Greywatch

I love Kaladin so much. I feel really protective of him, and it kills me how much of his behaviour is a huge defense mechanism. I identify with him a lot, so while there are some times I can recognize something as unhealthy or unhelpful, I've never been mad or annoyed at him. He's grown and healed a lot, and still trucking, so I don't feel like like's much else to add. Me as a spectator talking to my book never had any more wisdom than he or Syl already knew, so I've been very happy with his character and arc. I'm very proud of him, and I wish for his every happiness going forward.

I'm a huge shipper and that sort of talk bothers me immensely as well. I'm still going to push back when I see it, and I see jofwu as well earlier had a great post about it. This being so subjective, it doesn't feel like I'm grasping at anything, or that I was pushing more than the reality of the text allows. What I said was actually my own personal first impression on reading, and it hasn't changed in further discussions. I didn't go into it with the idea that I was going to try and put a good spin on it, that was just how I read it. People who like a character are going to resist a bit when a negative reading comes around, and I realize we've all got to manage our feelings to be considerate of each other. I also don't think that an idea is better because it's a more cynical take, or inherently better because it's a more ideal take. Though sometimes people are just going to disagree. Sometimes there's a bias for a character, and sometimes there's a bias against a character. People are also naturally going to be defensive of characters they like, as I can be about Kaladin (and Adolin, and Dalinar, etc.), and people are going to be defensive of arguments they put forward, and sometimes they're all at odds with each other. There's bias on all sides, and it doesn't mean that one side is more rational or more subjective. Sometimes consternation is going to happen, and an argument just isn't going to get traction with some people, and there isn't necessarily one reason that happens. There are many reasons that happens, often more than one reason per person, because people are complicated and we're all bringing tons of baggage and previous experience and emotions into it. I don't want to assume, but I can guess at reasons. Maybe it's because people like Adolin. But that's not the only reason that could possibly exist, and it doesn't feel great to have one's entire stance reduced to 'it's because you like Adolin'. So having been on the receiving end of that a bit in my life online, I try my best to not make assumptions and leave peoples' motivations out of it. If people are being disrespectful, like, you know, please let staff know. I want 17S to be a place to have lots of great character discussions, as that's 100% my jam. But people are allowed to disagree. I'll use myself as an example, for ease of discourse. If there's an interpretation put forward that goes against how I read something, I'll disagree with it (obviously as respectfully as I can). Let's say this one scene interpretation of Adolin. Even when I try to dissect my own reaction to the take you presented, it's nebulous. There was a lot going on. There was a gut rejection of something that felt unfair to a character I liked; there was a dissonance between that take and how I've always read it; the one take felt "untrue", disconnected from what my sense of the reality of the book is. There's more than that, but that's all that I feel able to put words to. When I disagree, it's not out of a desire to inflict the feeling of said consternation. I can only just say my point as wholeheartedly as I can. Disagreeing, even a lot of disagreement, a natural part of discourse. If there's dismissiveness, condescension, a "tone" - that's not good and that's worth being reported. But I really don't think there's anything wrong with disagreement in and of itself. If the extreme consternation has been disrespectful, let us know! But one idea being favoured over another isn't inherently an evil. That's just going to happen when there are opinions involved, sometimes more than one opinion per person. Ah... At this point, I think I've gotten quite off topic from Maya's revival. Oops. Wanna continue in PMs?

Oh, what the hey, I'll throw my hat in. There are many reasons people grit their teeth, and irritation is not the only one. People also grit their teeth when they're in pain, when experiencing anxiety or worry, when they're angry, when they're bracing themselves for something difficult or unpleasant. Irritation is one interpretation, but one needn't take it as the only one. Wishing for a Radiant could mean he doesn't want to be doing what he's doing, but my reading is when someone without superpowers wishes for someone with superpowers to be around, he might be feeling inadequate and that he's feeling like he's not doing a good job. In my mind, this lines up well with the feelings of inadequacy that are a major part of his characterization in OB. Making sure the child is safe and then not wanting to waste time before rejoining the battle where their side is already overwhelmed doesn't have to be a bad thing, either. Personally, I don't have a huge stake in this one scene for Adolin's Radiant-ness, but even this little bit can be hugely subjective. Speaking purely user to user, I'm going to admit I was a little upset to see positive arguments for Adolin's character described as lacking objectivity. I'm sure you didn't intend it to come across as though arguments supporting Adolin being either a good man and/or Radiant are inherently less rational than arguments dismissing it, but at first blush, it's kind of how it read.

I guess we'll find out, since she's definitely getting flashbacks.

Oh, hell yeah, this is excellent. Been shipping it since day one! Psyched to see this thread! Please indulge me, I'm very excited and I want to talk about it - I'm gonna keep it to Oathbringer because I don't have my notes on Kadolin handy from WoK and WoR anymore, but I can dig them out later maybe. It's okay, because Oathbringer had a lot of good stuff between them! You might even say, the best. The only thing I wanna particularly talk about from WoR is the scenes between Kaladin and Adolin after they get out of prison together; when Kaladin realizes what Adolin has done for him, and when Adolin tries to give Kaladin the Shards. This is the single biggest event in their relationship that changed everything for Kaladin, and it followed directly from the results of the arena fight, which changed everything for Adolin. - Up until then, their relationship had been contentious. Neither of them liked or trusted each other very much, but they held onto the minimum amount of civility for Dalinar's sake. Adolin loves his dad and obeyed because of Dalinar's trust, though he himself wasn't sure of Kaladin; Kaladin found Dalinar the only lighteyes worthy of his trust and took Adolin's presence as part of the package deal. (Buy one Kholin, get em all!) - Adolin, great judge of character, is also suspicious because he can tell something's not right about Kaladin. He is 100% correct. - Then, something happens. Adolin is tricked by Sadeas in the duel. Four-on-one. Kaladin does something neither he or Adolin expects and puts his life on the line to fight with him. Adolin still knows Kaladin's hiding something, but is in this one moment, totally and completely assured of Kaladin's good character. You will note after the duel, Adolin's behaviour towards Kaladin is now 100% amiable and happy, eager to make friends. In prison, in that dark place, betrayed by even Dalinar, Kaladin comes out to find that one person has believed and supported him - Adolin. But something is very scary - in almost a complete and total reflection of what happened with Amaram, here is a very high-ranked lighteyes offering him Shards in the same room as his much-beloved squad. When Kaladin refused the Shard with Amaram, his men were slaughtered and he was sold into slavery. Kaladin refuses Adolin, absolutely terrified of what could happen. And Adolin is confused, "baffled" it says - confirms that Kaladin really means it, but accepts it! Totally accepts it! Of course he'll let Kaladin do what he wants with the Shards he's gifted him, though he wants to pay back Kaladin for all he's done. Raise Kaladin's status, make him a lighteyes, and bestow a huge honor so that what happened in the arena where Kaladin was betrayed to prison could never happen again. This is when Kaladin realizes that he can trust Adolin - where everyone else, even Dalinar let him down, Adolin pays back Kaladin's honor with his. For the rest of WoR, Kaladin is still ambivalent about Adolin sometimes, but is clearly wavering between his earlier feelings of "who's this rich lighteyed jerk" and his experience of Adolin being honorable towards him. --- Now, Oathbringer was huge for them! Kaladin's ambivalent feelings about Adolin start to fade - in my mind, it's hard to experience Adolin's extremely earnest attempt to be friends without responding in some way. They've never been more friendly than in OB. The way they think about each other in OB is unprecedented between them, and I thrilled every time I read it, as it's such a huge dynamic change from how it was when they first met. Adolin is the most overt. Every time he describes Kaladin in Oathbringer, he's full to bursting with admiration and more than a little hero worship. Every way he describes Kaladin, much more than any other character does. Adolin notices when Kaladin does something cool, when the wind sweeps his hair, how cool he looks when Kaladin is using Stormlight for Radiant powers. He likes Kaladin and thinks he's cool. It's a fact. These are Adolin's own words. Holy crow, guys. Kaladin's POV has takes on Adolin which I would never have ever seen him say about Adolin. The absolute turnabout of Kaladin's feelings about Adolin are, I think, best represented by his internal dialogue when they're in Kholinar, although I think there's a lot in OB as Dreamstorm pointed out in the op. A small collection above. Kaladin's feelings especially have made the most dramatic change from where they started. Where was once out and out contempt for Adolin, Kaladin now respects him, trusts him, thinks of him as a friend, and likes him. I kept it short just because I think it's a bit long already, but Kaladin and Adolin's relationship has undergone such an incredible growth throughout the series, and I cannot wait to see what happens after this.

She seems to me to be something of a religious moderate - the religion being something that she does believe in (or considers herself to believe in), but not something that she's necessarily always thinking about - just a part of her world's foundations. When confronted more with Jasnah's atheism, it doesn't seem like her beliefs are really affected, but more she reacts to it as a shake-up of "how things should be". I have lots to say about Shallan's treatment of those of lower social status, but it could/should wait until we're further along.

If Glys is a corrupted Truthwatcher spren, it follows that Renarin is a kind of Truthwatcher, even if a corrupted one.

It isn't a very good pun, but that's Shallan's humour for you.

It is a tiny sliver of wood, but what makes it a splinter in this case is that it's embedded in someone's skin and can be painful.

To say something "got out of hand" means that the situation has become crazy, out of control. She's also saying that the splinter was removed, also 'out of her hand' - a little pun. The sick mind thing I imagine is about the Vorin safehand, and how any joke about a Vorin woman's hand has a 50/50 chance of being inappropriate.

Seeing as both Eshonai, the flashback character, and Venli, the current time viewpoint character taking over for her, are both Willshaper enough to count, I consider it actually moot.

Timbre having been Eshonai's spren first, I think we can say Eshonai certainly was.

I also have agreed with Cal on this for a while - great to see it all lined out like that, with quotes and all. Nicely put together.

Ahh, this is exactly my thoughts, is extremely consistent with his POV in previous books. Nicely said.

That is a take I can't agree with, but I've said all I wanted to already so I think I'm going to leave this here. Have fun!

Yeah, I'm sorry. I disagree with all of it. To me, it just seems like one way to interpret what happened in OB, but it doesn't ring true for what I read in the book, and I think we've repeated ourselves to each other long enough now. I'm going to stop here. Have fun!

I quoted and re-stated my original post because it feels just as relevant now as it did before. I'm not trying to stifle discussion. It's totally valid to discuss. But I personally don't find there's a deep meaning there. You're entitled to feel otherwise!

(i) It's not about it being his first foray, it's about Shallan repressing her memories nearly killing him. Nothing to do with length of time. (ii) If Pattern, at the beginning of WoR, is what he looks/acts like when being revived from broken Ideals, it's a safe bet that further broken Ideals will look like it. (iii) Take or leave the comparison with Syl; it was a fourth quarter addition for interest - the comparison with Syl is to show a reversion. The reversion doesn't need to look the same for each spren, it's to show that there is a reversion to the beginning state. Kaladin specifically notes, when she's fraying, that she's acting like she did at the beginning. Syl also came back upon a higher level Ideal, very triumphant. Pattern didn't. The difference in revivals makes sense when taken as Kaladin going to the Third level and giving Syl that boost versus Pattern, almost killed after the Fourth, slowly rousing after Shallan essentially starts her Ideals over. Pattern is not a talker. He makes noises, hums, buzzes, and makes occasional one line comments. Him entering Shadesmar was the most chatty we've ever seen him. Final moments in Shadesmar into the battle of Thaylen has Pattern and Shallan show the most emotion and concern for each other that we've ever seen. The last four chapters was also stuffed full with an incredible amount of people and Brandon trying to wrap up the entire book. I do not take it as anything other than a side effect of that. Pattern's not the only one who only got a little bit to wrap up. It's pretty in line with his usual amount of talking in WoR and OB - going just by consistency and frequency, it's not out of the ordinary for him. I didn't say the "lessening" doesn't exist - although I do not see it at all for Shallan's side. She acts and feels exactly the same, even when telling truths, it was one time a whole novel ago. She doesn't note anything of this kind in OB - her anxiety about telling the truth is focused around Adolin, and then solved around Adolin. Kaladin is the one who notes he's ever felt better around Shallan. And even so, I always felt Syl served much the same purpose in Kaladin's life, except I like Syl a lot better. She can tease him without it being condescending. Anyway. It might be picked up later, but Kaladin didn't close the door on that - the implication was just "as friends". The narrative shows Adolin getting it, whether or not one agrees with the text. Shallan also pushed past it with him, and to me worth so much more because Shallan was specifically afraid of it but did it anyway. Sharing personal things with someone doesn't automatically make them the best match, and really... really doesn't line up with reality. They had a moment of connection, but the chasm scene wasn't perfect, and there was stuff that happened down there that was still unresolved and left alone. The one that jump to my mind first is Shallan's total non-apology for the boots and treating him like a darkeyes, turning it around on him when he brings it up as if he's at fault for being angry and talks in circles until he becomes frustrated and just gives up. That's also in the chasm. This is fun, because I've now written enough that I can directly quote myself as an answer, because my answer to this is exactly the same thing I've written before: "They don't pay enough attention to each other, intentionally choosing not to get closer to the other, if only for Adolin's sake, and in my opinion, that choice matters." Relationships that you feed live. Relationships that you starve die. The reasons why don't matter. I've never cared about the reasons why they choose not to pursue each other because they've chosen not to pursue each other. We are going to keep fundamentally disagreeing about this, because after all this, I do not see that Kaladin has ever seen, interacted with, or recognized that Veil even exists, and the fact that he doesn't know that the alters exists is a big problem for me. I don't see his interactions with Shallan as proof that he treats them all the same, I see it as proof that he interacts with Shallan on a very basic surface level and for whatever reason, is incapable of or isn't interested in digging further to see that there is something wrong. It doesn't feel like he's treating all of her the same; it feels like he can't tell anything's wrong. This goes for everything in the chasms as well. Shallan wasn't even split into alters at that point. I do not believe as OB stands that Kaladin and Shallan understand each other. One moment in the past doesn't automatically carry forward, and both of them have changed and evolved since then. I know you disagree about Adolin being a real help, so I'll just leave it. I disagree. The entire point of Adolin and Shallan's arc was that they were hiding things from each other, and needed to learn to be honest with each other in order to move their relationship forward. Their arc is different from Kaladin's but again, that doesn't make it inferior. "Understanding" about each other does not equal just knowing things about each other, and someone knowing more facts about someone and their history does not mean they'll be better in a relationship together. It just means Kaladin learned those things first. How about the other way around? Shallan is caught off guard by what happened with Amaram and killing Helaran... because she didn't know it before. If "knowing things about another person" is the best indicator of being in a relationship together, Kaladin and Shallan would be incredibly one-sided. Kaladin trusts Adolin more than Shallan, apparently. Anyway. This whole line of logic rings really false to me. It's not how any relationship I've been in ever works, and no one relationship is more important because someone knows more stuff about me, it's about if they're there for me. Adolin is more there for Shallan, and he's a better fit. It could be, but it would be totally new information we get in SA4. In OB, there is zero evidence. It's a guess, and not a terrible one based on what we know about Shallan, but it's not supported by any of her previous povs. I'm not going to treat a guess with the same seriousness that I treat the actual text.

Kaladin in OB, though he had trouble coming to terms with it now, is now of high rank as a Radiant, and had every right to spend time with anyone he likes, especially spending time around all of the Kholins as a equal. He sure doesn't let the Kholins high rank stop him from acting how he wants to act. Kaladin and Shallan both intentionally chose not to spend time around each other after WoR. Even when they did do things together, until Kholinar almost all of it was offscreen. That is how it happened, yeah.

One, actually Shallan has known both of them for the same amount of time - she met Kaladin first, even. Given that our sense of time is skewed because it's been years for us, but only a couple months for them, I completely disagree with the take in your first paragraph. Given that Adolin and Shallan's arc is about them becoming honest with each other - we are explicitly given the reason that they are nervous to share their real selves with each other is that they want the relationship to work, the fact that they succeed in the end is not proof against their relationship. While Shallan and Kaladin remained stagnant, Adolin and Shallan moved forward. The entire point of everything I've said in this thread is that Kaladin and Shallan still are missing serious gaps, and Adolin and Shallan are succeeding. The fact that they are still in the process of moving forward doesn't mean it's over. It means they're moving forward and Shallan and Kaladin are not. It is not only possible that Shallan was ignoring his warnings but explicitly in the text I quoted. It's already there. In the quotes, we see that Shallan sees his warnings, and so do we. She sees them exactly for that they are and doesn't comment on them, but in part five, she does answer Pattern. I directly answered exactly that line of thinking in my quotes and commentary, but I'll repeat myself. Shallan is certainly an unreliable narrator, but we have LOTS of Shallan seeing Pattern's warnings and worry and choosing not to answer him. It is in the book. When Pattern is unhappy, Shallan sees it, and so do we. It's explicitly written. She's unreliable but not THAT unreliable. We see, many times, Pattern being unhappy with the situation, and Shallan's pov explicitly recognizes it. It is not ignored by her pov. It's never left out of her pov. She sometimes doesn't answer him, but she doesn't block out his reaction to what's going on. I do not agree that it's possible, as it'd go against narrative sense, against how we've seen it written when Shallan really IS blocking out something - we've seen what it looks like in the text when Shallan is blocking out something and it is not this. It's at the end in part five when she stabilizes to only having veil and radiant that she finally talks to Pattern about how she's doing. And the point is that she does. After not answering Pattern's unhappiness throughout kholinar up until when Shallan has her big moment with all her selves... Then she is honest with Pattern. Their relationship in part five is the best we've seen it by any metric. Brandon doesn't leave things out of Shallan's pov. When something is wrong, he shows it, and shows Shallan's reaction to it. OB, she doesn't always respond to Pattern but she sees him. WoR, she blocks things out, but it's still visible to us in the narrative. Brandon explicitly shows us when something is wrong with Shallan.

I don't know... The fact that they can have a couple moments like that, but still totally miss each other on a more genuine level of understanding there's something more going on with their issues... I know this thread is not really willing to give Adolin a single inch, but I thought it was a well-made comparison of Adolin and Kaladin in OB, as they relate to Shallan, that Kaladin may have a couple moments of... like the banter? they're both good at the banter. But when it comes to the serious stuff - my go-to is the scene on the Reacher ship where they totally just miss each other - when it comes to genuine knowing each other, I just don't see anything there. Adolin, while noted as not having the same ability for womanly banter (as it's thought of in Alethi culture), good-naturedly goes along with it, and quietly observes Shallan throughout the book to the point that he does know something's wrong and that Shallan is putting on fronts. Shallan herself observes Adolin - I mostly noted it in Part One for the Sadeas murder and Part ...Four/Five? About Adolin not wanting to be king, and sees his real feelings and supports them. It's been talked through this a bit, mostly having this totally dismissed as somehow inferior to what Kaladin can do to support Shallan, but in OB we see Kaladin and Shallan having that surface level similarity but looking right past each other when it counts; where the whole plot between Adolin and Shallan is about them coming to more understanding with each other and listening to and supporting each other. The last sentence, I'm down with. I'm not sure she sees other people clearly - but what I read had Adolin and Shallan giving each other way more real support than with Kaladin.

It's okay to not know about the Word of Brandon archive, or have lightning quick WoB searching-fu like these two. Promise you have nothing to be worried about, it's all good!

I more perceive that not only have they not spent enough time around each other, but haven't made the effort to get to know each other in a way that really matters to pick up the extent of the other's issues. They don't pay enough attention to each other, intentionally choosing not to get closer to the other, if only for Adolin's sake, and in my opinion, that choice matters. The fact that they chose to remain at surface level understanding of each other, but continuing to get actual emotional and mental support from other sources (Syl and Bridge Four for Kaladin, Adolin and Wit for Shallan), but we also see lessening of their issues with Syl to Kaladin (he's incredibly light-hearted around her, and without the bratty jokes at his expense), and Adolin to Shallan (if you take this aspect of the entire conclusion of their arc together as Brandon presented it, which I am doing). Kaladin and Shallan just don't seem to ever really see each other. Sure, I've found their banter funny here and there, but they pretty much only have their banter.

I think it's a possibility that they could support each other in this, but I don't think it's a given. Right now, they are both getting support from other places that actually is closer to what they need. In this, Kaladin wasn't necessarily thinking that he should be able to recognize a thought as unhealthy and put it aside, he listened to the explanation of Shallan just making it disappear, looked at that complete repression, and thought, yes that's it. He can't see the distress that it's putting her through; he was given the signs of it and didn't even follow up on her bad reaction because to him it was so obviously a Good Thing. And Shallan seeing the free emotions of Kaladin as something amazing and great and attractive when Kaladin is put under so much distress by his situation and the emotions that come from it, I feel uncomfortable with how when she thinks of him, it's always that surface level of crackly bitterness, which is somewhat present in his POV... but just so different from the Kaladin we've gotten to know. I see your point that they don't recognize those are unhealthy things in the other person and want some of it for themselves, but that leads right back to my point, which is I think it's a huge problem that they don't recognize it as unhealthy. They can't see past that to see how the other person needs to grow past it. Kaladin can't help Shallan stop repressing her emotions while he's desperate for the ability to do exactly the same thing, when he sees it as a wonderful thing. He's not going to know where the limit really is if he's trying to do it himself. And Shallan can't help Kaladin while she can't even recognize his emotions as the thing that are bringing him down, especially seeing how much his depressive states can and have been a reaction to his circumstances as darkeyed, which is something she totally dismissed in WoR and never thought about again in OB. I would love for both of them to grow more past this state of affairs, and I'm curious to see how far they are after the year skip, but right now, I don't think they could help each other. 100% agreed with everything regarding Tarah and a possible future partner; pretty in line with my thoughts.

Also interesting, this seems to be the biggest point of their incompatibility. Every time they see the other's illness/coping mechanism, they admire it. It's more than just one time Kaladin said the wrong thing, it's been a constant theme of them genuinely wanting in the other what makes them dysfunctional. Shallan is always going on in her narrative about Kaladin's stormy nature, rugged, wild, freely emotional - when Kaladin hates his own emotions and finds them inescapably out of his control. Kaladin didn't say the wrong thing, he genuinely admires Shallan's ability to dissociate her emotions away. Neither of them are in a place right now to be of any help to the other, not when they see the dysfunctional behaviour as their own solution. If they grow more in the next book or two, maybe they could be a support to each other, but not any time soon.