eveorjoy

Sanderson has said that he has no problem killing off a character and then having their flashback sequence in a later book.

It is clear by the text, Amaram doesn't like what he is doing and sees no other way. He is wrong, but his mistake is human. I don't think he is an anti-hero, but WOR could change things. Currently, I think he is shaping up to be a sympathetic villain. I wonder if Brandon is going to give us any villains we love to hate. Edit: Sorry for the double post. It won't happen again.

The distinction lies in intent. As I see it, killing is only murder if the victim is innocent and the action was deliberate. But considering you hate war, you might see all killing as murder. As for your question, I'm not sure the two scenarios are comparable. In scenario one someone accidentally saves a lot of people while trying to kill someone. That doesn't make him a hero or any less of a murderer. In scenario two, someone accidentally killed a lot of people while trying to save someone. Well, he didn't intend to kill anyone so he isn't a murderer. He isn't really a hero either, because I assume the person he tried to save also died. Which would I prefer? Neither. But alternatives exist in the text. Kaladin said he would have given the shards to Amaram and we know he was telling the truth. If Amaram really had no other choices, and the only way to save Roshar from the everstorm was for Amaram to have those specific shards, then yes maybe I could consider it justified. I think even Kaladin would agree to that. However, that is not the case. Amaram is not the savior of Roshar. There are other ways he could have gotten a set of shards and there are other ways he could have legally gotten Kaladin's specific shards. These facts are supported by the text. When I say there is no way Amaram can justify what he did I say that because of what is in the text. If you want to make up a situation not supported by the text that justifies Amaram then of course you can justify Amaram.

I'm not sure Taravangian wouldn't go to war, if he had the armies. I'm not sure he would either. Our impression that Taravangian is a man of peace comes from Shallan's POV. She also thought he was a little dumb, so we know now that she didn't know him at all. We don't know this man. However, I get the impression that if he had access to an army and felt war was necessary he'd do it. I'm not saying this as a condemnation, just a simple fact. Someone who will kidnap people and kill them for what he believes is the greater good is capable of anything. Also Dalinar isn't the same man who drank himself into stupor the night his brother died. He is changing and he regrets many that he has killed. That doesn't excuse him, but he is trying to change. Before he considered uniting the highprinces to end the war, he suggested ending the war to Elhokar. That went over like a lead balloon, but he did suggest it. I think that if Eshonai could speak with Dalinar and sue for peace, Dalinar would consider it. if the Alethi would agree to it is another matter. If Dalinar survives WOR I doubt he will still be a highprince of Alethikar. Of course this is just me speculating. We will just have to see. It's not the number of people being killed that matters, its the fact that they are selected as sacrifices just because they are deemed unimportant. I'm referring more to those that are kidnapped than those who are all ready dying. Taravangian crossed a line when he began murdering healthy people because no one would miss them. If it can be justified Brandon is going to have a hard time doing so. Taravangian is shaping up to be a very human and very sympathetic villain, but a villain none the less. Though even in saying that I agree we don't know everything about this man yet. Taravangian's reasons are more noble than Sadeas, but the lack of respect for the lives of the lowest members society is the same. The scary thing about a pandemic is we can't be sure when one will strike, though scientists say we are overdue for one. I'm not so sure the 1000 days means exactly a 1000 days. If it did we would be given the start date and informed how much time there was left. Maybe we will be given this information in WOR. Regardless, killing people to hear their death ramblings won't necessarily save everyone either. Hopefully, Taravangian is doing more than having people killed, by his staff or by Szeth. We will have to see. I don't like Mao, but there are people who admire his political philosophies and consider him a genius. Mao's philosophies are debated in colleges. He dropped the ball in this case, which is why I don't think being a genius means you will be a great ruler. Of course, I tend to agree with the idea that all power needs checks and balances. My point in bringing Mao up was that some think Taravangain will be the best ruler of Roshar because he is so smart every now and then. Mao shows that even smart people can be awful leaders. Maybe Taravangian would be a good leader for Roshar, but nothing in the text supports this. Yes, mathematically we can figure out how much people need to survive, though people sometimes to defy the math and die sooner or later than excepted. I'd keep discussing this point, but I fear we you get into territory that has nothing to do with Taravangian in the text. I prefer Dalinar as a leader to Taravangian because at least I would know where I would stand with him. Considering how Dalinar is beginning to be disgusted by killing on the battlefield, he may not be a warlord much longer. I think Dalinar is doing what he is doing because he is still trying to work with the highprinces. Will this work? I guess we will have to see, but it is quite possible Dalinar maybe a man of peace by the end of WOR. Most likely not however, because Honor is asking him to return a group of warrior knights, which Sanderson has said is the point of the Stormlight Archive. So if you hate war, what do think of the Knight's Radiant? Finally, don't assume Taravangian wouldn't go to war. We have no way of knowing whether or not he would. And even if he wouldn't, his peace will not be bloodless.

You're assuming that Amaram really has used those shard selflessly. I'll admit he may not have been selfish, and maybe arrogant is better word. Still we really don't know what he has been doing with those shards. Maybe he did want them for glory and justified it with pragmatic reasoning. Or maybe he is killing Odium with those shards like you said. We really don't know. March 4th can't come soon enough. Yes I've heard that one. Did you ever here about the expanded version of it. There is a link to a video about it. But in a nutshell, those that can kill easily with their bare hands for the greater good are psychopaths. There are situations where you have to kill. I think were our confusion is the definition of murder. If you take a life on the field of battle under a commander's direction, that is not murder. If you kill someone that is trying to kill you, that is not murder. If you kill someone who is trying to kill someone else, that is not murder. If you kill someone accidentally through your actions, that is not murder. If someone dies because you did not save them, even if you could have saved them, that is still not murder, (I think the trolley switch example falls under this. Your choice really is save five or save one. You aren't holding the lone man on the track nor did you put him there.) No, it is only murder if you tell someone to kill someone, or you kill them yourself, and they weren't trying to kill you or anyone else. I can't think of an example of where my definition of murder is justified. Interesting, slaying hate (Odium) by nurturing hate in Kaladin. I'm not sure if that would work. Even still, that would not justify it because there are better ways to get shards and there are better ways he could have gotten those shards. Someone else on the site said he could have had Kaladin announce to everyone he was giving the shards to Amaram and even had an official ceremony to legalize it. If Dalinar cannot demand his shardblade back after a fair trade, then Kaladin could have been given something in trade and then the shards would have legally been Amaram's, So Amaram could restore Honor to life the with blade and it still would not justify the theft, enslavement, and murder he did to get those shards. I agree, Amaram may still be redeemed, but he has a lot to account for. Have you read about the post on Reddit where Amaram calls Dalinar his friend and advises him what to do about Sadeas? This thread talks about it. After reading the opening to Steelheart, and the crem Brandon had already put Kaladin through, oh yes he could be that brilliantly cruel.

I'm not so sure Taravangian would have realized the message was a recording and not a two way conversation. Maybe he would have realized, but there is no evidence in the visions that suggests the speaker is not aware of the person who is seeing the vision, especially because they are so interactive. Regardless, high intelligence isn't the only requirement for rule. Ethics and morality are also very important. So murder makes one a good ruler? Then Hitler was great ruler. And I don't say that for shock value. Time magazine in 1938 made him man of the year because of all the good they believed he did. Hitler was trying to make the world a better place by making sure resources were used for the best of humanity and not wasted. And Hitler was very intelligent, maybe not as intelligent as Taravangian on his good days, but he was smart. To be clear, I'm not saying Taravangian would kill off a race of people in concentration camps. I really don't know enough about him to make that judgement. But he is murdering some he deems acceptable losses to save others. And he isn't just killing off the terminally ill. If it were just the terminally ill I might not be as bothered. They were going to die anyway and it could be argued that it was a mercy killing. He is also kidnapping the homeless and poor because sometimes there aren't enough terminally ill people. So being down on your luck in Kharbarnth could be deadly. Is the murder of a homeless person of less importance than the murder of a merchant or a king? The choice to gather and then murder the lowest people in Kharbarnth is an act similar to sending slaves to run bridges without armor. Taravangian's methods are no worse or better than Sadeas's. You don't know if there aren't enough nurses. Nothing in the book suggest the hospitals are understaffed. But let's assume you are correct. Hire some of those people off the street they going to kill and have them record the last words. Or have the ardents do it. Or have female scholars and scribes from all over the kingdom do it. Maybe have it be a way to earn free time in the Palanaeum. Maybe he couldn't find people, but nothing suggests that he even tried. And why didn't he? Because the dying ceased to be people to him. The messages he was getting from them he deemed more important than their comfort in the end. Was he completely wrong? No. However, because he is so intelligent, if he saw these people as his equals he would have found a way to do it. I'm not a genius and I already suggested several methods. Maybe none of them would work, but we have no way of knowing this by the current text. It's not people having to die that is the point. I agree sometimes there is no other choice and people do have to die. If you don't mind me quoting "Star Trek" the needs of the many do out way the needs of the few. But by your argument, however, human blood sacrifice is fine. So is experimenting on the healthy, as long as they don't contribute to society. Forget fantasy, we can apply this to real life. There are many illnesses we could find cures for if we stopped experimenting on healthy animals and instead used healthy humans. We can use criminals, the disabled, and the poor. A global pandemic, we are not prepared for, could wipe out the human race in way less than 1000 days. Your assuming murdering is the only option. Tanavast told Dalinar not only to "unite them" but also that the Knights Radiant need to stand again. Taravangain isn't gathering surgebinders, other than Szeth and his reason for seeking him out wasn't to make him a Radiant. In fact he maybe killing surgebinders in those rooms for all we know. Then again maybe he is gathering surgebinders and testing people as surgebinders before he bloods them. We really don't know. We can only go by what is in the text. But lets say there really was no other way. People had to be killed to learn the information that would save Roshar. Okay, ask for volunteers. Say you will provide for their families, or give them something in exchange for their lives. Many sacrifices on blood alters through out history went willingly. Maybe go to old and explain the situation. The old of Kharbarnth maybe willing to die a few years early for their children's sake. However, Tavangain may think it is the only way, but we as readers know it isn't. Dalinar is learning as much if not more from his visions, and he is able to remain alive to get them. This actually happened in China under Mao Zedong. Millions died while the state was figuring out how to deal with the natural disasters. Food was available, but because it was deemed more important for the state to keep it for the good of all, people died at the doors of full grain warehouses. If everyone will truly starve by spreading the food around, then yes some will need to die to save the rest. But even the most intelligent human is not going to know at what point you can't feed everyone. I agree with giving Tavaganian the benefit of the doubt since we know so little, but people want to make him a hero when we have no evidence of his heroism.

True, but it all depends on several factors. I agree that Dalinar could demand from Kaladin an explanation for his issues with Amaram. Now if Kaladin has grown to trust Dalinar as much as he trusts Teft or Rock, I could see him telling the whole story to Dalinar. If Kaladin only trusts Dalinar as much as he did at the end of WOK, I wouldn't expect him to say more than, "Amaram made me a slave claiming I was a deserter. I'm not, but I have no proof." Why would he only say that, because he can't prove anything else and if Dalinar goes searching for the truth, as far as Kaladin knows, the only story Dalinar will hear will be the official one. Accusing someone of high rank of such an awful crime with no proof could cause problems for Kaladin. As it is now, I doubt Kaladin thinks anyone, even Bridge Four, would believe him. Now Dalinar could react to Kaladin telling the official story two ways. He could accept it and ask Kaladin to have other men guard him when Amaram visits. Or he could ask for a full explanation. I don't believe Kaladin would lie and yes I do think Dalinar would believe him. In fact, I would love to read such a scene, because I think it would go a long way in healing Kaladin's trauma. However, I don't think my dream scene is inevitable and it is likely Dalinar won't ask unless Kaladin acts really upset around Amaram. Kaladin was just as angry at Sadeas and he was able to bow politely to him as needed. I also don't think Kaladin would just tell Dalinar, unless he felt he couldn't keep his cool or that Amaram was some greater danger to Dalinar than any other lighteyed leader in the camp.

By that logic it isn't selfish for me to eat all the cookies in the cookie jar because I thought it over for a long time, felt bad about doing it and was talked into it by a friend. Actually, we really don't know what he has been doing with the shards. Amaram was famous before he stole the shards and we are only getting Kaladin's POV. I'm not saying he is selfish. We have no proof of that one way or the other. He is a criminal however. Murdering others for gain is never the right thing. I can understand the pragmatic justifications he used for killing his loyal men who hours before saved his life, but I don't agree with them. No he isn't completely evil, but he is at the least criminal. Criminals can be redeemed, but being a murderer is almost an irredeemable act. Hmm, then Hitler was right. His argument for killing people in the concentration camps was that they were wasting money through various means. I never knew Hitler was such a hero. Seriously though, killing someone and then giving all of their money to the poor is wrong. What gives anyone the right to do that? Which is the reason there will never be any justification for what he did. There were other options. He just felt he was of more worth than Kaladin and his men, and therefore took what he wanted. Maybe not selfish, but at least arrogant and classist. I'm sure he thought he had a good reason and I agree that the Amaram hate is to overt without more information. Still, no matter what good he does with those shards, all of it will be stained with the blood of those whose lives were stolen from them. I think the shards are corrupted anyway, but that is a discussion for another thread. Yes, but what if the first time Kaladin sees Amaram is when Amaram is being all buddy buddy with Dalinar? Kaladin is only beginning to trust Dalinar and he still has a general mistrust for people in power. Kaladin also has no proof that Amaram stole his shards and murdered Kaladin's men. He might say he isn't comfortable around Amaram, but I doubt he would say much more. What good would it do to appear to be making up a vicious lie about the man who made you a slave?

What is with all the Dalinar hate? Anyway, I don't think any of the four mentioned, including Dalinar, are likely to save or destroy Roshar at this point. We have only read book one of five from one arc, that will eventually be two arcs with ten books total. The only character who I doubt will be the destroy Roshar is Kaladin, because of his internal questions on WOK and also from what I samples I have read of him in WOR. He would need to go through changes that would completely destroy his character journey in WOK for him to become the one who will destroy. Dalinar could be the destroyer, but not because he is stupid. He trusted Sadeas because he misunderstood the visions, and didn't you as well the first time you read them. Dalinar's mistake is completely understandable. And for all we know Taravangian maybe making a similar mistake as well. Being a genius does not make incapable of making mistakes, in fact it often makes you able to make even bigger ones. I don't think Taravangian is completely evil. However, he's not the hero of Roshar either. Anyone who will kill the innocent for the greater good should not be in power. Some will say, but killing people is the only way he can learn what he needs to save Roshar. Baloney. He could leave the dying in their own rooms and get about as much information. Much of the time the samples are worthless. It's easy to say that there was nothing else he could do when you aren't the one being killed for the greater good. Yes he knows he is doing wrong for the greater good. That doesn't make it right. What if he saves the world, but then there is a shortage of food and too many survivors? What if he decides he must kill twenty thousand so the rest can eat? He would do it. It would be no different that taking people off the streets and opening their veins until they die, just so you might get a few sentences of confused prophecy. I think Taravangan isn't a good ruler. He has kept Kharbranth free, but it is not peaceful. You think Jasnah would have needed to be play vigilanty if the city of bells was peaceful? He decided he needed to be hero of the world and so went to the Nightwatcher which resulted in him being an idiot half of the time. Whoever is running Kharbranth when he is incapable, isn't doing a very good job. I honestly think he would let Kharbranth burn if he felt it was for the greater good. Still, I agree that we need to see more on him before passing final judgement. But killing people just because you think their life is worthless is hard to place in a good light. Their life was not worthless to them and no person has the right to judge whose life is worthless, I don't care how smart they are. Leading people who choose to fight and die, even to a foolish death, is better than killing people against their will. Yes, Dalinar made a big mistake, but everyone one of his men chose to be there knowing the risks. They didn't curse Dalinar for his mistake and when Dalinar went missing they stayed until his fate was known. Where as those being killed for the greater good by Taravangian. I think On my second read through this was the quote that struck me the hardest. I think I would do what the Shin sailor did as I died, if I realized they were doing this to me. How could you want a person who kills people like this in power? That's an awful leader. Ultimately, even if Dalinar is the one who will destroy Roshar, killing him won't save Roshar. I don't see how it could.

Perhaps, but at least it is caused by experience and not ignorance which is the root of most racism. I think as Kaladin is exposed to men like Dalinar more, his opinion will change.

Kaladin could go down that path, but I don't think he will. At the end of the battle of the Tower, most of the dark-eyed soldiers were across the bridge when he chose to still try to save Adolin and Dalinar. He doesn't like lighteyed people, but he will still save them. Also Adolin was a bit rude to Kaladin when he tossed Kaladin the sphere, assuming Kaladin would just jump because a sphere was tossed his way. Kaladin taking the sphere wasn't honorable either, but I can understand why he acted as he did. Kaladin is very damaged and has a lot to work through, which is why I doubt he would tell Dalinar what happened with Amaram, at least not in WOR.

I don't disagree with your assessment of Kaladin's biased opinion of lighteyes, though I do find it interesting referring to the oppressed as racist. It would be like calling Jews who lived the holocaust racist against Germans, but I digress. Amaram is going to get buddy buddy was Dalinar in the next book or at least try to. This thread has a spoiler that talks about it. Besides that, Kaladin has no proof that Amaram stole the shards. Why would he tell Dalinar? And aside from telling Dalinar, what do you think he will do?

There is a big difference between letting people die.and having them assassinated. I think Amaram is as evil as Taravangian, which isn't completely evil. It's understandable but it is still theft and murder for the greater good. Does it really remain the greater good when so much evil is done to get there? Now, I'm not saying Amaram is as evil as Sadeas, but there is no way to justify his actions.

Just a little over two months. Patience.

@Moash-- You make a very good point about the Lift interlude. I'm hoping Dalinar doesn't die. Not because I can't stand lose my favorite characters. I have no issues with character deaths as long as it serves the best interests of the overall story. I don't want Dalinar to die in WOR because he is the one the fans assume will kick it. His death wouldn't be shocking enough. Also, if Dalinar does die, I hope Sanderson has his replacement to lead the Knights Radient set up. Maybe Navani, Jasnah, or Kaladin, but a lot would need to happen for that to work. So if Dalinar died it wouldn't be a surprise and that alone would be kind of sad.

I think Amaram got those shards for more than fight Parchendi (at least I hope he did or he really is just a greedy jerk). He's most likely been about other work before joining his highprince.

It easy to accept the death of some for the greater good, until you are one being sacrificed. I don't think Kaladin giving the Shards to Amaram would have caused the chaos and rebellion you suggest. Amaram isn't pure evil. He's reasons are all too human and understandable, but so are the actions of many criminals There is no way to justify it. However, I think he will get away with it because there is no way to prove it either. Even if Dalinar learns the truth, most likely there is nothing he can do to help. That is the difference between leading men in a good cause and murder.

Could be, I doubt they were his only dreams.

He might die, but I have my doubts. Many readers expect him to die and Sanderson tries to write a story you aren't expecting. But we shall see.

Protecting does always mean physical protection. It could mean protection from what killing people could do to them. Or protection from desire of hate or vengeance. It could be protection in a spiritual or mental sense. It could be all the people of Roshar as well, but it could also be the KR. They are capable but not invulnerable.

From Dalinar's last chapter, I understood "Unite them" to mean the KR. Tanavast does at least does say clearly that the KR needs to stand again.

I think Dalinar only allowed Sadeas to continue attacking the way he did because he was trying to influence him through example. He was aware that he was bending the codes letting Sadeas clear the plateau for him. But it was either allow Sadeas to attack his way and work with him, or not at all. Page 894 In the end, Dalinar should never have worked with Sadeas and even he realized that. I have feeling that when he is High Prince of War no one in the camps will be forced to run bridges. Page 961 Do I think Dalinar will be perfect in following the codes in the future? No, but I don't think he would ever force anyone to do anything he would not do himself. If Amaram wanted the shards, he should have earned them or asked for them. However, I agree that Kaladin most likely will not try to get the shards back or tell anyone what Amaram did, except maybe Teft or Rock. And even if he did tell Dalinar, I doubt there is anything he could do to bring Amaram to justice. Also I agree that Amaram being buddies with Dalinar will make it even less likely that Kaladin will tell him about Amaram.

If Roshar was that fair, Tien would still be alive. The truth is even if Dalinar learns what happen to Kaladin, Amaram will most likely keep the shards, because there is no legal proof of his crimes. If Amaram is going to get his comeuppance it will need to be some other way.

Actually, I'm not sure the truth will ever come out. It's possible Kaladin will seethe inwardly about Amaram and never tell anyone why through all of book 2. I think Dalinar is likely to find out eventually. Kaladin might mention it to some members of Bridge Four, Teft or Rock. Still, he might not tell anyone in WOR and Amaram most likely will not mention it either.

Actually, we don't know. Maybe he did or will.But every good act he does will be stained with the blood of the innocent. Sometimes you do need to let some die so that others may live, but you had better be justified in that choice. I don't hate Amaram, but I understand why Kaladin does. i bet he will need to overcome that hate or Odium may find a place in his heart.