Darkness

I feel like this little thing gets ignored every time this discussion comes up: The Knights killed their spren. True. They left them behind in the ground. Stuck in Shardblade form. True. Radiantspren only take Shardblade form when their knights need them that way. Probably yes. Spren choose to participate in the bond. I would suggest that spren choose what form they want to take, from a pile of leaves, to a young girl, to a cabbage sprouting tentacles. Here's my point: The spren chose to stay in Shardblade form while the Radiant 'put them down'. All of them. This strongly suggests to me that the spren knew what was coming and agreed with it. All of them. They knew what it would mean, and chose to accept it. To me, that means it was absolutely necessary. I don't know why, but I do think the spren were supportive of the purpose behind the Recreance, as were the Knights involved. Otherwise we'd see spren turning into leaves or young people and flitting off, or dying in forms other than Shardblades as the bond was broken.

Heralds can't Surgebind without their Honorblades. They do have other abilities though (i.e. super-reflexes). Personally I like the theory that there are two levels of bonding to an Honorblades, a prime bond to the Herald, and (a) secondary bond(s) to mortals. I'm just throwing this out there, but it's entirely possible that the Honorblades bind the Heralds, rather than the other way around. Taln's eye colour might not change because the Blade could actually be summoning him in a way, which could also explain why his muscles are wet; he came from the same place as dead Shardblades (note that Syl and Pattern don't appear wet when summoned into Shardblade form). Theory: Dead Shardblades come from the same dead place Kelsier hung out in Mistborn after he died. Kelsier was able to stick around because he had a reason to, and because he had a tie to the physical realm. He was able to reach back into the realms to talk to Scoot because he held part of Preservations power for a time (investiture). Dead radiantspren are able to stick around because they still have their husks, Shardblades, tying them to the Physical realm. Note that 10 heartbeats is the time necessary to 'revive' a dead Shardblade. I propose that means drawing them into the Physical from 'behind' the 3 realms (but not 'beyond' as in 'God beyond'... that refers to the place after moving on from being dead, like Tindwyl). Another similarity is that Shardblades require investiture (the gemstone fabrial) to move between the space 'behind' and the Physical realm, using that physical connection they have. Similarly, I propose that when Heralds die, they go to that limbo space 'behind' the 3 realms until their physical connection (Honorblade) allows them to be pulled them back. I don't know if dead radiantspren choose to come back every time, or if they are just summoned, but I'd think that Radiants choose to come back once the torture is too much, and they use the tie to their Honorblades (which are tied to Honor --> Roshar) to do it. I don't think power is expended to do it, but I do think enough investiture needs to be present (gemstone fabrial, Preservation, Honorblade). Long story short, I think Taln came from limbo, same as dead Shardblades do, and not through Shadesmar, like what Jasnah does. I don't think there is water in limbo, but rather that - as a function of energy conservation - moving matter/energy/investiture into the Physical realm requires that energy/matter also moves into the limbo space. Hence, when Taln/Shardblades/Stormlight is brought into/actualized in the Physical realm, thermal energy leaves, causing water vapour to condense around the summoned object/source of investiture. That theory just kind of spewed forth, sorry about any unclarity. I've been thinking about it for awhile, but never tried actually formulating it.

I thought the gates were 'locked' because there suddenly weren't any living blades about, and the lock won't turn if the Shardblade is dead, but I quite like the other ideas in this thread too.

Kurkistan: Could an Augor Compound Health out of a goldmind if its proper owner messed with Identity in the right way? Brandon: This is possible. So beyond a smile at a twitter post, this is the only direct confirmation we have of the entire 'identity' based compounding theory. FWIW I definitely agree with the theory, as far as I understand it. Basically, either the person who initially stores the Feruchemical charge has to 'depersonalize' their metal mind by riding themselves of identity (or alternatively re-personalize it by manufacturing a fake identity corresponding to someone else... I think that would be as difficult as Soulstamping a person), or the person using the Feruchemically charged metal has to reduce their identity to the point that no spirit web inhibition comes into play when they try to access or compound the metal. The identity hijacking/unlocking mechanisms can carry over into other magic systems. Is that a decent summary? I picture it kind of like that Japanese game show of human tetris (the one where people try to fit through the moving wall). The Feruchemical charge acts like the moving wall. The allomantic power is the shape of the person. The person (when activated) sees the shape of the wall and tries to fit through it perfectly, and at the moment they pass through they are in a different position. Removing the person's 'identity' is like reducing his size and shape to a 1D point, then fitting him through the wall. He'll get through because no part of him blocks the passing. Removing the wall's 'identity' is like bashing a hole big enough for anyone to fit through it. It's a very David-like metaphor because obviously the allomantic power changes into a recognizable Feruchemical conformation during compounding. I actually see this whole thing more as a caveat and perversion/hijacking of the system than a fundamental rule. It's a way to get access that is separate from the basic set of rules guiding the system. I think my original theory still works. This just manipulates the system in interesting ways. So a non-Feruchemist can access an 'unlocked' metal mind, and any identity storer should be able to access any metal mind (or get anyone else to). An allomancer with no identity would be able to burn a Feruchemically charged metal mind and get the burst of enhanced Feruchemical power from it. I don't quite see how a non-Feruchemist (even someone with 0 identity) could re-store the Feruchemical charge from the energy burst, but that's a small thing. Thanks for the reading btw! I didn't think my theory on Allomancy and the Mists would expand into Surgebinding, Stormlight, and Feruchemy so quickly and... naturally. But I really do think the basic functionings of the systems are similar to what I'm trying to describe (and very much in line with what you are describing too, I think).

BAM! WoB FTW!

Me neither. I view the whole thing as a continuous circle, without 'first' or 'second' surges. I was just exploring the OP's idea a bit

Unfortunately, the first WoB on Compounding is paraphrased. But the following ones are apparently complete. I shamelessly cut parts that didn't talk about compounding... So basically you burn a Feruchemically-charged allomantic metal to double-filter the power. It seems like the metal shapes the allomantic 'beat' of the power (which we should be familiar with), and the Feruchemical charge re-shapes the allomantic beat into a super-burst of the corresponding Feruchemical power, which can then be stored in a metal mind (IF the orginal metal was charged by the same person as is burning it). In the last WoB, it sounds like when you burn a charged metal mind the power that is coming through the allomantic filter actively recognizes the 'beat' of the Feruchemical reserve, and then changes itself to match. Regardless of the specifics, you fuel compounding by being able to allomantically burn whatever metal is Feruchemically charged. There are 2 restrictions: 1. You have to have been the original one to charge the metal you are now burning - probably because each person's spirit web has a slightly different 'beat' when storing Feruchemical power and if the incoming power takes up somebody else's 'beat', then you wouldn't be able to manipulate and store it. 2. Obviously, you have to be a Feruchemist. First to charge the metal in the first place, and second to charge the power you get out of compounding into another metal mind. So to answer your implied question, compounding doesn't work for non-Feruchemists. As per WoB, unless you yourself stored the initial charge that you are burning, compounding won't work and the metal mind will just burn allomantically, and the Feruchemical charge will be lost.I don't know where you got your idea that non-Feruchemists can burn 'unlocked' metal minds, I don't recall that, or even the term 'unlocked' metal minds. If it's canonized in something I haven't seen, I would sincerely love to read the WoB on it! Thank you for your original thoughts too! This is a fascinating subject for me! So much so that I should have been in bed 2 hours ago Edit for late night spelling mistakes

"First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation’s did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it’s this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation’s power. It’s like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power. The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. Alloy's Ars Arcanum: Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source. The body then filters it into various forms. (The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb.) The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running. In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive." Edit:

Well, we do know that Shadesmar was mainly the domain of the Elsecallers... but that might have to do with their associations with the ruling spren there, or any number of other things. I guess you could say it's due to their main surge being transformation. But then, doesn't transportation also use Shadesmar?

Interesting to think about for sure. I'm pretty sure I agree with you. Although I think that 'ruinspren' would be the equivalent manifestation of Ruin's investiture on Roshar to atium on Scadrial. Sure allomancy is 'Preservation's system', but spren are more or less Splinters; pieces of a God, which is the same as atium. Though... I could be wrong. After all, I don't see any sentient pieces of atium lying around

Oh indubitably! Personalities and personal convictions, mixed with having fractures in your soul, seem to be the qualifying factors for Surgebinders in general. In the beginning, the spren probably bonded Surgebinders whose ideals matched well with the spren-type. After that the Heralds eventually chose to sponsor one group of proto-Heralds (I say proto to represent Surgebinders with a Nahel bond, but no specific Herald sponsor and therefore perhaps lesser organization/integration into the Knights Radiant as a whole). Once sponsorship was formalized, I would even go so far as to suggest the potential Knights' personalities might reflect the associated Herald's to a large degree. The largest indicator should (in my mind) remain how closely the Surgebinder's natural inclinations align with the spren-type's intent. The ideals would probably have come after as Radiants became more organized and likely serve to formalize the intent. However, if you mean "divine attributes" as essences/soulcasting properties, it gets fuzzy for me. Which is the 'first' surge if all orders only have 2 and both are shared with another order? Also, I don't see Jasnah as particularly 'oily', although she can be dark

When you get it, can you please post a link here to the corresponding script? That would be some incredible reading

Oh I think I get it. FYI Ruinspren would have to be snapped through strong emotion/feeling as well (it wasn't just beatings, HoA revealed that even pleasant, intense emotions could 'snap' an individual allomantically). The atium (Ruin-using) mistings were snapped by being exposed to the mists and almost dying. I'm fairly sure spren are a function of Roshar, but while there is a general WoB that says the planet itself is important to the workings of the magic system, there is no specific Roshar=spren, Scadrial=allomancy quote. Another question: Hemallurgy is cosmere-versal... but does it always involve metal spikes? I'm thinking maybe each world has a different way of cut/pasting spirit webs that relates to the local magic system... Edit to rephrase the latter part into an ask-able question.

1. Yes it was the same man. I honestly think it still is the herald Nin/Nalan/Darkness/whatever. What's the passage that says it isn't? 2. Pretty cool observance. I hadn't made it. Do you think it will end up being important? Also, it's interesting to note that the interlude with the healer (Ym?) showed his spren as being a fairly timid ball of light, I believe. 3. Sorry, what? Where is that?

Ummm... WoB says that Sazed will find it hard to act for awhile in full capacity because of the two conflicting intents inside of him.

That excerpt actually suggests that some of Dalinar's 'specialness' came into play before he was very close to Elhokar. "Dalinar charged toward the king, moving with a speed and grace no man— not even one wearing Shardplate— should be able to manage." One other thing... "He got close and swung at the beast’s torso, cutting free a piece of chitin—like a person’s hair or nails, it could be cut by a Blade." Who by-a-Horneater's-pointed-toes would try cutting their nails with a storming Shardblade?!

No judgements here I secretly wish that I could be Brandon's official proof-reader. Unfortunately, that would require so many things that I don't have. Like maybe an English degree. Or an American passport.

That's rather an odd thought... I guess a thousand Breaths isn't enough to make his Intent coincide with Endowment's. Although now that I think about it, 1,000 Breaths isn't actually a significant portion of Endowment. So I would guess a Ruinblade could be manufactured with the Ideal to "Block projectiles" or something not directly connected to Ruin. Of course, the more complex or abstract the ideal, the more investiture it would take. I wonder how you would feasibly invest a sword with investiture on Scadrial? Would you have to use atium? Could you use feruchemy to 'store' investiture in the blade? Maybe the black orb is stored, corrupted investiture? I dunno...

So... I'm getting the idea that Nightblood's 'sentience' is a function of the Breath he was imbued with, and that's similar to the sentience of some spren. More than an element-spren, maybe more than a first-oath honorspren, but probably not as much as a second-oath honorspren. In fact, it seems reasonable that 'destroy evil' is Nightblood's first, and only, ideal. So he is about as sentient as a radiantspren with one oath spoken. The thing about Nightblood is that he doesn't progress or regress. He's always at around the same level of sentience. I'm completely ignoring the black smoke because, although it's fascinating, it would take too long to express my thoughts on the matter. I can be rather verbose. (If I'm writing and not speaking, does that mean I'm lex-tose?) What I'm getting at is, maybe a radiantspren of the first level has about as much shard power (/innate investiture) as 1,000 Breaths. It's an approximation, but it could be a functional ratio. Now... how much stormlight to make a spren? haha

Yep. That's a bit of a hole in the theory. I personally maintain that the Recreance was agreed upon by the spren and was seen by both spren and men as necessary. Otherwise I don't get why the spren would obediently stay in Shardblade-form while their Radiants left them. I mean, the bond (or at least the glowiness) was still active right up until the Radiants walked away, so I wouldn't say the oaths were broken purposefully, and not by accidental fudging or disobeying of ideals.

Sure, but in my mind that's a special case (I can hear your inward groans... I know). Warbreaker was written at least partly for the purpose of introducing Nightblood. The Stormlight Archives were always meant to have him come in. I'm sure that his powers and ramifications will be adequately explained with respect to Roshar in the third book for readers that stick to the Stormlight Archives, whereas Kwaan's powers were decently well explored within the context of Scadrial.

Sorry... are you saying people would inhale/ingest spren, and then burn them to get the correct key pattern to access investiture? I'm not sure I understand... would the spren still have ideals? Would you be able to allomantically manipulate fire by 'burning' a flamespren? This is weird...

Is Returning a function of sDNA, or a peculiarity of Nalthis' afterlife? Because I could see Hoid's sDNA being compatible with all the Shards, since he was .

In that case, it would be better... though blasphemous... to stamp Words of Radiance. Or a bible (even bigger than WoR if you can imagine).

Other spren are not so discerning as Honorspren