entropicscholar

my guess is that worldhopping is easier to learn if you start on Roshar than it is on Scadrial. I was also given the impression that Liss was associated with the Ghostbloods. (a suprisingly convenient position for a worldhopper to find themself in.)

I was thinking that was probably it. in order to have multiple bonds at once, you would need to follow the Oaths for every spren bound. you would probably have to uphold the "ideals" of each order you were a member of, even if they are not part of the Oaths (Syl told Kaladin to never lie, etc) This would make keeping all of the Oaths more difficult, and make it easier to accidentally kill one or more of your spren, if they conflict. Kaellok, would you mind posting that WoB quote? ------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I remember one of the Heralds being a Parshman (need to double check that though), why would they not be able to bond Radiantspren?

I always assumed that they created gemhearts the same way clams create pearls. Once they have the gemhearts on the other hand... lots of possibilities there.

The Nahel Bond The Nahel Bond is the spren-bond that grants humans and parshendi access to surgebinding and voidbinding. If a "cultivation bond" exists, it probably falls under this heading as well. The quallification to receive the bond is primarily about behavior. It requires either a willing—or at least accepting—subject in order for it to work. (or in the case of Eshonai, one who is unable to resist. Something about her being Parshendi: I don't think a human could be forced into a bond that way.) While I think I understand most of this fairly well, I don't know if others will. I'd also like some feedback, to tell me if I've made any obvious mistakes. Humans The primary effect for a human host is gainting magical power, including the ability to consume and use stormlight, as well as additional abilities depending on the specific bond. To the spren, the benefit is even more important: sentience. It is important to note that Spren who normally participate in Nahel bonds, are sentient in their own right while in the cognitive realm; once crossing over into the physical realm, they quickly begin to deteriorate. The bond stops that deterioration, allowing them to function as they normally would. Additionally, the presence of a spren on the physical realm allows them much greater freedom and greater ability to influence world events. Parshendi are Different. The minds of Parshmen are much closer to the cognitive realm then those of humans are, and as a result, parshmen face a deterioration of intelligence and identity similar to what spren experience. Though the effect is to a slightly-lesser-extent, the results is roughly the same: parshmen do not think if they can avoid doing so—it's just too difficult, and too unpleasant. (Words of Radiance; page numbers later) Because of this malady, universal to the parshman and parshendi race, the Nahel bond takes a largely different form: Rather than the spren having their mind drawn further into the physical realm, and allowed to dwell there safely, the parshendi mind is drawn further into the cognitive realm, thereby allowing them to escape the mental inhibition they and the spren both normally experience when on the physical realm. (consider this section well founded speculation) Sadly, when bound to a parshendi, the spren is not granted an independence cognitive presence on physical realm, as they would be with a human host. Instead, the spren is allowed a presence within the mind of the parshendi, granting them a VERY strong influence on the thoughts, emotions, outlook, and actions of the host in question. (This does vary. Think of the mental impact granted throught the WORK, MATE, and STORM forms. they are all very different in degree and nature.) While it might be argued that the amount of influence this allows the spren on the physical realm is more or less than that which they would receive from a human host, the nature of the influence clearly appeals to some spren more than others. (Honorspren might be adverse to mind-control) Additionally, it should be mentioned that the Parshendi are capable of bonding with nonsentient/marginally sentient spren already found on the physical realm. Most common 'forms' used by parshendi are, in fact, of this type. (A great deal of speculation could also be attached to this one detail.) ---- Beyond this I have three connected questions I am not certain about, and likely should take to Brandon at the next open Q&A. 1. If a parshman bonded to an Honorspren (, Cryptic, etc) would they gain the same surgebinding abilities as a human? Would a Human gain the same abilities as parshmen do if he were to bind to a Stormspren? 2. Parshendi change their physical shape when they take on new Nahel bonds. Is this a trait of the Parshman race, or a result of the type of spren they are bonding? 3. Parshendi are able to exchange the bond they have with one spren for a bond with other spren of their choice. Is it possible for humans to do the same? Would the spren be harmfully effected by this kind of activity? ---- Any ideas on these 3 are appreciated as well.

I beleive it is called the Nahel Bond. This is the "spren-bond" that grants humans and parshendi access to surgebinding and voidbinding. It would probably be appropriate in reference to the "Cultivation binding", if such a thing exists. I don't know if that's what you were looking for.

I'm not convinced that Honor ever was splintered. Clearly he died, but with everything said by and about The Stormfather in WoR, I think there's a strong possability that the shard itself is still intact. My Theory is still a fledgeling one, but ... spren are "powers made sentient"; the Stormfather claims to be both a spren and a god. He also claims to be a "Sliver", and I only recal one other instance of that claim (Mistborn: Lord Ruler). ----------- also: My thought on this is that the Oathpact a cause-effect agreement that Honor presented to the Heralds, and that they accepted. The heralds promises X, Y, and Z, and Q, R, and S happen as a result. The heralds may have broken their end of the bargan, but the agreement itself still exists. Because of that, if any of the Heralds were to once again begin fulfillng the responsabilities they agreed to, the benefits would return as well. Beyond that, because the Heralds agreed in the first place, They are likely to experience several things that push them towards the fulfillng of their Oaths. Though I couldn't guess as to the specific consequences the Heralds will face, I'm comfortable in saying that life will probably get less and less comfortable for them until they start fulfilling their Oaths (particularly with the return of Odium--many of the promises they made are likely in regards to protecting the world from him)

I think you guys are missing an important detail. compounding can never create an infinite loop. certainly, it has the potential for appearingly unlimited power, but the fact is that the basic storage limitations of normal ferrochemy prevent an actual "infinite loop". when you burn a metalmind, you normally have to store excess power in a new metalmind. say, burn a metalmind with 1 charge and get 10 units of ferrochemic charge for the new metalmind. then you take off your second 10 unit metalmind and burn it for 100 charges. Certainly, that's a spectacular effect, but where are you going to store 1000 units of ferrochemic charge, once you compound the 3rd time? It's not like it compresses; you just get more. Large effect, yes, but after a certain point, you're going to be using the whole of Kredik Shaw to hold it all, and you can't exactly carry Kredik Shaw around with you.

my main question was if he could burn the metal just because it peirced his skin, rather than eating it. That question has been answered: he can (but it hurts--alot) I like your point on "spiritual pain", though. It wouldn't apply to his normal metalminds (which pierce his skin, but are not hemalurgic), but in the case of an actual hemalurgic spike, spiritual agony would likely be even more crippling than anything physical. I think I'll try and track down the quote, but I think Brandon also hinted at the effects of burning a hemelurgic spike for its hemelurgic effect --splicing the spiritweb of the donor into your own. He also said it would have "interesting effects", which I interpret to mean "not so pleasant" effects. Random mutations and the like. The idea makes me curious though. Maybe something like what Rashek did to turn all the Ferrochemists into Mistwraiths?

This was my immediate thought as well. as others have pointed out, it would require ALOT for the person to make it. I would list 3 things right off: 1. the spike used to steal their traits must be used in a semi-nonlethal way. All current examples have shown Hemelurgic donor's to die. This is partly because Ruin wanted them to die. Because of Brandon's statements about Hemelurgy being based primarily on intent, I would guess that for the donor to live, the person holding the spike must not be specifically be trying to kill them (either they want the donor to live, or they don't care.) 2. The Ferrochemist must know the correct thing to do in order to survive, and do it very quickly. 3. must have sufficient stores of BOTH Feruchemical gold and Feruchemical aluminum. (My guess is that this would require at least a years worth of Identity. I'm not really comfortable guessing at how much health.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ There's also the chance that the wound may heal entirely, but they never get their power back. just like if you lost an arm, it may heal over again, but you still don't have an arm.

didn't Marsh have 2 hemelurgic spikes made of Atium? Allomantic atium, and Feruchemical atium. (sadly, I don't think he got TLR's stored youth)

now I haven't read the entire thread, but I wanted to pose a possible explanation here: Marsh had 2 hemelurgic spikes, made of atium. (Allomantic atium and Feruchemical atium) *this would also give Marsh all of the Lord Ruler's stored youth.

Thankyou!!! (I need to edit a previous post because of this) EDIT: oh, no, I didn't think they were. just a side thought.

yes, and yes. but if you shave off or break off part of an existing metalmind both parts retain a (I assume proportional) fraction of the origional metalmind charge.

two points: 1. "Burning spikes is painful"--this implies you have a source stating that you can burn things you have not swallowed. (true/false) If so hemalurgy-allomancy compounding just got a lot easier. ( very exited: post link please ) 2. "Burning spikes is painful" -- Miles 'Thousand Lives' has suffered so much physical trauma that he no longer feels pain.

I'd like to know the answer to that myself. I personally think he has to swallow them to compound. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think basic Hemalurgy, used to steal Ferrochemy, can have that effect, if the spike is moved from person to person, after being initially charged. (you just need a non-lethal bind point, so that they survive spike-removal)

herrrmmm... well, I'm still quite new here, so I'm still unaware of your realmatics theories. I'm sure I'll have a lot of questions, so a link to this would be nice. Now, lets try to answer these questions one at a time None. This thread is founded on specualtion. we just want to know how it would work, if it is possible. This is an expansion on the idea that everything in cosmere exists in all 3 (physical, cognitive, spiritual) realms. Because we know that attaching an attribute to a metalmind does not change it physicaly, the effect (according to logic alone) would have to exist in either the cognitive or spiritual realm. Also, the difference isn't in addition to the attached attribute. The difference is the attached attribute. I assumed cognitive, because I was referencing Feruchemical copper, at the time, which is thematically cognitive. er? well... "the difference between an empty box, and a full box"... I guess that analogy works if each molecule of metal is a separate box... (bigger object =! bigger box. bigger object = more boxes) for simplicity's sake I'm mostly going to just leave this one alone. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- as to powering Ferrochemy with allomancy I think it would be really cool to see this, but I'm tryiing to stay hands-off on whether it's possible. (I think this is what Feruchemical nicrosil is for)

dj26792, I would like to thank you for making my exact points regarding types 4, 5 and 6. Everything you've said about those 3, I agree with. I would also like to thank you for reviewing the basic fundamentals of allomancy, ferrochemy and compounding, which we all already know, as well as repeating the following quote for the X time in this thread. I would NOT like to thank you for being excessively confrontational. If I have somehow offended you, I'm sorry. It was never my intent to do so. That said, no idea is worth very much if the man (or woman) who poses it is not willing to defend or explain it. I hoped that we could have a pleasant "well what if..." back and forth discussion, but few others seem to have attempted this. Disagreement is fine, but should there not be more questions, and fewer barbs?

If I've made some mistake, please let me know. I'm just expanding on previous statements.

First and foremost, Thankyou. I hate being wrong, and appreciate when others check me. I already knew this Now, as others have pointed out, this is more a case of failing to prove something true, rather than actually proving it impossible. I acknowledge the mistake. The way this is phrased, it does not contradict my theory at all --that's hilarious. (now, so that everyone doesn't think I'm full of ****, I have to explain myself again:) now, in this quote, I stated how the process of storing something , in a metalmind, changes its cognative (and probably spiritual) properties. Granted, I was wrong about the point of storeing only one sense in a tinmind. ~sortof~ I would pose that as the properties of the metal are changed, only the properties of a certain part of the metal are changed, and then as more is invested into the metalmind more of the object becomes altered. the alternative would be the entire object being altered, and the change becoming more severe as more is stored. Given Brandon's own statement, it sounds like the first of these two is correct. As to more than one person storing traits in a single metalmind, brandon said "the charges are just stored in separate pieces of the metal", which could be interpreted as a statement that two people storing, say weight, in a single metalmind is the same as though they had started with two metalminds, and then welded the two objects together. not sure if I phrased that very well. does it make sense? in the same way, it would mean that if a tin-ferring wanted to store sight in his tin ear-ring, and then stored touch or hearing in that same ring, it's not so much that he's storing two traits in his metalmind, as he has now split the ring to function as two smaller metalminds. (Semantics. I know; largely, just semantics) *of course, if I'm right here, it means that draining a metalmind returns it to its origional state (making it usable again, by anyone, for any purpose) (which means I was wrong about other things).

just 2 cents, without reading the full thread: since ferrochemy is end-neutral, wouldn't it automatically reverse any permenent changes it made? I mean, isn't that why hemalurgic constructs work? because you're making "permenent" additions AND subtractions to the spiritweb? ferrochemy, by its nature seems contrary to that. I may be wrong though. (new hemelurgic constructs, based on adding ferrochemic abilities/effects is another question, of course.)

It appears I have been bombarded with a variety of evidences that I am wrong. In response to a few of your statements, I appologise for claiming I knew more than I actually did. Would you provide a link to where he said this? Thankyou. probably the strongest point made on the entire thread (up to this point). I think I may have fallen into the mistake of thinking the two were the same in this case. Which portion of my post are you referring to here?

Sadly, I have to admit that the statement of what recallers do is speculative. That's part of why I put it in small print. It seems clear to me, by the name itself, as well as the nature of compounding, that they would Probably be able to recall the same information from their copperminds multiple times, but since a copper compounder has never been specifically featured (or, to the best of my knowledge, even asked about) we're largely guessing as to what they can do. As to my sources on everything else, I lean largely on things directly (and indirectly) stated or described in the first mistborn trilogy. It is suprising to me, how much is overlooked in that. much of this discussion was given, or at least hinted, in books 1 and 3.

You mean Marsh? (he specializes in bronze) Marsh, being good friends with Harmony, could possibly become a worldhopper. ~just rampant speculation here~ but I would REALLY like to see that happen.

I think you've come upon a very important point here. If he could store his gold-shadows, it would make sense for him to draw them out again later. But he can't store his gold-shadows for later. Serendipity gave a very good description of why: Now you might say that a ferring should be able to "store" any attribute associated with the metal he uses, But that really isn't what ferrings do. Whenever Sazed created a new metalmind, he did just that: he created a metalmind. It describes specifically (when Sazed is researching the hero of ages, with Tindwyl) that when he first stores memories in his copper ring he Transforms it into a metalmind. even though the physical properties of the ring may not have changed, the cognitive and spiritual properties have changed. technically, the ring is no longer 'just copper', but rather is a new substance called a 'copper metalmind', or a 'coppermind', specufically attuned to Sazed. (If it did not work this way, there would be nothing stopping Ferrochemists from sharing their metalminds. it is the fact that the objects used have been spiritually and cognatively altered to recognize the Ferring or Ferrochemist which created them that creates this specificity. Likewise, this is why a single Tinmind can only store one sense, rather than multiple senses; it is only attuned to one, and even if it is emptied it will only be able to accept that one kind of sense again, to be stored later on.) Now. Twinborn. Compounding. Lets say a Copper-Copper twinborn (called a recaller), named Jasmine, created a metalmind from her copper earring, and begins to store her memories in it. As Jasmine stores more and more memories in the earring the cognitive properties of that ring change more and more (the same way the cognitive properties of a person change, as they learn, and gain experience). Because the ring has retained all of its physical properties, it can still be burned by an allomancer, filtering investature to create the normal effect of a smoker burning copper. Because the spiritual and cognitive properties are different, it can act as a different kind of filter for investature. (a recaller burning her metalminds can recall the entirety of the knowledge stored in his metalminds, by burning them, and can do so any number of times, until the metal is used up.) When a Ferring draws from their metalminds normally, they are in fact not drawing strength, memory, or breath: they are drawing investature, and using the metalmind as a filter for the correct type of effect. (This also explains a great deal about nicrosil, which stores untyped investature. It also raises questions about copper, gold and duralium. these questions are not terribly difficult to answer, mind you, but I'll wait for someone to ask before I set them to field)

I will begin by saying that I am less familiar with the books in question than I would like to be. The Philisophical question itself is however quite straightforward. Identity has to do with perception of reality. Normally, normal people do not consider their clothing to be a part of their "surroundings", or a part of "the environment" they are in. Thus it cannot be considered a part of the environment, when using magic. But do people consider their clothing to be a part of their self? Well, yes and no. Conciously no. Subconciously yes. For example, when someone is keeping a knife hidden one their person this generally does not indicate skin to skin contact with the weapon. More likely it indicates the kife is in their pocket, or up their sleeve--meaning that it's actually hidden in their clothes, rather than their body. This simple quirk of language demonstrates that people assume their clothing to be a part of them selves unconciously. once again: Identity reflects an intuitive understanding of yourself and others. It does not need to be 100% rational. Now lets take a look at your two examples: 1. Jasnah's combat-soulcasting. When she soulcasts the thugs, she wipes them out completely, clothes and all. She doesn't turn a man into a statue with clothes on it, but everything from hair to boots into crystal. Clearly, when Jasnah was considering the thugs, she saw them as a threat. she did not diferentiate between one and another, nor did she diferentiate between the people themselves and the weapons they were holding: it was all one thing to her. Because of this perception, the entire group can be said to have a single identity. When Jasnah soulcasts, she therefore must affect ALL of the thugs, AND their clothing and weapons. There is no barrier in her mind to separate one part of the group from another. This also explains why she did not have to crystalize them one at a time. If (now I'm revealing here I havn't yet read the book) Jasnah had been unable to see or been unaware of one of the thugs, that thug would have been excluded from the effect. or if one had been off to the side, and she wanted to take him as a prisoner, that one would no longer identify in her mind as a threat, but rather, he would identify to her (and her soulcasting) as though he already were a prisoner. 2. Lift's "Slick". This one is the one you say caught your attention. Lift, it seems, includes her clothing in the effect whenever she goes "Slick". I scoured the interlude to make sure that it wasn't just her bare skin, but at one point she slides full-body across the floor, so that suggests (unless she was secretly nude the whole scene) that her clothing is included. I agree. If this kind of effect were dependent on direct physics it would never work. Saddly, my answer, is very anticlimactic. Just as I said above, most people (including Lift) will assume that their clothes are irremovably attached to their being--unless they are specifically thinking of taking them off. The exception to this, I beleive is with very uncomfortable clothes, alien fashions and weather-atire. When you wear a heavy coat in a snowstorm, you don't think of the coat as part of yourself; you think of it a a barrier and protection against the snow. In this case Lift would likely be unable to "Slick" effectively because she would think of the clothing as a forein entity, with an identity separate from his own. If, on the other hand, she were attacked by a polar bear, she would be much less likely to perceive her clothing at all thus allowing her to (possibly) return to the above assumption where clothes are attached and irremovable.