Tempus

Hello again everyone. I have another topic that is yielding a few headaches for me, and that's the topic of - "What's in a realm?". Allow me to explain, but before I do you should go read the two quotes at the top of Realmatic Theory. Alright, fellows, so we have three realms. One is like our world, nice and filled with matter and forces and energy and things. One is a world full of glass beads that think they are sticks, giant solid oceans, Platonic Forms, and all around thinky thoughts. The last is some kind of strange glowy place with ghosts and webs and people spiders and energy and connecty bits. That's all stuff we kind of know. Now that the formal definitions are out of the way, let's get into the meat of things. We know very little about the spiritual realm, but a little bit about the cognitive realm. So that's where I'm going to be focusing. There are a few curious qualities about matter in the cognitive realm. • First is, all known solid matter in the cognitive realm represents the cognitive aspect of an object. So basically, ideas == matter. • Second - giving an idea investiture in the cognitive realm causes nearby matter to emulate the form of the object you invested. See the Jasnah prologue for details. • Thirdly, larger or older things tend to have larger material representations in the cognitive realm, as per the Palace or the Ocean. • Our fourth point of interest is that the spren live in the cognitive realm, but we have never seen any there (that we are aware of). So, what I want to know is - if spren are cognitive creatures come to the physical world, and humans are physical creatures that go to the cognitive world, and matter nature, density and size in the cognitive world all seem to be different from the physical and dependent on the cognitive aspect... How exactly do people transfer their bodies into the Cognitive Realm? It seems like it shouldn't be able to support things like bodies in the same way that the physical does. Spren, in the physical realm, also seem to have some issue with this, as noted by their strange invisibility, ability to shift form at will, their quantum nature related to intent as observed by the scholars, their inability to properly transfer with memories, and other such things. How exactly do spren become physical? How do human bodies and the things attached to them become cognitive? And why is it that they do not seem to change their form in the cognitive realm when everything else seems to have an aspect? Bonus question: Same thing, spiritual realm, GHOSTS. Discuss, because I'm rather stumped.

Investiture interferes with other investitures. Szeth could talk about shardplate making things difficult, because to fly or change gravity he lashes himself. We know that some orders of Radiants preferred not to wear shardplate. That doesn't discount that they could be a physical manifestation of a spren, only that Windrunners probably don't wear Shardplate regardless.

Probably the latter. Modern embalming for research purposes involves injecting the bloodstream with an embalming solution of formaldehyde, phenol, and ethanol, plus some other things. It's forcefully circulated around the bloodstream, until it infuses the body tissue. You can keep a cadaver like that in the fridge for a long time. Even just dropping a cadaver in a vat of alcohol makes em' last several months in fantastic condition. Notably, embalming fluids turn a cadaver's flesh grey. Added to the restoration powers of breath, and we can assume that the ichor alcohol is pretty much just a formaldehyde solution of some sort.

Incidentally, the reason I have investiture as spiritual radiation that is a particle/wave duality is that high masses of radiation form into deposits in both the physical world (like Atium) and the cognitive world (spontaneous sentience of splinters). We don't know if there is any similar change from a wave to a particle in the spiritual realm, so I presumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the spiritual realm was where the radiation was emitting from, like a shardic sun.

I think you're thinking of this theory: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3898-theory-the-jungles-of-hallandren/ No Word of Brandon that I could find.

I wrote the whole theory out, with thermodynamic laws and wave/particle duality and radiation rates and estimates on frequency scopes... but it doesn't all quite fit just yet, so I summarized the stuff I was certain of an put it above for people to draw their own inferences. Summarizing is cool. Nicrosil is a unique challenge. A feruchemist would be invested, that is to say suffused with radiation of a certain spectrum. One aspect I didn't go into in my theory is that the radiation is controllable by cognitive intent. A feruchemist's intent would take a given frequency of radiation, and transfer it into the metal focus as storage. Any given metal focus could only store the frequencies available to it. The frequencies correspond to physical traits, so emitting that radiation weakens that trait, and absorbing that radiation strengthens it. Nicrosil then, either converts frequencies to other frequencies, or stores a wideband frequency that encompasses all other frequencies. I'm not sure which, and I don't have sufficient information on Nicrosil feruchemy to decide at the moment. Either way, it becomes a 'unique' metal, since it's all meta. If investiture is a radiation that covers a band of frequencies, there should not be a frequency that refers to the band of frequencies. Thus, Nicrosil must act differently than other metals, and I'm not sure there's space in the continuum for something inconsistent. Then again, its correspondent Aluminium is also a weird metal, cosmere-wise.

Odium has been trapped somehow within the Greater Rosharan system - perhaps in the fight with Honor a chunk of him got torn off and sealed/hidden, making him too weak to leave or to go after other shards.

Given your theory as stated, it is also possible Darkness is not Nalan, and was banished from the Skybreakers in Shinovar, stole the Honorblade, and is out to pursue his own twisted interpretation.

Ah yes, the curator of the WoB compilation thread strikes again! Good call.

Ten. WoB has it that something important regarding the ending is hidden in the prologue of Way of Kings, like it was in Mistborn.

Another possibility - If intent-meshing is consistent, then there are six possible permutations. Thirty goes nicely into six. This would mean there are five magic systems that are of pure Honour, five of pure Cultivation, and five of pure Odium. There would then be another five Honor/Cultivation, another five Honor/Odium, and another five Odium/Cultivation. So, looking at the charts, we might assume for example, that five surges are pure Honor (probably the top five), and five are pure Cultivation (probably the bottom five). For voidbinding, if the second chart is voidbinding, it would be Honor/Odium and Cultivation/Odium. The last ten would be five for Honor/Cultivation and five for Odium alone, and currently unknown. We know the number of unmade is not ten... could it be five? That would fit nicely into the above framework. Leaving the Honor/Cultivation mix up as the Old Magic, perhaps, or something else. Just a thought.

Hello, I've been around for a couple weeks now, but I figured I should make an introduction topic. I'm Tempus - I'm here mostly for the theories. Love to read, love to make em', love to discuss em', love it when kurk points out how wrong I am . Besides that, I'm an accomplished fan translator and game modder, I own my own small mobile game studio, I studied creative writing at university under Cory Docotrow. I like to jog, I'm a 3 dan Go player, I enjoy strategy games, and I've read over 700 fantasy books according to goodreads. I love to make things, and I'm a bit of a jack of all trades - carpentry, electronics, computers, mechanics, sewing, scuplting, programming, design, and well, you name it and I've got a little experience in it. Notably, I am a really good cook. I'm Canadian, and speak three languages. I've got an adorable cat, and hot tubs are the best. Those are unrelated. I think that pretty much covers it, so... Hello!

Here I am, feel free to friend me up: https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/24215072-chronometrics

Thank ye kindly.

That's a good point, and I did not find that particular quote in my searching. Do you happen to know which interview it came from?

No, no, no. I would be invested from 'The Silence Divine'. Assuming the severity of the disease corresponds to the effect of the investiture (which seems likely given Brandon's penchant for logical systems)... Just one zombie bite, and I would have the best superpowers of all. I don't know what they are, but I would have them.

I've been unsatisfied with the definitions and explanations of investiture floating around here, and it's been causing me headaches, so I decided to gather up all the info I could, and make a theory. It's still under investigation, so I'd love it if people could contribute or poke holes in it. Hypothesis: Investiture is a form of Spiritual Radiation that follows the laws of Wave/Particle duality. Qualities of Investiture: • It has a pulse length • It has a frequency • It can infuse or suffuse an object • It can be removed from an object • Objects have a maximum capacity or tolerance for investiture • It can be transmitted • It forms systems • It is conserved within a given system • It leaves behind traces when an object has previously been infused with high concentrations • It is entropic • It is subdivisible • It can have a pressure, or more precisely, a directional force • It is constantly emitted from an invested object • One frequency of investiture interferes with another Given these qualities of investiture, we can notice a few things. Investiture is either a wave, or a wave/particle duality with very low mass. Investiture exists primarily in the spiritual realm (it affects emotions). Investiture behaves in many ways similar to a thermodynamic system, and obeys many laws similar to thermodynamic laws. Investiture behaves similar to radiant energy, such as light or electromagnetic radiation, and in other ways it is more similar to particle radiation. Conclusion: The conclusion I draw from listing these characteristics is as follows: Investiture is a form of radiation native to the Spiritual Realm of Realmatic theory. Shards emit a high quantity of this radiation, over a spectrum of frequencies determined by the intent of a shard. Any spiritual entity may become infused over time with this radiation, and invested spiritual entities also emit small quantities of radiation themselves (similar to being radioactive). Infusing a spiritual object with high amounts of radiant investiture will likewise mutate that spiritual object. A focus allows an individual with access to this radiation to convert raw radiant investiture to either a specific frequency of investiture, or to convert the energy of investiture to a physical force. An example of the former is feruchemy. An example of the latter would be Allomancy. The nature of the effect is determined by the frequency of the investiture, and the form of the effect is determined by the intent of the user. A selection of sources: (with all the organization of a dead duck) I say a selection because it is SO DARNED HARD to gather information for these things. Anyway, please discuss, refute, rephrase, or offer additions to the above definition of investiture. I have not spent the time yet to completely categorize and organize my thoughts on this into a formal theory, and would like to refine it before I do.

NutiketAiel, the problem with keeping an exclusivity to facts is that we have no guarantee of anything. We have, many, many in-text scenarios where what the characters believe to be true has turned out to be false. Situations where the characters have an incomplete understanding, where they have lied to each other, or just plain old unreliable narrator. So perhaps we can turn to the Word of Brandon for facts? Sadly, no. There have been a few occasions where Brandon has changed his mind, admitted to errors in the texts, where he contradicts an earlier Word of Brandon, or where he just plain misspoke himself. He mentions some occasionally in his interviews, and in his book annotations. So where are we to get fact from, in this mutable and unreliable world of fiction? We cannot trust the texts, we cannot trust the author. So, we do what science has done for hundreds of years - we write down everything we know, make the most logical inferences we can, and accept that what we know may become wrong in the future as more information becomes available. This is why science does not present itself in facts, but in theories and models. Like with science, we have no concrete facts to go on. Only evidence. But that does not mean that we should not record what we know, and what we suspect we know, so that they may be built upon or corrected in the future. If a person wants only what is recorded in the book, or by the Word of Brandon, they may refer to original text or source. If they want an article, however, covering the topic, then it is the proper thing to do to present them with all the information we have available, anything with a high enough threshold of confidence to be deemed acceptable until opposing evidence presents itself.

Dare I ask how the breaths consumed by Nightblood or returned fit in? is it a special property of splinters?

Alright this is good stuff to know. I know investiture's power has been referred to as a wavelength twice before. Notably by the scientifically advanced Elantrians. So then Investiture is a duality and can be defined as OR Is that correct?

Kurkistan - I'm honestly not following. The problem I have with end neutral arts is that the word 'investiture' isn't very specific. Sometimes it refers to an external, non-physical power (like the power that is accessed through metals). Sometimes it is a thing (like breath). Sometimes it refers to a physical power (like Stormlight). Sometimes it seems to refer to the ability to use power (like the Shaod), and then again to refer to the power (the Dor). It's... not specific enough for me. Likewise, I really am not convinced about awakening being end neutral. Because colour gets leeched. I don't really like the WoB there, it doesn't mesh for me. Can I say that I think Brandon is wrong about his own system and not get lynched? Awakening requires an external thing - colour. With no colour, Awakening doesn't work. When Awakening is used, colour is used, and the colour does not return when the awakening is cancelled. That's not end neutral. The breath itself is conserved, but the colour (and whatever the colour represents) is consumed, not conserved, and it is required for awakening. If a feruchemist sat in one spot he could store and tap into any given metal indefinitely, in any amount he'd like up to his maximum capacity. Nothing is used, everything is conserved. This just doesn't happen with awakening. Whatever causes the colour to go, it's limited and not conserved within the local system. The other thing I don't like is that IF breaths are the investiture/power source in an end neutral system, then that means attributes in feruchemy is the power source, and the investiture. But then, it would be silly to say that feruchemy can store investiture, because it would always be storing investiture. Because investiture would be what it stores, in the form of attributes. So again, we have either a crisis of terminology or an issue with breath as the power source in an end neutral system. Kurk, you're pretty much the smartest guy on the board here when it comes to these things, can you address these issues I see at all? In my original post, the lack of proper terminology for these things was killing me, and I think that we can't meaningfully discuss these things without a better set of terms regarding the meaning of investiture. As for the cognitive thing, I meant spiritual, I don't know what I was typing! And yes, just a theory, but very coincidental given the similarities. Though, there was a priest in Warbreaker who got his hand decoloured by nightblood - it was not made clear if that hand was immobile or still functioning, which leads me to believe it was still functioning...

Chromium is in Spiritual, though, and the spiritual realm has to do with the connections between things. That could very well have fortune as a part of it.

The investiture on Nalthis is not Breath, it is colour. When you use an awakening, the Breath remains unchanged. However, the colour drains away (very similar to how severing a cognitive presence with a shardblade makes the thing go grey). The investiture (the power source) is colour. The focus is Commands, where the focus on Scadrial is metal. I... honestly have no idea what breaths are, considering Returned breaths are splinters. Maybe they're really small splinters? I no longer have the terminology to discuss this.

I dunno, I just don't buy it. We know Sanderson is a logical guy, so I can't really justify even 300 years as plausible. Why not? Humanity existed on Yolen, with approximately Medieval technology. Written human history goes back about 6000 years now, to the beginning of the Bronze Age. We know that the Desolation occasionally brought the local civilization out of the Iron Age, and into the Bronze Age. We know that it was infrequent, but not uncommon, by the way 'Taln' talks. We know that it took Rosharans after the Recreance about 4500 years to get to the early Renaissance-ish tech. And a Rosharan year is slightly shorter, so the current tech advancement rate is about the same as humanity. So, given your conservative estimate of 300 years per Desolation, over 100 desolations, you're talking 30 000 years of human history on Roshar. We know that once Adonalsium shattered, the shards left the planet. We know that's about when humans migrated to Roshar. So, given that human history to the 'modern era' takes about 6000 years, give or take a thousand, why exactly are all the other planets on par with Roshar? Development on Scadrial was retarded 1000 years by the Lord Ruler, but we know Way of Kings and Alloy of Law are historically similar in time period. Sel has an even more advanced tech, especially Elantrians (who were already studying waveforms), and Elantris is many, many years earlier. Frankly, a 30 000 year gap where Roshar didn't advance in technology because it was getting Desolated doesn't make a lick of sense when we know there are at least seven other inhabited planets, none of which have any sort of modern technology, all within the same 1000 years of so of human historical development. It's just too much of a stretch. Even assuming Roshar was first, I can't really support more than an 1000 year delay to global tech. A more likely scenario might be - the Vorin church lied. 99 is a very coincidental number for the 'last Desolation' to stop at. 9/10 of the population dead per Desolation wouldn't recover even in 300 years - in post-agriculture, pre-industrial societies, historic earth compound birth rate for 300 years maxed out at 400% or so, and was more often stable due to inability to support populations past a certain range. 400% is a far cry from the 900% needed to repopulate, and at a 50% loss of population per Desolation, the population would be negligible (<1%) by about the 7th Desolation. So, overall, some severe doubts about the time span and ferocity of the Desolations as described.

Do you have a quote on that? I haven't actually seen anything like that and I've been cruising the Brandon quotes a lot lately. Also, the 'superspren', or the well-known named spren, are definitely not the same type of spren. They share no particular known characteristics other than they are well known enough to be given a name. Everything else we know about them - appearance, role, behaviour, mythos, origin... those all differ vastly.