Confused

Argent, why not focus on each Order's Divine Attributes? I think the answer Brandon gave you at the signing was intended to focus you on these Attributes: Q: Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful geolocation thing, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on? A: There is something supernatural about those.... Q: So it's definitely tied to the Orders? A: It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with the Order, things that do not add up from simply the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires is abnormal for the Windrunners. Q: And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'? A: Yeah... some Orders don't have them. Q: But some have more? A: Yeah. By mentioning the number of Windrunner squires, compared to those of other orders, Brandon was emphasizing Windrunner "leadership/protection" Attributes, not their fighting ability. Kaladin's leadership goes beyond mere talent - he's the only darkeyes captain ever (and it's not just a reward for his exemplary service). In Jasnah's case, it is her extraordinary scholarship ability ("wisdom"), together with her secondary attribute of "carefulness" - never jumping to conclusions, which she often cautions Shallan against. Navani and Shallan say Jasnah's "never wrong." Again, not "mere" brilliance. Shallan's Lightweavers were artists (in the broadest sense) - people who have exceptional pattern recognition skills (hence, the bond with Cryptics), who can find order in chaos. Prodigious memory often accompanies such people (like the musician playing by ear a piece he has just heard or a writer remembering line after line of something she has read once or a chessplayer who can play thirty simultaneous games while blind-folded). Memory is simply a part of the artist's primary attribute of "creativity." Shallan also has startling artistic skill - even Jasnah and Mraize are surprised, almost shocked, at how truly talented Shallan is. There's also the creativity she applies to the various situations she finds herself in, like hiding inside a "boulder" or a fake wall while avoiding the Ghostbloods. And when Shallan wants to - natural phenomena, for example - Shallan exhibits astonishing fidelity to her subjects - how she can render them exactly as they appear - also a form of "honesty." One might argue that Shallan's skill brings out the "truth" of her subjects, as she did with the deserters, again a form of honesty. I agree with Chlehrma's analysis of Ym and Lift and the "loving/healing" Attributes. And Dalinar's "pious/giving" Attributes are almost self-explanatory. The point is, none of these derive from their "surgebinding" powers; instead, they are the "something else" that Brandon alludes to. They are the "something else" that the various in-book Words of Radiance epigraphs cite: the Skybreaker's "almost divine skill" for making judgments of guilt and innocence "for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity"; and Melishi's process "related to the very nature of the Herald and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address." That's my take, anyway...

I completely agree with SacredHonor's review of the Malazan books: Erickson drops you headfirst into a sprawling, phantasmagorical world peopled with a never-ending parade of unusual and imaginative characters. Erickson and his colleague originally created a card game like M:TG, but when that didn't sell, they turned their concept into the Malazan novels. The series reflects its origins. Erickson writes prose very well. Unfortunately, he doesn't structure his novels as well, the series' deficiency. But well worth the read anyway. Someone also recommended Scott Bakker's Second Apocalypse novels. Bakker, a Ph.D candidate in philosophy when he wrote the first five books (4 more are on the way), writes very well and thoughtfully. The tale is about the "Prince of Nothing" who comes from nowhere and rises to prominence. The series asks the question, "Which is more important, free will or destiny?" (Both Bakker and Erickson are Canadian, by the way.) The first trilogy is Homeric in scope and in its descriptions of battle. It is about a literal crusade into lands to be retaken from the "heathens." (This is fantasy, though, with lots of magic, and is not historical fiction.) Bakker's characters are well-drawn and interesting. The fourth and fifth books are not up to the level of the first three. For example, the climax of the fourth book is a virtual recreation of the "Mines of Moria" scene from Lord of the Rings. Nonetheless, you will enjoy the time spent reading this work. I think Joe Abercrombie is insufficiently appreciated on this thread. As someone said, it is low fantasy, not high, with relatively little "magic." Nor is it "epic," as each novel focuses on a relatively short slice of time. (One focuses on a single battle occurring over a three day period.) BUT - Abercrombie might be the best fantasy novelist out there if you like character development through dialogue. His well-known First Law trilogy is not as good as the succeeding three books: Best Served Cold, The Heroes (the one about the battle), and Red Country (this last a paean to Clint Eastwood, though it's not a western, especially Eastwood's Best Picture Oscar-winning film "Unforgiven"). These last three follow characters all created in the First Law trilogy, so you may have to slog through that first to gain context. But you will be well-rewarded. Finally, I have to give a nod to the all-timers, my picks for "Best Epics of All Time." First, the award for Best English Language Epic Fantasy goes to John Milton's Paradise Lost. Next, the award for Best Epic Fantasy Duology goes to Homer's The Illiad and The Odyssey. And the award for Best Epic Fantasy Trilogy goes to Dante's Divine Comedy. It's been said that all of Western culture can be recapitulated from just two works: Homer and the Bible (I guess that's three). I wouldn't disagree...

Oh, you just made that up AFTER I raised the question! (The power of the compiler...) Thanks, RShara. You're tireless. And this does clarify some things.

Actually, Seloun, after writing my post but before reading yours, I reflected that it may make more sense if these spren DIDN'T include Ivory. Perhaps they were a group of spren testing Ivory's judgment in choosing Jasnah, between whom a preliminary bond may have already formed. This characterization is consistent with Ivory's concerns over how the other spren view him. But you are correct: we really don't know. Hence the question in the OP. I always enjoy your posts, Seloun. They are routinely thoughtful and insightful. Thanks for your input.

Seloun, wouldn't Jasnah have to be bound before she could enter Shadesmar? No other spren were present than this group, of which the "respectful" one was the most prominent. He also "seemed satisfied" when Jasnah first entered Shadesmar. Not definitive proof, but awfully suggestive that that spren was Ivory.

Lightflame, my memory is faulty: did Sebarial actually appear or was he just referenced as the fellow who liked to dress his soldiers in traditional garb? (The perils of reading hardcopy - no search capability...) Also, where is that WoB?

Leuthie, your point would be valid if Ivory's only interaction was forcing Jasnah into Shadesmar. But he again threatened her when she was rescuing herself, causing her to form the statue of Taln (how ironic). It was only after that that he relented and signaled his respect. This makes me think that he was testing her worthiness to be an Elsecaller. Why? If she failed, would he have let her die?

Is it just me (don't answer that) or did anyone else think it odd how Ivory introduced himself to Jasnah in the Prologue? Was he testing her? Would he have actually killed her or let her die in Shadesmar if she hadn't been brave and resourceful enough to survive? No other spren first contacted their host that way (to our knowledge). What's up with that?

My two cents: He's Nohadon. Here's a recent exchange between Brandon and a sycophant: Q: So Nohadon's still alive, right? A: RAFO! Why would you say that Nohadon's still alive? Q: I know he's still alive. A: Why would you say he's still alive? Q: It's the perfect trick, that you're gonna bring back Nohadon. It's my feeling about things. A: Um... No evidence of this whatever, other than his strong leadership skills, his concern for the good of his people (economics rather than warfare), and the fact that he wears "traditional" clothing. Speculation is that he was a KR, Order unknown ("RAFO"). If KR are immortal (or close to) as is also speculated, then if he maintained his bond, he'd still be KR and alive.

RShara, is there something I missed that says "We know for sure that the Oathpact involved only the Heralds and Honor"? I had thought that there was at least the possibility that Odium was also involved (and maybe even Cultivation, though there is no evidence of that). That would explain why the Heralds were tortured between Desolations and that their resistance to that torture determined the timing of the Desolations. I also thought (based on recent WoB that you compiled - thanks!) that the Oathpact was still in effect, though the nine Heralds believed otherwise. In other words, the Heralds believe they might have broken the Oathpact, but in fact they didn't. Whether those nine Heralds are still bound to the Oathpact despite their refusal to return for more torturing is an open question. That doesn't necessarily affect your major point - that the nine untortured Heralds are now Odium's Champions - but I did want to point this out.

It's precisely because Szeth never expresses emotion that, when he does, Taravangian is shocked. Maybe its just PTSD, but the similar descriptions of Nalan's and Szeth's eyes can't be coincidental. Also, you can't point to post-rebirth Szeth comments to prove that he had emotions pre-rebirth. And "the person who calls himself Taln" is batty too from the torture, But he doesn't have "dead eyes" and is emotionless. In fact, his concern for life kicks in to save Amaram from the darts.

Nalan has consumed too much stormlight over the millennia. Syl says too much stormlight is “dangerous.” We know it leaches the soul by lightening eye color. I think the corollary is that increased Investiture forces out emotion to the point of having “dead eyes.” My evidence is from the Taravangian interlude. Szeth is described as looking at Adrotagia “with those too-blank eyes of his.” Then Taravangian observes: “Those eyes. The tone of the man’s voice. A dangerous tone. What – “He spoke with emotion, Taravangian realized. That last sentence was said with passion.” Szeth, like Nalan, has used his Honorblade way too much over the preceding six years. He has used excessive stormlight. It has killed his emotions. Szeth's expression of emotion surprises Taravangian. The same with Nalan. Many of us have posited that Nalan was the Herald that returned for his Honorblade. Honorblades are inefficient users of stormlight, making them, as Syl says, dangerous. WoB is that Cosmere magic acts by “wedging open cracks in the soul by letting the Investiture come in, and it can open the cracks more.” The cracks in the soul let the emotions out, just as Investiture comes in. That is why both Szeth and Nalan have “dead eyes” and are emotionless.

Okay, I'm not saying that surgebinding is not magic. It clearly is. I'm saying there is zero textual evidence, other than the "tariff" comment, that surgebinders ever ruled non-surgebinders. Surgebinders ruling themselves is a democracy or republic, not a mage-ocracy. Only if they rule others does it become a mage-ocracy. That's why I don't consider the comment about the one bondsmith "ruling in Urithiru" as evidence. Nor does owning the fastest system of transportation between cities make surgebinders a government or a ruling class, unless they leveraged that control to act as sovereign over others. Otherwise, every toll road operator would be considered sovereign. Having an economic monopoly does not make you sovereign even if you charge monopoly rates.

Who gave me my first downvotes ever? All I did was quote Brandon. And another WoB says that using more magic is “like wedging open cracks”: Q: “What other magic systems in the Cosmere have that same kind of if you use it a lot it gets better?” A: “It is a little bit more like wedging open cracks in the soul by letting the Investiture come in, and it can open the cracks more.”

More artistic renderings of Veil. First a line from King Lear that runs through my mind as I read SA: “As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods, They kill us for their sport.” Writers: John Le Carré: Veil would infiltrate a secret organization as a counter-spy. (Oh, wait, she’s already done that…) Dickens: Veil would observe and comment on every small detail she encounters. (Oh, wait, she’s done that too…) T. Dreiser or U. Sinclair: Veil would lament social injustice. Horatio Alger: Veil drags herself up by her raggedy bootstraps and achieves prominence and wealth. (And she’s done that too!) Milton: Veil would be the courageous, long-suffering epic anti-hero. Shakespeare: Veil would speak in iambic pentameter. Dryden or Pope: Veil would speak in rhymed couplets. Joyce: Nobody would understand Veil. T.S. Eliot: Veil would decry the insubstantiality of the modern world and focus instead on timeless values. (And have lots of mewling cats around…) Keats: Veil would speak lushly and romantically about pottery and birds and unrequited love. D.H. Lawrence: Veil would take her clothes off. Henry Miller: Veil would take her clothes off and do the nasty – a lot… Cervantes: Veil would become a knight errant and abject do-gooder. (Wait, she IS a knight…) Kafka: Veil would find herself in the most unusual situations. Dostoevsky: Veil would behave like Adolin. (Wait, she’s done that too…) Musicians and Composers: Hendrix or Clapton: Veil would speak incredibly fast in hard-driving rhythms. John Bonham or Keith Moon: Veil would speak like the Parshendi. Wynton Marsallis: Veil would be very brassy. Vivaldi: Veil would repeat herself a lot. Bach: Veil would speak with mathematical precision. Mozart: Veil would be vivacious and speak in the higher registers. Beethoven: Veil would be profound and speak in the lower registers. Wagner: Veil would speak bombastically. (Woody Allen joke: “I like Wagner. But after I listen to him, I feel like invading Poland.”) Brahms: Veil would be depressed. Dvorak: Veil would be sentimental. Stravinsky: Veil would start a riot. Schoenberg: Veil would invent a new way of talking. Painters and Sculptors Grandma Moses: Veil would appear as a stick figure. Titian: Veil would only wear red. Gainsborough: Veil would only wear blue. Watteau – Veil would only wear pastels. Van Gogh: Veil would only have one ear. Rodin: Veil would think a lot. Bartholdi: Veil would be colossal. Constable – Veil would always walk beneath clouds. Feel free to add others…

When did the KR ever rule? The Way of Kings is not The Way of Mages (or KR). And Nohadon's intent was to rein in surgebinders, not expand their power.

The surgebinders to our knowledge never ruled, despite the efforts of that binder in Nohadon's time. It's not that the general public didn't think surgebinders were magical, it's that they didn't consider them magicians or wizards - "mages." I do agree that the Old Magic is probably involved here - maybe referring to Adonalsium residue? I just think the Aimians might have been involved too. But I'm not pushing that theory. Brandon's comment was interesting, that's all.

WoB: Q: “You have a tendency to create books with theocracies that are legitimately ruled by the gods, and this seems to be missing. Is that a direction that the Knights Radiant might be heading, or is something else going to happen?” A: “I'm gonna RAFO that one. There was a theocracy on Roshar at one point. There was also a mage-ocracy. A lot of things have existed on Roshar.” Who would rule the mage-ocracy? Many candidates, but I’m going to suggest the Aimians. Rosharians don’t seem to view surgebinders as mages. And any being that can rearrange its body at will has to be considered magical. Other suggestions?

WoB: Q: “When does a person become a Surgebinder? Because Kaladin talks about when he was a child, about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?” A: “The bond starts forming before the words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like an emotion attracts a spren, acting in the way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond.” So the spren steal into youth beds to check these children out, and if they like what they feel about the child, they “bond” with them. Isn’t that illegal? EDIT: All right already! I'm sorry! I never thought this post would be so controversial! Mea culpa, mea culpa, maxima mea culpa. I'm home sick this week and obviously lost my head...

Cryptics seek artists to bond with. They are the “liespren.” They look for some mix of lies and truth, or more precisely, the lies that illuminate the truth – the artist’s deeper truth. That is why the Lightweavers are populated by artists, according to the in-book Words of Radiance. This got me wondering: what would happen if a different artist than Shallan drew Veil? Would Rembrandt’s Veil be much darker and more brooding? Would Monet’s sparkle with light depending on the time of day, or Degas' show her from the diagonal corner of the room? Would Vermeer’s shine with camera-like precision, or da Vinci's or Michelangelo's flow with an ideal perfection? And if Picasso drew Veil, how many breasts would he give her as he captured her movements through time? Any other “writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors” (Epigraph to Chapter 49) you might suggest? Just wondering…

What if KR can't form romantic entanglements, even if they want to? The two ardents in WoK couldn't despite their obvious affection, presumably because of their religious oaths. I doubt any of the KR oaths preclude relationships, but maybe the spren get in the way? 4 sentient beings in bed together? The image reminds me of the final scene of the 1969 movie "Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice," with Natalie Wood, Robert Culp, Elliott Gould, and Dyan Cannon all in the same bed looking at each other with an expression of "now what do we do?" There have been so many types of love triangles in movies, books and legends that I don't know what Brandon considers typical or conventional. As Seloun (whose posts are always so thoughtful and well-written) and others point out, the real and metaphorical distance between Kaladin and Shallan in Book 3 raises all sorts of possibilities for conflict and misunderstanding. Here's my take: Zandi proposed in this thread that Wit's "Fleet" story was Brandon's "reveal" of the "last chapter" of the entire Stormlight Archives series. (WoB: the last chapter of SA is revealed somewhere in WoK or WoR.) The idea of Kaladin's soul rising to race the wind eternally makes a lot of sense to me. I believe that the last chapter is after the last book's climax, perhaps many years after, just as the last chapters of WoK and WoR occur after the action in those books has concluded. But such an ending suggests to me that Kaladin is alone when he dies, just as Fleet was alone. Perhaps Kaladin's lover predeceases him, but I get a different sense. Given Kaladin's honorable nature, I can see him not pursuing Shallan at all while she's betrothed to Adolin. And by the time that relationship ends (if it does), Kaladin may be in his own relationship and honor-bound not to pursue Shallan for that reason. Kaladin so far has been a pretty tragic, even pathetic (meaning "marked by sorrow," not "pitiable") character. Brandon may create a situation where the two never get together despite their obvious love for each other. While hardly original, that would certainly not be a conventional resolution of the A-S-K triangle. I hope this perspective doesn't depress the "shippers" out there...

Thanks, RShara! Observer, I hope that takes care of your concerns.

Some mea culpas and several responses: First, since writing the OP, I discovered that the plural of "Shaman" is either "Shamans" or "Shaman" (like "deer" or "fish"). Not Shamen, as I wrote. Apologies... Second, to Observer (and others), I further apologize for giving stuff away in the Topic heading. I've since re-read the Spoiler Policy and discovered my error. If anyone knows how to edit or amend the Topic heading, I would appreciate your telling me. On to the responses: Tempus, I agree with you. In fact, my original OP included a paragraph about this, but the OP was so long as it was, I deleted that paragraph. The best evidence, in my view, of why Nalan might be a renegade Skybreaker is the WoB that a "member of an order" contacted Szeth. To our knowledge, only Nalan contacted Szeth (unless Taravangian has been holding back on us regarding his background?). "Patrons" are generally not members of the organizations they patronize (except maybe in the nonprofit world). Xbaucks first pointed this out on another thread. Patrons of art are not members of the artists' guilds, etc. I don't think Nalan being a renegade Skybreaker versus the actual Herald changes my analysis (although some here disagree with my conclusion on other grounds). Bramble Thorn, it sounds like you agree that someone in Shinovar taught Szeth his surgebinding skills, even though you say you're playing Devil's Advocate. Regarding the "use of Shardblades" discussion: Under my theory, the Stone Shamans (see! I can learn!) were the original Skybreakers, not their descendants but the real thing. They would still have their own Highspren forming their Shardblades for them, in addition to the Honorblades. The only reason they would need to use an Honorblade is to access surges other than Gravitation and Pressure. The WoK Rysn Interlude discussion between the Thaylen trader and the Shin merchant suggests Szeth was unique - perhaps the only Truthless, certainly of his magnitude. My guess is that only Szeth in all these centuries was given an Honorblade to use. It makes sense for the Skybreakers to compel Shin culture to decry weapons and warfare. They want order, and weapons and war tend toward chaos. (A little anti-Second Amendment lobbying by Brandon?) So make warriors into slaves, the lowest class, and forbid Shin from carrying weapons. But the Skybreakers still have their Shardblades, whether they use them or not, and still keep the Honorblades, to be used only on very rare occasion.

I see Dalinar DIRECTING armies - as you suggest - planning strategy, not tactics (which is the implementation of strategy). I do not necessarily see him on the field of battle. He will behave much like he did in the climactic battle on the plateaus. He remained in the command area for the most part, committing his armies and reinforcements to their desired positions. Adolin, for example, exercised tactical judgment when he chose to break through an old structure and attack the Parshendi from the rear. Melishi, in developing a plan, was also setting strategy. We're probably only talking semantics here, though. I think we'd agree that Melishi created a plan for dealing with the Voidbringers which he didn't record. But the Divine Attribute of "Guiding" to me sounds more spiritual in nature, like a clergyman guiding his flock. Guiding is not dictating. Guiding, joined with pious, reflects a spiritual orientation. But only Bondsmiths could bond. (Is bonding spiritual or cognitive or both or neither? Has Brandon said? Seems like it would be important to know and would affect an analysis of this point) The final, and maybe most telling point, is that there's no evidence that Parshmen existed before the Last Desolation. Jasnah in WoK suggests they didn't and were enslaved but not killed as a result of the human victory. That's why the admittedly speculative conclusion that Melishi "voided" the voidspren bonds (sorry) makes sense.

Moogle, there generally were only three Bondsmiths at a time. It is unlikely they led the fighting armies; that would have been the Windrunners, with their leadership attribute. Bondsmiths might have set strategy, but tactics would have been the province of the ones actually fighting. I agree with Argent. His is the more natural reading. Because Melishi didn't explain his process, that process was probably lost - which is why subsequent Desolations (assuming Melishi did not act during the last one) were not a "cakewalk." The fact that his process "was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address," also suggests that Melishi found a way to strip the Parshendi of their voidspren bonds.