever the name of the guy who wrote the in-universe Way of Kinds is). The impression I got from the vision with him is that Nohadel was NOT a Surgebinder, but was a leader of the people. I don't even think he was a Knight Radiant. As for Dalinar's abilities with Shardplate... maybe acting more in keeping with Honor's intent gives one better ability to use it?

I don't quite follow this line of thought. Dalinar having the powers of one of the KR orders doesn't preclude him from taking a leadership/guiding role, and isn't gaining abilities from acting in accord with Honor's intent pretty much the definition of surgebinding/KR abilities? It's also not Brandon's MO to have random add-on powers and abilities beyond his well-ordered magic systems.

[Aeshdan]

I think the idea is that the powers of Shardplate are distinct from the powers of Surgebinding.

So Dalinar's honor is attuning him to the Plate, but he has no Surgebinding powers.

[treblkickd]

I think the idea is that the powers of Shardplate are distinct from the powers of Surgebinding.

So Dalinar's honor is attuning him to the Plate, but he has no Surgebinding powers.

I'm just saying that this idea doesn't make sense within the framework of Brandon's magic systems.

[Aeshdan]

Why not?

It seems to me to be the same principle as fabrials, or the various kinds of Lenses.

[Vortaan]

I'm just saying that this idea doesn't make sense within the framework of Brandon's magic systems.

It also doesn't make sense from a writing standpoint to make every main character a Surgebinder. Dalinar as the kind of guiding force, but just basically a normal man... there's a lot more conflict there. He's known as the Blackthorne for his skill in combat. Isn't it interesting that Brandon makes a large deal of how good a fighter he is, then strips him of the tools that made him such a good fighter?

On topic though, have we seen anyone else with Dalinar's level of honor using Shardplate? Adolin comes close, except he doesn't believe in Dalinar's principles until the end of the book. That said, Adolin is stated to be a natural duelist... much like his father, perhaps? Maybe it's the ideals, not the powers that power the Shardplate. This seems backed up a bit by how Kaladin accesses more of his Surgebinding... through commitment to another ideal.

EDIT: Also unfortunately, we have a lot of theories but not a ton of hard facts about Surgebinding. For example, Szeth can use it, but not like Kaladin does. And Nohadon (thank you, whomever corrected me), mentions a Surgebinder who apparently did something that aided the Desolation that followed. I gather it was some kind of uprising. So Surgebinding may not be as linked to Honor's intent, it may just be his power, much like Allomancy can be used to destroy, or (in theory) Hemalurgy to save.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Vortaan

[Lamguin]

Let me see if I can attempt to sum up this very interesting thread.

Dalinar currently has no Knight Radiant powers.

When acting in an honorable way, his plate glows, and he becomes stronger, faster, and better than shardplate should allow.

There's no conclusive evidence either way that he's drawing in and using stormlight.

He probably doesn't have a spren stalking him yet.

[treblkickd]

Why not?

It seems to me to be the same principle as fabrials, or the various kinds of Lenses.

Because we've seen quite a few fabrials in WoK and none of them are used by acting in accord with something as abstract as a shard's intent. They are all activated or used via simple mechanical means. Explaining Dalinar's glowing shardplate as some kind of new pseudo-fabrial mechanism is contrived in much the same way that it would be contrived to say that maybe Dalinar's plate is glowing because Hoid is making it so; there is no statement in the text that flatly contradicts either idea but at the same time neither idea fits into the SA magic as it has been presented.

Re: Vortaan's post - I agree that there's no good reason to assume that every important character in the SA will be a Knight Radiant, but Dalinar being one isn't the same as saying that all of the important characters are.

As far as a summary of what's going on with Dalinar, I would also add a few comments to Lamguin's post, and restate some of it slightly differently. Specifically:

1) Dalinar's shardplate glows when he is fighting to save Elhokar. Glowing shardplate only otherwise occurs when full Knights Radiant are using shardplate.

2) Dalinar while moving to save Elhokar exhibits "speed and grace no man - not even one wearing shardplate - should be able to manage." [this quote from Adolin's PoV in chapter 13, pg 209 in the US hardcover]. Dalinar is clearly doing something extraordinary here, and if we trust that Adolin is an expert re: shardplate, it isn't the shardplate that's enabling Dalinar to do it.

3) There is no strong evidence for or against use of stormlight by Dalinar.

4) Dalinar has not obviously interacted with a spren. That said, it is worth looking at what goes on inside Dalinar's head in chapter 26 (pg 381 in the US hardcover) when he begins to lose the Thrill while fighting the parshendi. He hears a voice that he cannot explain that whispers regarding shardplate and blades, "Once these weapons meant protecting", and then "Life before death." It's not clear what the voice is, but a spren has to be on the list of possibilities.

Re: point #3 above, it's worth noting that Dalinar's plate is damaged in the same fight where it glows and Dalinar performs physical feats that seem beyond what is normal for shardplate (in Adolin's opinion). It is therefore entirely possible that some part of what Darlinar does uses up a small amount of stormlight, but the leaking of stormlight due to the damage washes out his or anyone else's ability to perceive that a small amount of stormlight was drawm from the gems in the shardplate.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

3) There is no strong evidence for or against use of stormlight by Dalinar.

Re: point #3 above, it's worth noting that Dalinar's plate is damaged in the same fight where it glows and Dalinar performs physical feats that seem beyond what is normal for shardplate (in Adolin's opinion). It is therefore entirely possible that some part of what Darlinar does uses up a small amount of stormlight, but the leaking of stormlight due to the damage washes out his or anyone else's ability to perceive that a small amount of stormlight was drawm from the gems in the shardplate.

It's also possible that he somehow used the stormlight from Elokhars plate, cracking the gems. I for one, think that Dalinar will definitely be a surgebinder. I dont see any other way for him to be so attuned to honor that he recieved the visions.