Elbereth

Here’s your explanation. Hopefully the last I have to say on the topic, because at this point it’s counterproductive discussion (I certainly don’t think there’s anything alignment indicative to be gained from it, and the GMs have all but said the same). When I accidentally looked in the spreadsheet, the names at the top were Hoid and Khriss (because of how the spreadsheet is set up). In the brief moment I glanced at the sheet, I saw that they had different names than I was using, and exited out. I did so well enough to remember at least one correctly, but apparently misread Khriss’ identity (potentially as the name underneath her?). The GMs didn’t tell me this and acted as if I had both identities correct, which is why I was so certain that I hadn’t misread. My best guess is that Seonid either didn’t consider the amount of claiming that would result, or that I would counterclaim based on spreadsheet information. Thus the resulting mess. I would point out that, as has been noted, I had absolutely no reason to lie, and additionally think that even were I evil this would be a phenomenally pointless ploy. I’m mostly fine with being lynched - it’s ironic enough, certainly, though I wouldn’t mind lasting past D1 of a Shard game sometime - but think that doing so over a point which the GMs have almost explicitly said shouldn’t be considered for analysis is rather irritating. Is that enough of an explanation, @Steeldancer and @Jondesu?

Yup. Though Elbereth is slightly more interesting than her story in LotR. You and Drake should both read the Silmarillion. In the interest of the thread not completely derailing, Mage reads as normal to me, honestly. I can see how his words feel off - and would call him out for exactly the same words if it were anyone else - but that style seems to be just a thing Mage does, as far as I can tell. I don't think anything pointed out is alignment-indicative.

Having only briefly read the thread - I’m not entirely sure what’s happening here (and am deeply sorry to the GMs for causing such a mess in the first place), but think it’d be best to leave that discussion completely and render it NAI. ...nevermind, given Rae’s post. I apparently misremembered what I read, or something? I apologise again for the mess, then, and will move on. My vote on Devotary standsc though, as my initial reason for it is still valid. ...no. Bringing up NAI discussion is not NAI in itself. I personally view it as suspicious, which is why I pointed it out. Further more detailed responses forthcoming when I get back from dancing.

My point stands. You're bringing up the discussion of whether we should have a lynch or not, which tends to be non-alignment indicative discussion. Why? (And it's not the last. The Shardworlds could still work. There's no reason to think they'd be any better than the lynch, though.) 1. My point is that you're not bringing up the obvious reason for Sharders taking charges of Odium, and instead seem confused as to why anyone would. Is that because you actually hadn't thought of it, or some other reason? 2. I can make precisely two claims about the previous distribution: who Hoid was, and who Khriss was. (I didn't see who Survival was, because the sheet is set up in such a way that Hoid and Khriss are at the top, and I noticed that I was in the wrong one by those names being different.) I am willing to make neither of those, as it is up to those individuals to claim or not. I am willing to confirm that Devotary was wrong, though, in order to give her(?) more time to respond, as I know that a counterclaim will happen sooner or later regardless of whether I say anything. 3. First, four elims in 22 players is pretty normal. Less than that is certainly possible, but I don't see what we'd gain from assuming it and not lynching just in case we have a slightly higher chance of hitting a villager than usual. Second, is there any reason why we want them dead all that much less than normal villagers? Lynching a Shard could well have the advantage of making the Shard convert a cycle later than it would've, if the holder intended to keep it.

From last night: @Young Bard, so you're going for the sudden death win condition because it's unlikely to work? I can't be too suspicious of you for that because it's the sort of thing you would do, but I still question your logic. (Also, Wilson and I extend our formal apology for the spreadsheet not being up to date. We're working on it.) From today: Devotary of Spontaneity. This post reads to me as very off. It's no longer commonly discussed, but there was an eliminator tell for a while when eliminators would be overly happy in thread about the death of a teammate, and this feels along those lines. Also, you weren't Khriss last time. (Which I am hesitant to reveal, but it'd be counterclaimed sooner or later anyway, so I have no qualms about speeding up the process.) @Magestar, it seems very obvious to me why villagers would want charges of Odium. It seems unlikely that you can't come up with a single reason. @Steeldancer, you are not the only person. I can't recall the other - Bard, perhaps? But there has been at least one more. @Hemalurgic Headshot, if I weren't voting on Devotary I'd vote on you. We've already discussed that we'll have a lynch today and why, and now you're proposing we discuss whether to do so (a very safe topic of discussion, I'd add) merely because we might hit a Vessel? How do you propose we kill the elims, then, given Odium and Ruin are already released? How is another kill method any more accurate than the lynch? @_Stick_, Hoid can't convert Shards. That said, targeting Odium and siphoning a charge in order to make it released earlier is honestly pretty possible, if he wanted to reduce pressure on him by adding a new target for the village into the mix. (I wouldn't necessarily agree with that move, as it also adds more problems for him, but could see it happening.) RP will be coming, MM, I promise (though if you want to RP with anyone else you're free to wander off), but I'm going to breakfast first.

Ah, apologies - meant to add RP to the bottom of my last post and didn't. Before I do so, Drought - I don't recall world PMs as being anywhere near as useful as 2-person PMs, in the two (?) games I've GMed with them. Though the worlds being docs could help with that. And agreed with Stick about not revealing anything we're not supposed to know. Hoid/Khriss talking about the strategies they thought of would be fine, I expect, but that's about it. @TheYoungPyromancer, maybe run it by Seonid whether you should say Survival's wincon, first. @Devotary of Spontaneity, I agree that PMs are useful, certainly, but I don't think that everyone being able to PM is worth the ammount of coordination necessary. Those who want to PM will be able to. (Basically, agreed with Randuir. And ninja'd by him.) Elaria stared at the gardener for a second, working out the details of the plan in her head. As she opened her mouth to speak, something happened. Light, and burning, and something her mortal mind wasn't meant to handle - the spiritual realm? a bit of her thought, staying scientific despite whatever was happening. She felt herself being examined, and... frowned at? How very bothersome, a voice said. Then the world twisted, and she was lying in the grass again. She sat up, trying to stop her head from spinning. "What."

You haven't actually answered my question. What is the benefit of everyone being connected in a PM circle?

Sorry about that, all. >> And Steel, I'm usually the one in charge of making timelines consistent. Whoops. I would point out that literally everyone, regardless of changed alignment, will say that their position has not changed since last cycle. Everyone saying that and nothing else being discussed is not a useful state of affairs. So while we can't use the past turn for determining alignment, we can still discuss and build off the ideas of last turn. In light of that, I have a few responses to people last turn: @Magestar, while I think it's possible that an intermediary would be useful with other Shards, Survival seems most useful as an intermediary between the evil teams. Which is definitely enough to counterbalance their use to the 17th Shard. @livinglegend, the main issue I see with your plan of coordinating so Shards don't get released is that what's most likely is that Hoid and Khrissalla steal as well, and not only get a 1/3 chance at a Shard of their choosing, but know which two people almost certainly have the Shard if they don't receive it. That sort of information is well worth a conversion, in my opinion, and wouldn't set Hoid and Khriss back at all. @TheYoungPyromancer, I'm personally completely ignoring Silverlight being in the Cognitive Realm, mostly because we don't know enough about it to write well in it. Also, from this turn - @Devotary of Spontaneity, could you clarify what the benefit of your plan is? Having a PM circle 1) isn't going to last long, since people will be dying, and 2) isn't necessarily the most useful thing in the world. Why do you think that provides enough benefit for the detriments you listed?

@randuir, the village can't win on turn 1. We could potentially win on N1 if we managed to lynch one of Hoid/Khrissalla and kill the other, but all Shards being in containment isn't the only requirement for sudden death. I'll note regarding the sudden death win conditions of Hoid and Khrissalla that both are nearly impossible (particularly Khriss', as I recall, since we could just lynch any world she invested) and rely on the survival of a single person, so are highly unlikely to be shot for unless someone is particularly risky or idealistic (looking at Bard and Drought, in particular, as likely candidates for that sort of move). @Magestar, I'm confused what you think Survival would be a good intermediary for, and particularly since communication in this game is so limited. Elaria winced at the loud voice nearby. I'm making it so people like you can be employed here, she thought to herself. She didn't say it, though, because she was occupied with another thought. Shards could change you, everyone knew that. But what about bits of them? If she pulled a charge from a Shard, would that affect her? Would it influence her in exactly the same way as its parent Shard, or did tiny bits each have individual effects? She grimaced. It was doubtful that anyone would let her take charges while Survival was gone, though. She'd just have to take them in secret. But how would... "Hey!" she yelled, opening her eyes and sitting up suddently. "Come back here, I need help!" @MonsterMetroid if your character isn't too far away, feel free to respond, and the same goes for anyone who wants to be in the vicinity. I look forward to coming back to several more pages when I land...

Regarding Bard/Orlok's discussion of announcing investiture: @Young Bard, the issue I see with saying what we're going for is that if a Shard does get released despite announcements (which seems likely, as I'm nearly certain not everyone will announce), is that the eliminators now have an excellent idea of who may be holding which Shard. I'd rather not give them that extra information, though I can see how it could benefit the village if a Shardholder decides to keep their Shard. @Orlok Tsubodai, one of your counterpoints to Bard is that Shards are likely to be in the village hands if released now, and if later may be taken by a conversion team. I would point out that said Shards have very little guarantee of staying in the village's hands: either they're passed around in order to stop conversion (letting them fall arguably more easily into eliminator hands, as a concerted effort would have to use up all or nearly all of their actions), or they aren't (in the case of, say, Steeldancer getting Odium) and the sooner they're released the sooner we have to deal with them in addition to the conversion teams. @Droughtbringer, did you get any response from Seonid about PMs with dead players? @Orlok Tsubodai, I'd also point out that those converted are highly unlikely to make any difference to their reads, particularly if they have stated reads, unless they're forced to back down slowly on a teammate they were absolutely certain was evil (and if so, that'll be obvious regardless of stated reads). Arguably, having everyone announce their reads makes it easier for coverted players to stay consistent. @TheYoungPyromancer, regarding total number of elims, I agree that the teams total will have slightly more than you'd expect from an evil team, but not much more. Seonid has made the mistake before of balancing every faction in the game except the village, and I doubt he'll do so again. @Young Bard, the eliminator teams holding a Shard is definitely more useful than you think. First, Hoid and Khrissalla can't be converted, so they could hold a Shard without fear. (Shards grant an extra action, too, so they could still use the Shard and simultaneously convert.) Secondly, I highly doubt that any Shard has a win condition wherein their best incentive is to reveal the evil team directly to the thread. That would be broken, and I trust the people who went over this game to have thought of that. Also, "passing Shards between players who we believe are Village" works only so long a) as we're right, b. those people aren't known to the public so they don't die, c) those people are able to coordinate regardless. That seems rather unlikely. I'm about to get on a plane, so will finish this post when I land. (Including RP, I promise.)

Wilson and I just researched this together (as we both immediately started checking the answer), and LG38 has the longest signups at 10 pages. (Which, if you look at the rules, is somewhat unsurprising.) QF15 gets an honourable mention at 8 pages, because it had a ridiculous amount of pregame RP. 4-6 pages seems to be average.

Same method as we're now using for Araris and Straw, Jondesu. So, who knows?

From memory for LG29 and LG26's World PMs, they don't tend to be very active. Occasionally there'll be an active world, but people are shy about group PMs. Definitely not. I doubt this is even half that. I don't know what it is, but could take a look around.

That phishing amused me so much. I was trying to figure out in which PM Orlok found out, and I couldn't find it... He roleblocked Orlok, again, I think.

IP address, usually, along with other factors (so, if you're sharing a computer with your brother, you won't get banned, clearly). It's the way he was taught in school. (As was I, in fairness, and I eventually just ignored that.)

Well done. Not you can bother everyone who's bothered by that while Alv is gone and can't. (It's probably worth noting that having an alt account is a bannable offence on the Shard.)

Alv puts two spaces between each sentence. (And I am not sorry, Drought. )

That I am very definitely not. You should look at Aonar's posts sometime. But I am more used to other settings (as I haven't posted nearly anything but writeups in a few months on here, so have been talking much more in chats), and in particular is/was a very common emoticon here that I hadn't really seen used as extensively anywhere else.

Friendly debates are a hallmark of the Shard, in my experience. And particularly of this forum - after all, we all have to be able to lynch each other and call each other evil while still being friends. This is one of the least competitive places to play mafia that I know of, and friendliness keeps it that way. (Join the SE Discord, if you'd like even more friendly debate. ) Sure, the win condition for Odium is hard. If it's anything like previous games (which honestly isn't too likely as GMs are trolls), he's a SK. SKs are nigh-impossible to win. But - they're also fun. And the idea of holding a Shard and trying to achieve its win condition is very fun, even if it's nearly impossible. (That's what makes these games work despite everything being OP - everyone has fun anyways.) Without accountability of "I have a Shard and will pass it this turn so I don't get converted", I could entirely see people holding Shards. There's also the curiosity factor of what exactly the win condition is. So I think that there's quite enough to incentivise people to keep Shards if they want to. Seonid, far as I know, usually balances almost entirely RNG. And you've already been active enough to show that you're probably not going to go inactive. Don't worry. (Though if Seonid weren't known for RNG, you might either have a great chance at Hoid or no chance at all, more likely the latter. Be careful about saying what you want publicly. ) (and you really didn't need to bother mentioning me )

While this is partly true, it's dangerous as a) Shard-passing groups are both difficult without PMs, make the chance of it coming into an elim's hands highly likely (and particularly of the rest of that group getting killed off), and c) people will be tempted to be converted by shards. Also, keep in mind that in order to win the 17th Shard needs every Shard back in containment. The more Shards that are uncontained, the harder that will be. Also, in the beginning, the eliminators won't have enough numbers to pull out Shards - if the villager were to abstain from taking any charges for a few cycles, that'd be a perfectly valid stratgety (though not one likely to occur). Not really - you can reference it to prove that it isn't coming from a place where you're already evil, but having a baseline before the game actually makes it easier to hide as someone converted. So it makes your thought non-alignment indicative (ish - whether you bring it up again or not could be seen as indicating alignment in some way), but not saying anything about your innocence either. There's already one Shard out of containment at the beginning of the game, I believe. This will vary based on the person. Often, but not always, playing to your current win condition is a more appropriate thing to do. Not everyone follows that rule, but in my opinion your goal is for you to achieve your win condition. If you work against said win condition because it's possible it could change, that's in a way betraying your win condition. As I see it, the game is supposed to work with each player playing to your win condition. Also, setting up techniques for others to know, in my opinion, makes the game more fun - we have had similar things happen in the past (with less absolute certainty of conversion involved), and in previous cases the person in question had to work harder to get around their own traps. I enjoy the idea of that challenge, personally. Basically, I wouldn't call that a major mistake. It's something that will vary based on the person, but is a perfectly legitimate style of play depending on your precise values about the game.

Yes, definitely. Just don't discuss game-relevant stuff. Elaria lay on her back, staring up at the leafy foliage of one of Silverlight’s enormous indoor gardens and enjoying the silence. While the lab was objectively more useful in terms of resources, she made do with a simple notebook every once in a while in return for the chance to think somewhere more pleasant. They’d used to make fun of her for it, but she always had her best ideas for experiments out here. She yawned. At least, she had her best ideas for experiments when she didn’t fall asleep instead... Signing up as Elaria, please. I expect I’ll focus more on RP than gameplay, in an effort to keep myself invested in the game more effectively, but we’ll see what happens. I look forward to playing with all of you.

The LG42 thread is already 12 pages, and this makes a 13th or so. LG31 was 13 pages in total including the aftermath. (It was a very short game.) So... I don't think you'll make it, personally. You might already have lost - I'm not bothering to compare post counts and check. Would've been a good record to set, though.

Regular and recurring. It's a term that was coined a long time ago to replace "experienced players", because there are some problems with the connotations of that.

I think the way it would best work is for the new player to get the anonymous account (or not; it honestly doesn't really matter if they're anonymous or not) and the mentors are assigned to a new player and get a PM set up with them. It's not known who has which mentor (if mentors are even known at all and don't sign up through PMing the GM) so that elims don't kill based on that information. While I don't think the game has to be based around that, I wouldn't give it too many different or weird mechanics, because a relatively standard game would do better for teaching. The thing I'd wonder about, mostly, is the cutoff - what ratio of "old players" to "new players" do we have, here? I'm not sure how well that'd work, honestly. And regarding being undeceived in docs, I expect that's a reference to discussing how your playstyle (and more specifically your old one) revolved around PMs, and that you're good at catching eliminators in them. (Sometimes. )