aheerema

Szeth seems to think so: So unless the plural of Honorblades is a typo, or Szeth misspeaking in some way, Szeth knows you can have multiple blades. Furthermore, since he has the Windrunner blade, and Kaladin is doing the same things he is, then Kaladin must have the Skybreaker (gravitation) and Bondsmith (adhesion) Honorblades.

Here's another question though; what constitutes "harmful to spren"? I think he's referring to the "dead" shardblades... but that must not include "going stupid", because otherwise Syl would have all of her memories. What I'm getting at is, if Syl is a pre-Recreance Spren who was unbonded during the actual event, then will she be retrieving all of her memories of her previous bonds, and of the world at those times? Or are those memories gone forever?

I agree with Elena.

Excellent, thanks for that. But now I'm thinking about Ym's spren, and am sad. I'm curious about how much a Surgebinder's natural lifespan is affected by the bond... I seem to remember someone getting a RAFO on that from Brandon. But there will have been (and will be) unnatural deaths of Surgebinders.

A response, from Syl: Regarding the passive abilities associated with the Windrunners, I think combat is one, as evidenced in the quote above, and I think the other is an affinity for heights, for falling, flying, and the sky: Also, Kaladin mentions somewhere that even as a kid he loved climbing trees, or cliffs, or rocks, or something tall.

I'm curious to find out what others think about this... Question: How is it possible that Syl helped men kill before? From Pattern, we now know that almost no spren survived the Recreance: Hypothesis: 1. Syl is a pre-recreance spren who survived. 2. Syl remembers helping men kill before as part of a collective spren memory. 3. Syl has begun the bonding process with other potential surgebinders, but either they've abandoned her before reaching the shardblade stage, or they've died. Discussion: 1. Syl is a pre-recreance spren who survived. I've got very little for or against this one. We know she is the only (or at least the first) Honorspren to disobey the Stormfather, that she refers to the Stormfather as her father, and that the Stormfather is very protective of her, calling her "My beloved one." But I don't feel like any of that background is particularly relevant. Supporting arguments: This WoB: So how long ago was the Recreance? Maybe this is an open and shut case, just based on that quote? Counter argument: Syl's age could be independent of her consciousness (as in unborn Spren, forces, that cannot truly be created or destroyed), or she could have spent thousands of years in the cognitive realm. 2. Syl remembers helping men kill before as part of a collective spren memory. Supporting Argument: Syl has already said that all spren are basically the same. Counter Arguments: Syl herself notices that she is different than the windspren. Perhaps her statement regarding unity only applies to non-Bonding spren? Of the Bonding spren we've seen, we've mostly seen individual spren, the only other counter I can think of is Wyndle (Lift's spren) since he has referred to the Circle. Wyndle's wish was to bond with some nice old gardener, but his opinion was countered which indicates individuality. This argument depends on the Circle being other growth/vine/garden/same-as-Wyndle-spren. If all spren share a collective memory, then Pattern should have memories of what happened pre-Recreance? Speculatively, when there were many spren, you'd assume that they would have individual experiences with their bonded surgebinders... 3. Syl has begun the bonding process with other potential surgebinders, but either they've abandoned her before reaching the shardblade stage, or they've died. I don't really have anything of substance for or against this, except the previous WoB that she's been around for thousands of years, which has the same counters as previously mentioned in 1. Can a spren only bond with one person? Can they begin bonding with one person, then begin a new bond with someone else if it doesn't pan out? What if Kaladin died before regaining his bond with Syl, could someone else have revived her? I have nothing on this. I do think it could be possible that if a Surgebinder is killed, that their Spren would survive. Purely speculation though. This might actually be a pretty good question for Brandon. Conclusion: Nothing conclusive! But I'm going to go with 3. I think she's either a survivor of a dead radiant, or an incomplete failed prior bond. These are my thoughts. Do you have a favourite answer, or another idea! Shoot me down, I dare you... (Edit: Conclusion based on thread input) Conclusion: The general consensus is that Syl is a Pre-Recreance spren. Her radiant died (we don't know if this is through battle or just old age, especially since we don't know the effects of the Nahel bond on lifespan) and Syl returned to Shadesmar to wait for another bond. The Recreance occurred and she was forbidden from bonding again. She came back through from Shadesmar to bond with Kaladin against the Stormfather's wishes and lost her memories. Thanks for everyone's input! There are a few new questions that came from this that deserve their own threads, and that I might pursue unless they already exist. For example, I really like Pathfinder's question about spren transitions.

"Sorry about that"... because having to wait through those four hours was brutal, tedious, and very difficult for us.

From Chapter 33, where Syl and Kaladin are talking after the first encounter with Szeth: I read this as there are other honorspren, but they have not left the cognitive realm yet.Perhaps now with the engagement of the Stormfather, their restrictions will be relaxed and we'll see more cross-over.

I think that Elhokar will manifest as a Willshaper. My reasoning is as follows: A: He sees twisted shapes or symbol heads watching him, which point towards Cryptics, or spren like Shallan sees. B: I tie this to access to Shadesmar, either via the surge of Transformation, or Transportation. C: Lightweavers have been referred to as artists, and we haven't been told of Elhokar having any artistic leanings. So probably not Lightweavers. D: Jasnah is already an Elsecaller... so just for the sake of not duplicating orders... E: Willshapers also have access to Transportation. With reference link to my favourite coppermind.net page: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Surgebinding#Becoming_a_Surgebinder

[Edit: Nice job on the notes on the chart! Thanks for you work!] This sounds like a bit of an overlap with the "tensors" that were used in Steelheart, I wonder if we can guess at some of cohesion's uses based on that... Minor Steelheart spoilers: Alternatively... Brandon seems to like going to the molecular level... when we see a shardblade cut through an inorganic (or spiritually dead) object, perhaps the actual affect we see is the bonds between molecules being severed, the actual crystal lattice of the object divided in two along the cut. When we see Cohesion being used, perhaps the spaces within molecules are reduced. (inducing all sorts of internal stresses that we'll forgive since we're in the same breath considering something that has the power to induce these changes.) So cohesion actually changes the internal level of attraction of molecules within an object that allows them to be compressed or manipulated... not actually losing any of the materials or molecules, instead just packing them closer together in the shape that is desired.

My current understanding of the Nahel Bond and Surgebinding is pretty well summarized by the post, "Stages in the Nahel Bond", with the caveat that Surgebinding is a latent talent with minimal manifestation until full access is granted via the Nahel Bond, which requires a broken soul, as I noted here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5423-stages-in-the-nahel-bond/page-2#entry113307 For Shallan, perhaps the actual cracking or breaking of her soul occurred as she watched he father try to defend her, as her own mother attempted to murder her.

Based on what we've seen in Words of Radiance, I'm beginning to think that Surgebinding is similar to what you've said here... a latent talent with minimal manifestation until full access is granted via the Nahel Bond, which requires a broken soul.

Good grief, nice catch with Chapter title referencing the picture of Jasnah, that was way over my head. And remembering exactly which three sketches Shallan made.

[Off Topic] Re: Zahel and breath I was under the impression that by suppressing their divine breath, the Returned did not require their weekly refreshed breath. With that being said, Stormlight and Breath are both forms of Investiture, so Stormlight may fill the requirements for Vasher/Zahel.

Kurk, could you add links to the original posts regarding the above theories/predictions? I'm good with putting predictions in here too, as long as they've got an original post to link to. Thanks!

Identity of Baxil's Mistress http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/162-identity-of-baxis-mistress/#entry1252 Summary: Baxil's mistress in WoK I-7 is the Herald Shalash Theory Status: RAFO

The identity of the man Kaladin killed: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/827-the-identity-of-the-man-kaladin-killed/ Summary: The shardbearer who Kaladin killed to protect Amaram is proposed to be Helaran, Shalan's brother. Theory Status: Confirmed

I finished the book last night (I'm still trembling), and as I read I watched theory after theory either click into place, or be refuted. I've only been active for a little while here, and so haven't read all the theories linked to the Stormlight Archive, but it sure has been fun tracking through them. For the sake of those who are just digging into the depths of the Stormlight Archive, I propose using this thread as an index to those theories; perhaps with a brief summary and a proved, disproved, or RAFO status. Some theories have been very explicitly confirmed or denied in the book, some have been more subtle. I like the idea of this thread being a place where the theories that future readers won't even wrestle with (since they'll just immediately start the next book) can have their history and the homework and speculation that went on in them preserved, instead of being buried in the forums. Discussions regarding theories should take place on their specific boards. This is just an index. It will work best if you add your espoused theories as then you can edit their status yourself, but I will do my best to begin curating them from the boards. [Mods, feel free to correct or redirect this if something like this already exists... this would perhaps be more appropriate in the general Stormlight Archive forum?]

Regarding the apparent death of Jasnah the Heretic, the mentor to our book's leading lady... Brandon seems to prefer to stay away from tropes, or to turn them on their head, so I'm hoping this is a fake-out of the the "mentor occupational hazard" trope... of course, another trope is "Not Really Dead"... sigh.

I like this, but perhaps "Little Traitor" could be linked to Pattern, or to the Cryptics... I'll have to develop this thought further.

Agreed. But it wasn't my first thought, I first wondered if it was Taln, until Syl came to mind. And you beat me to it. +1 from me!

Ha, this would have been perfect about 3 days ago, I was looking for it then. Google had my back though... and html consistency too I suppose.

From Chapter 1 excerpt on Tor (emphasis added): She took off her shoes, then climbed up over the railing as instructed. Had it been this windy before? She had a moment of vertigo, standing there with socked toes gripping a tiny rim, dress fluttering in the coursing winds. A windspren zipped up to her, then formed into the shape of a face with clouds behind it. Storms, the thing had better not interfere. Was it human imagination that had given windspren their mischievous spark? This sounds an awful lot like the image of the face that Kaladin saw during the highstorm when he was strung-up above the barracks. I think this is just something the wind spren emulate because they see the face during highstorms. Syl says that the windspren are her cousins, and that she is only honourspren who came, in Chapter 9: Syl's statement doesn't preclude the possibility that other honourspren have come since she left Shadesmar, however, I don't think this windspren is an honourspren. Instead, I think its action is shown to demonstrate the awareness of spren and to remind us of how connected spren are to the experiences of Roshar.

Upvotes for Weiry! Thanks for your work!

“What has become of me?” Wyndle asked. “Thieving in the night, chased by abominations. I was a gardener. A wonderful gardener! Cryptics and honorspren alike came to see the crystals I grew from the minds of your world. Now this. What have I become?” I agree with Hoser. This quote was the biggest theory nugget [edit: for me] of the whole interlude, and it kept running through my head after reading it. I think the nature of Wyndle's comment suggests that cryptics and honourspren form the two... orders? of spren. Windspren, gardenspren, lightspren, etc. then fit within honourspren or cryptics... at least in the language/terminology and awareness of the spren themselves. (Aside: His comment also suggests culture, and other parts of the interlude suggest governance and leadership... which suddenly explodes the possibilities of what spren are exactly.) (Aside: Cryptics as a general classification seem to fit an association with the Night Mother...) Because these divisions or orders are given to us from a spren's experience, and because WoB has stated there is some division regarding the classification of honour spren among themselves, it would also make sense that Nohadon's comment regarding discerning honourspren could also be... flexible? Why would Nohadon know any better than the spren themselves which spren is an honourspren? Regarding the Inevitable Counterpoint that *Perhaps honourspren and cryptics are just the most visible/reputable/admired orders of spren which is why Wyndle references them.*: This is possible. I could be persuaded. But at this point I don't think its right. edit: Oh, and on topic... I think Wyndle is a gardenspren or vinespren...