KiManiak

I don’t think we should be so sure that Gavilar’s Shards and Elhokar’s Shards are the same. I’d always had the impression that they were different, at least according to the descriptions given by the book. Gavilar's armor: Elhokar's armor: This one was harder for me to get a description of, although the color alone shows the differences. But, as has already been stated here, a difference in color of Plate means nothing. Painting and ornamentation of Shardplate is common. The book goes into more detail about the accessorizing of Shardplate: So Plate can be changed. But I don't believe that Blades can be (or at least the book has given us no reason to believe they can be). And the 2 Blades do not appear to be described in a similar fashion: Gavilar's: Elhokar's is described somewhat differently: Now, there's a chance that Szeth viewed the design on the Blade to just be burning flames (even though we've been shown that Szeth is rather well educated and can even read/write) while Dalinar knew the design to be the etching of the 10 fundamental glyphs. And that Szeth didn't note the large crossguard at all while Dalinar found it rather noteworthy. But I think a stronger argument could be made that they are somewhat different. So I think it's as likely (if not moreso) that Elhokar has his own Shards, as to the belief that Elhokar has Gavilar's shards. Which leads to the question: Where are Gavilar's Shards? Are they the same place as the Shards that Dalinar won from the Parshendi?

Paperclip – I believe it, and commend your diligence in reviewing the next ~ 200 comments to verify no one else had really pointed out what you did. I’ll give you an Upvote for that! (Although, to be fair, a number of folks did have a similar thought as mine about how the drawing of the spren may have led to the spren being in its low-developmental state, so I can’t take all of the credit. AG Rooster did put something along those lines down in this thread first.) Still, good point. I should have clarified. I believe the recording of the spren itself is what locked the spren into that shape and infantile/juvenile stage of development. The Memory she takes leads directly to her drawing the spren (Shallan usually takes Memories when she plans to draw something) and defining it. The new definition can still probably develop on its own into a fully mature Cryptic given time and experiences. But I think Shallan’s actions were comparable to hitting the “reset button” on the Cryptic’s cognitive development. Where you and I apparently differ (and it could just be semantics) is that you state the spren was released from its frozen state after she draws it (although you acknowledge it was drawn imperfectly). Her drawing it therefore was a relatively good thing? (Is I think what you’re saying; correct me if I’m wrong) Whereas I think the activity itself of recording it imperfectly is what led to the reset of the spren to an early development stage. I question whether she needed to record it at all (or at least at that point in time). I’m also skeptical whether the sigh the spren issued was really one of relief, just because Shallan (as an unreliable narrator) tells us that what she thinks. (Being a big Brandon fan has taught me to question any assumption or conclusion that one of his characters has "come to" and is therefore trying to have the reader believe! )

Hoser - Cool, thanks for the clarification. I admit that I don't always check when someone claims WoB on a topic; also there is a preponderance here of opinions being stated as fact or foregone conclusion. This is a good reminder to double-check or at least request clarification on various definitive pronouncements. I do believe my point holds as to whether Tanavast was alive during the Recreance or not, though. I don't believe the Heralds being able to choose whether/not to hold to their oaths is indicative of Honor's being alive or not. I'm not stating it as fact; just presenting what I think is most likely given in-book evidence (and the likely nature of a Shard named Honor).

I’m sorry I missed this or I would have responded yesterday. Kyzkle – First off, I like how much effort and consideration you appear to have put in to develop the theory, so Upvote For You! However, a few things: 1) I see it’s already been mentioned that WoB is Tanavast was alive at the Recreance; I’m curious as to what evidence there would be that he was even dead before the breaking of the Oathpact. Whether he liked it or not, I would assume the Heralds were always free to make the choice to no longer hold to their oaths. I don’t see an entity named “Honor” denying his Heralds the free will necessary to hold to their oaths. Otherwise, it’s not honor that would keep them to their oath; it would be a lack of ability to do anything else. 2) It’s possible the Radiants betrayed the spren before the Day of Recreance, but what then would you attribute to Dalinar noting, “A terrible feeling struck him. A sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal…What was that dreadful feeling, that screaming he swore he could almost hear?” This (and the glow slowly fading from the Blades) makes a pretty strong argument for the severing of the bond between at least 300 Radiants and their spren, as well as the spren’s feelings of great betrayal. 3) I think it’s funny that you think Jasnah is lying about the name “Liespren.” Intentional or not, that was pretty amusing. Although I would have to ask, if you don’t believe Jasnah is being honest about the name of Shallan’s spren, why would you believe Jasnah’s story about the rest? 4) I really do like your theory about Cryptics balancing out Kaladin’s bonding of an Honorspren with Shallan’s bonding of a Cryptic. I think there are some logical questions (Are the Cryptics, or any spren in Shadesmar, aware when any other spren bond with a human, no matter the distance in the Physical Realm? Was Syl acting as an agent of other Honorspren when she bonded Kaladin?), but I’m definitely intrigued by a possible rivalry or competition between Honorspren and Cryptics. 5) I agree with Shadewolf about having doubts that Ivory and Jasnah were the first bonded pairing in generations. Even though I disagree with most of it, I do like where you are going with some of this. Brandon often writes his characters to be not-fully-informed narrators (or whatever the technical term is). I am comfortable questioning the validity of "facts," told to us by Jasnah, especially when in the next breath she's communicating (apparently) erroneous information regarding Cultivation and Honor.

In regards to Shallan’s spren, I was reminded of the Interlude with the 2 ardents (Geranid and Ashir) where one ardent was measuring the spren. By measuring (defining it, maybe?) the spren, she set the spren firmly in place (until she erased the measurements). I wonder if the action of drawing the pattern the way Shallan did, locked her spren into that shape? Maybe she defined the spren to be that Pattern. Here’s where the wild speculation comes in: What if the Pattern is the early developmental stages of Cryptics? Furthermore what if, given time, the Pattern Shallan was observing would have developed into something closer to the Cryptics we have seen before, and would have been able to better interact with her? Basically, what if Shallan’s capturing of the Pattern on paper defined it as an infantile/juvenile Cryptic, and she must now wait and work with it for it to mature and develop? And, I see I was "ninja'd" by AG Rooster while typing this! So be it... upvote to you, sir!

I'm amused by the fact that Elhokar takes to Kaladin right away. This could lead to all kinds of interesting developments. Btw, I really liked when Kaladin stationed 2 men on the balcony and told the doubting Dalinar (paraphrasing): "That's the way I'd come in." Caused me to have a big fat grin plastered on my face for a bit.

So now we're hypothesizing: Shardblades can be summoned my modern Shardholders without any type of particular hand motion/activity; and Shardblades can be summoned and kept invisible? As I said, I'm cool with wildly speculating to come up with theories (I do it all the time). But I've yet to see any in-book evidence to support either of those theories, and plenty of in-book evidence to dispute them. If Shardblades don't require some type of hand/arm motion or stance to summon them, then why hasn't a character done it, especially when it would be in their best interests to conceal the fact that they are summoning a Shardblade? If Shardblades can be kept invisible, why would the Shardbearers make them visible and draw attention to them while in battle or confrontation, when the element of surprise or uncertainty would aid them more in fighting their opponent? Why isn't the possibility of this mentioned even once in the book? ETA: Also, we later see Adolin begin the act of summoning his Shardblade (by holding out his hand, no less) when Adolin sees his father plunge Oathbringer in the ground, and this is after his father ordered him to keep his Blade as mist. It's more likely that "keep your Blade as mist" just means don't summon it yet.

I guess my question to you would be: What in-book evidence is there of a modern day Shardbearer summoning his Shardblade without holding out their hand? What in-book evidence of a modern Shardbearer is there where Brandon doesn't point out the act of summoning in a somewhat drawn out or delayed way? I think even when Dalinar is kicking Elhokar's rear end, Brandon mentions that the Blade is summoned by Elhokar holding his hand to the side, right before Dalinar kicks his hand (so clearly, Dalinar saw him summoning it). That was clearly a time when Elhokar probably wouldn't have telegraphed his actions (unless maybe he had to?). Like I said, I'm cool with the theory that maybe it's not required; I just don't recall anything in the book to support that theory.

I am not necessarily disputing your theory about aborting the summoning process right before the Blade appears. But for clarification's sake, it should be noted that Adolin: 1) held out his hand and spoke a couple of lines; 2) then Sadeas's officer replied; 3) Adolin replied back; 4) the officer spat in his hand; 5) Adolin said something one more time; and finally 6) Adolin's Shardblade appeared. Now, it's hard to gauge the flow of time in the exchange, but Adolin could've started to summon the Blade as early as the moment he held out his hand or as late as immediately after the guard spat on his hand (pausing for dramatic effect, maybe ). But I believe there was more than enough time to summon his Blade after he held out his hand. I don't think it's clear whether the physical act of holding out (whether in front of or to the side) one's hand is necessary, but I also don't think we can summarily rule it out.

Just a reminder that we see the Knights Radiant summon Shardblades during the Starfalls chapter as well. It does appear that the female Shardbearer summons her Blade rather swiftly after she heals Dalinar/Heb. (Compare that to when Kaladin sees Adolin summon his Shardblade in the market, when Adolin is confronting Sadeas's men who are assaulting the prostitute. Kaladin notes that Adolin holds his hand out, like he is attempting to shake the other guy's hand) I've always thought it was noteworthy that Brandon often mentioned the 10 heartbeats necessary for modern Rosharians to summon their Shardblades, but in Dalinar's flashbacks it appears that the Knights Radiant summon their Blades almost instantaneously.

As of now, I would support the belief that the breaking of the oaths on the Day of Recreance is the betrayal that the spren spoke of. I would clarify that the betrayal directly impacted all of the spren that were currently bonded to the Knights Radiant, but had a different and less direct -albeit still painful- impact to other spren, likely throughout the Cognitive Realm. Remember that during Dalinar’s flashback of the Day of Recreance, after the Knights Radiant had given up their Blades and Plate, the glow around the Shardblades began to fade. Then: Also remember, that on the Day of Recreance, Dalinar only saw the Stonewards and Windrunners give up their Plate and Blade. I would theorize that all spren linked to Windrunners (including Syl) were affected at that time (along with the spren for Stonewards, of course). I don’t think they died; I think they were severely hurt and damaged, though. I think this is how they lost themselves. It's likely this reverberated throughout the Cognitive Realm, and the other spren never forgot this betrayal.

I'd like to learn more about the Knights Radiant: what are the final 3 orders; what are each Order's abilities; do Windrunners only have 3 Lashings; is each order only restricted to 3 type of Lashes (or whatever); will more of Bridge 4 be on the path to becoming Radiants; etc. I'd like to learn more about spren: their types, their abilities, their limitations, their hierarchy, why they choose who they choose, why some spren in the physical realm have lost some portion of their memories. I'd like to see/hear more details about the current status of each of the Heralds. I'd like to see more information about the Unmade. Are they the Ten Fools? Are they the antithesis of the Heralds? Are they still on Roshar, waiting somewhere or do they spend their time between desolations off Roshar proper? (For the record, I think this topic is least likely to get anything more than a few allusions or references in WoR, though). I'd like to learn more about oathgates and/or be introduced to other types of fabrials, whether legendary/historical or modern. I'd like to see more "anti-Shardbearer" weapons. It seems to me in a world where one Shardbearer is a one man army able to wreak havoc, that strongholds should have more weapons to defend against Shardbearers (like ballista, onagers, trebuchet or the like). When Taln appeared at the capital at the end of WoK, one guard ran to warn others. Maybe we'll get a glimpse of the anti-Shard defenses being prepped before they realize Taln is passed out on the ground. And a whole bunch of other things, but I'll stop there for now.

Interesting that the first 2 chapters focus (somewhat briefly) on betrayal of an agreement or alliance. Chapter 1 has Jasnah discuss the “ancient betrayal” that the spren feel Rosharians committed against them. Chapter 2 has Kaladin reflect on the betrayal of Sadeas against Dalinar’s men. Since Jasnah goes to Shadesmar 6 years before Kaladin and Shallan’s interaction with their spren, I wonder if she was one of, if not the, first the spren reached out to. And so the spren tested her especially …harshly due to some residue of their anger at the betrayal. I question whether other Elsecallers would go through so difficult a process. Wow. This has led to so many more questions, so much more speculating and theorizing. I think we'll be coming up with new stuff for days...

Also, make sure to check out the updated cover on the Tor.com post. Kaladin looks a bit better, in my opinion.

I'm not (necessarily) refuting the theory that Nalan took back his Honorblade, but I think that whether/not the people in Iri or Emul have seen many Shardblades, the bureaucrats of Azish may have (at least in comparison to the vast majority of folks in the Stormlight Archive, let's say). In the recently updated Lift Interlude (there were slight edits to the one in the Steelhunt; check the recent one on Tor.com for the changes), after Darkness is prevented from killing Lift one of the viziers comments on how a constable could requisition a Shardblade. As I mention in my post on a different topic on this forum here, an argument could be made that the government of Azish owns and controls a number of ShardBlades, and possibly Plate as well. I think the gathering of government officials at the selection of a new Prime would have someone who is as likely to identify a strange looking Shardblade as your average Alethi highprince would.

I question whether Hoid is hinting that there is a valid reason for eye color making someone part of the ruling class. I guess it's a matter of how you interpret his somewhat vague comment: I guess it's a matter of whether you see "valid" as "justified" or "correct." I'm still not sure. I think it could be argued that over time, Alethi associated the light, glowing eyes of Knights Radiant with that of leadership; and that after a few generations the distinction between following a KR with light eyes and following anyone with light eyes was lost. In that sense, the reason is valid, but not necessarily the correct one. In rereading your post, I don't necessarily think you're advocating for that type of association (valid = correct); I just wanted to make sure the distinction in what Hoid is actually saying is noted.

Born in L.A, but lived in the Bay Area (Northern California) for the vast majority of my life.

You're right, we're not that knowledgeable about how much of the magic works on Roshar. Even what we think we know (3 Lashings for Windrunners for example) may be incomplete. Having said that, based upon the Surges we've been exposed to and what Wyndle says (he does mention Regrowth in the context of explaining the more advanced aspects of Growth that Lift may not have been ready for) I think the safest assumption is that Regrowth is linked to Growth. Ym is one mismatch to the theory, but don't forget about the female Stoneward; she also disputes the theory. Plus, when Dalinar has the vision of the day of Recreance, he mentions that there were both male and female Surgebinders who divest themselves of the Shardplate and Blades, and these would be from the Windrunner and Stoneward Orders. So, there are other bits of evidence that refute the absolutism of gender aligned Order and Herald.

I don't believe this is necessarily the case. In the "Starfalls" Chapter, Dalinar sees a female Knight Radiant that appears to be a Stoneward. That is Talenel's order. In the Ym Interlude, Ym has access to the Growth Surge, and it is highly likely that he has the Illumination Surge as well. This is therefore most likely to be Palah's order that he would be associated with. As of now, we don't know if all (or even some) of the Orders are predominately the same gender as the Herald they are associated with, but we know that not every order has exclusively the same gender as their affiliated Herald.

I'll play: 10 Silver Age Kingdoms 10 Surges 10 heartbeats to summon a Shardblade 10 Essences 10 Soulcasting-related gemstones 10 Soulcasting properties 10 Levels of Voidbinding Edit: As for sixteens: Kaladin was going to go to Karbranth to study to be a surgeon at 16 (isn't that the earliest students can be accepted?) Adolin inherited his Shardblade (or Plate) at 16, I believe (from his mother's side, which I hope we find more about in Dalinar's book) Dalinar took 1600 troops with him when confronting Sadeas after the Tower (I had to "research" this one, as that's one of my favorite Chapters of WoK to read over and over and over...) Edit again: Oh, well, this wasn't all that secret as the number is spelled out. How about a subtle slipping in of the number 16 instead?

Which brings up some interesting questions (well, possibly only interesting to a few, but still)... How could such a collection of Shardblades and possibly Plate be adequately stored and defended? Assuming that Blades are used and then relinquished by a still-alive user, the only way we've seen ShardBlades be non-fatally released is by sticking them in the ground (and possibly willing them to stay there). This means that it is highly unlikely that the armory/armories are mobile; it is likely to be a stationary depository. It also requires that the location would be known by a select group of people. This stationary location would be a target, and would require defenders. The Shards could be stored 1 of 2 ways: 1) Shard(s) to be housed in separate, multiple locations; or 2) Shards all housed together. Since it is highly likely that an armory of Shards would be targeted by enemy Shardbearers, the armory would likely need to be defended by Shardbearers as well. So, scenario 1) would require at least 1 Shardbearer per location (requiring the requisition and use of more Shards) to protect each armory. On the other hand, scenario 2) would not require multiple Shardbearers at multiple locations; but since the single armory would be a lone target and since it houses all of the Shards, it would be the logical objective for the vast majority of the enemy Shardbearers (and of the enemy, period). So you would require multiple Shardbearers to defend that location as well. However, it would probably require less active Shardbearers to defend the single location. This could lead to all kinds of questions: Who are the Shardbearing guards? How do you pick them? How long do they get to hold on to their Shards? Do the Shards rotate among the guards fairly? Who watches the Watchmen? Etc...

Also, confirmation from Peter that Lift will only appear in this interlude in WoR (although that's fairly consistent with every other Interlude character to date, except Szeth), but that she is likely to appear in future Stormlight Archive novels. Also, just like in WoK, there will be one viewpoint character that appears in multiple Interludes of WoR. Edit to Add: Natans- I don't believe that Darkness is a regular Azir (Azir? or Azish?) constable either. What I found noteworthy, was that the Azir vizier mentioned the "requisition" of a Shardblade, like it was common. And that constables aren't normally the ones who can requisition them. This implies (to me, anyway) that the Azish have multiple Shardblades (note the plural in the quotation) that can be requisitioned by certain authorized folks. From that, I would extrapolate that the Azish government appears to control access to and usage of multiple Shardblades/plates (if you have to go through a governmental process to become Prime, it stands to reason that you would have to go through bureaucracy to access the Shards). I am taking somewhat of a leap that this is knowledge that Dalinar didn't already know. It just seems to me that a government willing to allow authorized representatives to borrow Shards would have a sufficient number of those Shards for multiple reasons (the first one that comes to mind would be to have enough Shards to reclaim the borrowed ShardBlade/Plate if the borrower decides to keep them indefinitely). I would guess needing to have at least 5 Blades, in order for this to make sense (remember that the viziers saw that one of Darkness's minions had a Shardblade as well). I have no textual basis for thinking they have Shardplate though; just a feeling based upon the cavalier way the vizier seemed to mention requisitioning the ShardBlade.

So, one distinction between the Lift Interlude released in the Steelhunt and the Lift Interlude on Tor.com is the discussion of Darkness and his access to a Shardblade. The Steelhunt version says this: “Does anyone know the name of that constable?” one of the viziers asked. “I feel that we should track down his superiors and ask that he be leashed a little more tightly.” While the Tor.com version says this: “Does anyone know the name of that constable?” one of the viziers asked. “When did we start letting officers of the law requisition Shardblades?” (emphasis mine) This leads to all types of speculation. The first thing that comes to mind for me is that Azir has Shardblades that are available for authorized people to access them. The second thing that comes to mind, is that Dalinar's estimation about the total number of Shardblades (and indirectly, the number that the other kingdoms may have) may be somewhat off. I would argue that if the Azir allow authorized folks to requisition Shardblades, they would need to have more than a few.

I think Feather meant that Tien's name is listed once, but that it is crossed out with multiple slashes (crossed out multiple times). Everyone else's name just has one slash through it.

Upvote for FeatherWriter. I agree with your sentiments regarding representations of diversity on the covers of fantasy novels in general and this series in specific.