entropicscholar

Aether, I really apreciate your input here (I prefer being right over mearly thinking that I am right, so you correcting me is very good). I'm still reading over "The Effects of Squirearchy", but I'll try to respond to a few of your thoughts, quickly. False. Kaladin is not a full Radiant, nor did his Squires appear only after his third Oath. Very good catch, and I certainly can't argue with it. I think it would be more accurate to claim "the power granted to aknight's squires is proportional to the number of oaths the Knight has stated" Thereby, a knight having stated the 2nd oath can grant 'the innate ability of their order' (which is, in the case of windrunners, fighting skill), and a Knight having stated the 3rd Oath can allow at least some of his squires the ability to breath in stormlight. We have no firm evidence either way for the first part of this assertion. Some seem to believe that they might have lesser versions of the surges. Windrunners are hyper mobile and have the most Squires, and their excellent mobility would be rather wasted as shock troopers without having their supportive infantry being able to follow somewhat quickly. But then again, as they do not have a Nahel bond, they might not have any access to the Surges at all. . The second part of the assertion seems trivial. I don't think there is any limit to who can use fabrials. There might be some side-effects to using fabrials the wrong way (modern Soulcasters) or using them without Stormlight retention or whatever, but I find it somewhat trivial to say that Squires can use fabrials, as the current evidence suggests that everyone can. Perhaps it would be more revealing if I claimed that because Squires cannot utilize surges (which, true, we don not have solid evidence of), the Surge-mimicing-Fabrials were invented specifically so that the Squires could learn and use the surges prior-to/without-ever becoming Knights. We do not know that this is true. Personally, I do not think that it is a lack of Stormlight healing that give modern Soulcaster their crystalline appearance, but a fatal flaw in how they use them or in the Soulcasters themselves. I do not see any reason to find one answer more likely than the other. I was assuming that these effects were because of some flaw in the fabrials themselves. though I may or may not be correct in that assumption: the idea that the side effects come from misuse of the fabrials appeals to me very much (Rosharan magic being primarily behavior and beleif based, in nature). However, I stand by the statement that Squires would suffer lesser or no harm from such side effects. 1. stormlight healing should correct most problems, assuming that the injuries to be healed have not become a part of how the individual identifies themself. (Kaladin can't heal his forehead brand, so modern soulcaster--if they identify themselves and their station by their disfigurements--may have similar issues) 2. Squires, by virtue of their bond to a radiant, would be less likely to misuse the fabrials. (else they risk losing their status as squires) I do think it has to be a mutual respect and loyalty, though. Bridge Four gets their Squire abilities from their close relationships and friendships with Kaladin, and he is fiercely protective of them, just as they are of him. Sorry for leaving that out, you're definately right that it needs to be mutual.

I was not aware of the 4th and 5th Oaths. This does answer some of the questions I still had about the Radiants (Shardplate, for example). would you mind posting your evidence on that, so that I can glean details? Also, I completely agree with your assertion on Squires becoming Knights, and Knights Radiant being limited in numbers. Knights Radiant are definately capped, and not all squires become knights.

The Advent of Squires. My Theory is simple: squires gain their power through loyalty to and admiration of existing Knights Radiant, Thus acquiring a bond to the Knight, rather than to an actual spren. This ability is what separates the Nahel Bond, and Knights Radiant from Ancient Surgebinders. Rules: 1. it requires a Knight Radiant in full status (all three oaths) to attract Squires. This is why Squires only started appearing after Kaladin said his 3rd oath. 2. Squires have only one oath: the first oath, shared among all orders of Knights Radiant. 3. Squires are not bonded to a spren; they derive their ability to breath Stormlight from their bond to a Radiant. (Lopen would be bonded to Kaladin, etc) 4. Squires cannot utilize surges, but do gain enhanced healing, strength, etc. from holding stormlight. Anchiently, Squires likely used fabrials to mimic the surges they lacked. Consequences: 1. The number of people able to utilize Stormlight grows exponentially, rather than logarithmically. The number of people able to utilize stormlight increases drastically. 2. The existence of Squire allows an 'introductory phase' in which a person can get used to following the Radiant Oaths, or even transfer from one order to another, prior to any spren actually agreeing to bond them. This reduces the risk of a spren being killed by lack of faithfulness to oaths. 3. 'side effects' from the use of powerful Fabrials (such as soulcasters, and other fabrials which mimic the surges) are mitigated. {Note that soulcasters, over time, gain a very odd appearance, stone-like flesh, etc. one who could breath stormlight would have these effects healed long before they manifested fully.} 4. The 17th shard may make use of Squires, allowing their world-hoppers to power their off-world abilities with stormlight. (a separate theory in its own right, but worthy of consideration) EDITED: to correct and clarify

Known: A Radiant-spren bonded to a Knight Radiant dies if that Knight betrays their oaths. Theory: If the Knight Radiant does not betray their oaths, but instead dies, the Spren will be perfectly fine, and free to either return to Shaedsmar or form a new bond. Syl: I think she bonded to Knights before, but they all died. she likely had many friends who died in the Recreance, but her Knight did not betray his/her oaths along with the rest (or, she was in Shaedsmar at the time).

Two notes, both might be important. 1. we know that voidspren do not require a host the same way honorspren do. I am not sure whether it was Rlain or Syl who stated this directly, but it seems to me that this could be a very important, and very dangerous detail, worth considering. 2. I would pose that one of the powers granted by voidbinding is Animation. Assuming that the spren possessing this ability, and have even a limited ability to utalize that power without a bond to parshmen that could explain the existence of Thunderclasts quite nicely. (Syl used adhesion in 'pranks' against Kaladin even before she was sentient) Given this, it is a safe assumption that Thunderclasts AND Midnight essences are mearly corrupted spren in solid form.

Though many of the statements here have assumed otherwise, Drabs are not incapable of using investature. They are not incapable of gaining investature either (they can have breath donated to them by someone else, for example.) (The difference betweena normal person and a Drab, in many ways, is similar to the difference between a full cup, and an empty one, not a full cup and a broken one) Knowing that, a Drab should be just as eligible for a Nahel bond as any other worldhopper. (of whome we have very few concrete examples)

Brandon has said one thing I know of to clarify what Aluminium does : Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities. so, yes. Aluminium could destroy the Hemelurgic spikes an inquisitor carries, but it may/may not requre a savant in order to accomplish the full effect. --- sidenote 1: burning Aluminium would likely use up all the aluminium prior to the spikes being completely destroyed (aluminum anialates itself as well as other metals when used) sidenote 2: partial but incomplete destruction of a hemelurgic spike can cause some "very strange" side effects. (Brandon mentioned a few times hemelurgy can do very odd things when used improperly, or is tampered with. See Allomantically burning a Hemalurgic Spike)

When a person receives investature from a Shard, and uses it, (allomancy, stormlight, etc) is the holder of the Shard always aware of this expendature?

I beleive an instrament could be commanded to play, but could not necessarily awakened to do so. Vasher does something similar with fighting: he commands a set of clothes to "fight as I would", allowing the clothing to fight with the same skill as Vasher himself. Clearly, this requires an unusual mastery of awakening, but a similar principle could probably be applied to music. ("Play X song as I would play it.") Even if this kind of command failed, "repeat the next song I play" would still have a chance of success. my thought on why this might work is because, though 'music', 'fight with skill', and 'good and evil' are all abstract concepts, the command to "do as I do" is less so, because there is a concrete example to follow.

Hey!

No, endowment works by voluntarily giving things, not taking them. I think Vasher was refering to the command he used earlier in the story to let the captured little girl 'give away' her memorys of imprisonment to Vasher.

same. don't know if we have Cultivations name though.

I always assumed they would be drab, but I don't know if there has ever been an official statement on this.

Thx

of all the magic systems the two most powerful / flexible ones seem to be AnonDor and Ferrochemy. I wonder how many Rao tattos I'd need to get, to draw Aons like an Elantrian...

am I the only one here that's thinking about what world I lived on changing me? If I kept my current personality, I'd probably qualify to be a Lightweaver/Elsecaller/Willshaper. given that Elsecalling is the most obvious route to worldhopping, and is available to two of these three, that would be high on the list of choices. Consideringing that my upbringing would likely change if I had been born on another world, I'd say Nathis. I actually have several minor, clinical disabilities, so silence might be nice too, but Breath just seems so flexible. What's to say you can't just steal it at knifepoint? (again: different upbringing)

Two questions I think have probably been answered before: 1) What kinds of things can BioChromatic Breath be used to give to another person or object? Giving memories to people and animation to objects are both clear from the books, but what other things are there? is the answer "You can give anything, if you know the right command"? 2) Has Brandon Expressly stated that Honor was Splintered? Cultivation? Or has he simply stated that the holders of these shards died? I thought I read somewhere that Cultivation lost her powers, but did not die.

Does Hemelurgy change the genetic structure of the recipient, allowing them to pass down stolen powers to their children? (Alloy of Law says 'yes' [Koloss blooded humans] but I want confirmation anyways)

I think this it the pivotal point to remember. each magic system has a two main parts: 1-effects, 2-fuel. the effects are determined by the system itself, but the fuel (apparently) is much more flexible, and usually world-specific. We all assume Nightblood can consume stormlight instead of Breath, but I think he can only do so if the person holding him has a spren-bond. (brandon has revealed that Nightblood 'is a shardblade' and therefore a spren, which means that Szeth can just bind with him.) I would say "yes" they can. but you have to give them the ability to breath in stormlight first. I also think this is what Sanderson was talking about when he said "juryrig" a magic system. The MAG suggests that this is the ONLY way a normal ferrochemist can fill a nicrosil mind. If I read correctly, the game suggests that a nicrosil mind can only be filled by taking investature from an active source that the ferrochemist has access to. thereby, if the ferrochemmist gains Biochromatic Breath, he can store it in a nicrosilmind. if he has physical strenght, weight or health, he can transfer this to an appropriate metalmind, and then directly to his nicrosilmind. (same for stormlight, etc. you need marginal access to the other magic source)

That makes sense then. Especially if the Stormfather is a sliver or splinter of Honor--if that's the case, the power for the bond would probably come from him directly or indirectly.

from your quote, Seloun, it looks like 'Nahel' may indeed refer specifically to the bonds of the Knights Radiant. ---- However, I would say that the assumption that the stormfather is always involved in forging bonds is highly suspect (The Stormfather cannot 'assign' every bond between human and spren, as Syl has stated directly that she bonded herself to Kal In Direct opposition to the Stormfather's will.). The assumption that Kaladin did not have a bond to Sylphrena at the beginning of Way of Kings is even more suspect. (your reference says 'Words of Radiance': not correct) (*spoiler warning* there is actually a teaser hidden in WoK--one of Kaladin's Flashbacks in Hearthstone--that suggests Kaladin used Stormlight prior to joining the army {he did not yet know that is what it was}. Also, in Lift's interlude [Words of Radiance], Walden claims that the is bonded to Lift because the Nightwatcher asked him to be. Shallan's bond is similarly unlikely to have occured due to a highstorm--life of luxury, bond made prior to her mother's death, etc. Nothing definative, of course, just some details that should be considered.) Good catch on the specificity of 'Nahel', though, and I do like to think that humans would be capable of more bonds than just those 10, but I don't think you have evidence to support the rest.

yeah, I did some rereading, that theory at the bottom of my post above is totaly bogous... sorry about that.

Ok, I looked back at where I'd thought I saw otherwise: it looks like you're all right. I do wonder where I got that idea though... ---- and Thankyou, to kaellok, for the quotes.

Upvote for Ati. To Confused, I recently started a Thread, that may explain why a bit about why "Radian Spren" abandoned the listeners. I don't adress the question directly, but it may explain why some spren don't like bonding to the listeners. That said, These things seem to imply that Listeners had a bond to spren, and possibly could surgebind, before men could. It also seems to state that The change that listeners suffer--the one I presume Odium inflicted upon them which makes them scarcely able to think, without the aid of a spren-bond--occured after the spren abandoned them. Could it be, that at some time in history the Listeners/parshmen/parshendi abandoned their Radiant Oaths, similar to the way humans did at the day of Recreance? Could it be that they did this in response to the Heralds betraying their oaths? Could it be that the spren felt that the listeners had abandoned them, and began bonding with men in response to this? And that the Listeners, seeing the Spren do this, felt betrayed themselves (despite them, and the Heralds being the ones at fault), and in turn, began to serve Odium instead? And he made them his slaves (because he's Odium, and they were willing)? all speculation, but it seems a reasonable line of progression to me. (I would also guess that they were not the same kind of surgebinders that we know of today, but rather that their race has some innate ability, and that the 10 types of "Radiant Spren" came along later)

The pious/guiding Orders of Radiants are the Windrunners and Skybreakers. --- We already Know all 3 Oaths for the Windrunners, so it's not one of theirs. We also know that Szeth is a Skybreaker (and a VERY good one, as far as Oaths go), so in order for this 'light in the darkness' Oath to belong to the skybreakers, he would have to fit it. I'm not really seeing that. maybe truthwatchers, probably not. My thought was that Skybreakers exemplify Law: the letter of the law. ------------ Overall, the oath seems very general. "light" can be interpreted in innumerable ways, and does not demand specific action. "I will protect those who cannot defend themselves", does demand specific action. ------------- (If you want my source on which orders were the "pious" ones, I can provide a large table that answers this for ALL of the orders of radiants)