11thorderknight

Wow. I'm not sure where to even start. Here's is what we've seen of the modern day skybreakers so far - they're a bunch of goons who follow Nalan around and assassinate people under the guise of "executing" them for trivial offenses. they don't really even seem to care about the pretense that much, to be honest; the guy who kills Gawx doesn't have the slightest excuse, even according to Nalan himself. We know that, even though they have access to dead Shardblades, they are not surgebinders. The "oaths" they follow, the "justice" they seek, are all corrupt versions of the original Ideals. As for Brandon's quote about Szeth being "approached by a member of one of the orders" the person who approaches him is Nalan himself, who doesn't count. Besides, Brandon was most likely trying to not confirm the fact that the character who approached him is, in fact, Nalan, leading to the convoluted wording. As for Szeth's oaths, and Truthlessness, we've had two books to demonstrate how ridiculous they were. Szeth was basically insane, and went even more insane when he realized he was lied to. My bet is that in book 3, he'll start out joining the fake skybreakers, and wind up realizing they're full of sh%t and become a real Skybreaker. (convenient that he already knows how to use Gravitation, huh?)

So, one of the Orders did not participate in the Recreance. We don't know enough at this point to rule much in or out, but one thing that we do know is that after the Recreance, there were no more new Radiants because spren stopped making bonds. Which is understandable of them, seeing how so many of them were killed. It's possible, then, that if a single order refused to participate, their spren type would continue to make bonds. With that theory then, we can draw some conclusions. 1. The mystery order is not the Windrunners or Stonewards, since we see them participating in the Recreance. 2. I also don't think it's any order whose spren haven't made bonds since that time, which would rule out the Lightweavers, the Elsecallers, and the Edgedancers, since we have word from all their spren that they are the first of their kind to make a bond. I also don't think it's the Truthwatchers, despite the mention of subterfuge/deception, since Ym's spren seemed fairly mindless, and Renarin's been bumbling around for a while as well, which implies a lack of guidance. 3. It may or may not be the Skybreakers, because we don't know anything about them, really, though they probably wouldn't go in for "great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine". However, I am SURE that the group that Nale calls skybreakers are NOT the original order in the sense of their members having spren bonds and being able to surgebind. It just doesn't make sense. The whole point is that Nale is going crazy and adhering to a corrupt version of his ideals. That, and the whole part about being convinced that surgebinding causes desolations. Now, if the true Skybreakers were still around, I doubt they would look kindly on a group of vigilantes going around under their name. Which makes me doubt that they're still around. 4. That leaves Dustbringers, Willshapers and Bondsmiths unaccounted for. So, which of these is not like the others? Clearly, the Bondsmiths. They had unusual spren, and they were very limited in number, to the point that the average Joe probably never saw one, or really even thought about them. Since we know that one of them was always at Urithiru, I'm guessing that their primary concern was to maintain unity among the Radiant orders, with a secondary emphasis on unity among the kingdoms. They also dealt, exclusively, with the nature of the Nahel bond. So if any order as a whole were to see past whatever information/misinformation caused the Recreance, it would be them. Since there were only three of them, it would be far easier for them to go into hiding, especially since they probably had the lowest public profile of any of the orders. My theory is that the Bondsmiths didn't abandon their oaths. Whether they instigated the Recreance, or simply failed to prevent it, I don't know. And whether there are any Bondsmiths still left (aside from Dalinar of course) I also don't know. But I would not discount the possibility, in which case, Dalinar may be getting a visit from one of them at some point in the future.

I very much doubt it. We have multiple Cosmere instances where an individual who "externalizes" investiture is able to draw it back, but no one else can (at least not without major difficulty). I bet Shallan's illusions, or Kaladin's Lashes, or Lift's slickness, will all be like the Breath in an Awaked object - it's there, and might even be able to be perceived by another surgebinder with enough investiture, but only its original owner will be able to draw it back before it runs out.

In all this eye color talk, we've neglected two extremely important characters whose eye color we have had described: Shalash and Taln'. (Yes, I'm referring to him as Taln prime, since there is controversy over exactly who he is). In the Baxil's Mistress interlude, Shalash is described as having very light violet eyes. At first I thought this was inconsistent with her order, but apparently "violet" is also used to describe the color of in-world garnets (I might have used burgundy, or dark red, but whatever). So, we know that Shalash has light eyes that match the color of her order. I don't believe that we ever have Nalan's eyes described, or Jezrien's. We do, however, get 'Taln''s eyes described; they're very dark brown. So, the color might be correct, but definitely not the lightness. Either this is a big hint that Taln' is not actually Taln, or it's a hint that he's missing whatever it is that gives the other heralds the eye lightness. Like his eyes are the right color, but went dark somehow.

Good find! My money is on an inconsistency, and I would think the Words of Radiance text is the proper one, since it makes a point of the eyes becoming a lighter shade of the same color.

This has been my theory all along. It is a perfect parallel to the spen/Blade, and explains the differences between Plate and Blade. As I've pointed out before, the properties of Plate are all, essentially, the most powerful version of stormlight enhancement: strength, speed, durability, regeneration (of the plate rather than the wearer, since the plate absorbs the damage). My theory is that a level 5 Radiant will be able to manifest Plate as the ultimate expression of his ability to hold and use stormlight. They may even be able to hold stormlight perfectly, or at least as good a a cut gemstone.

From what we've seen so far, it appears to me that the gemstone in a fabrial determines the targeted Essence of the effect, while the metal setting/pattern determines the Surge that is used and the exact form of the effect. Examples: The Regrowth fabrial in Starfalls contains topaz and heliodor, corresponding to the essences of bone and flesh. But the two gems that are linked with the Progression surge are diamond and emerald. Therefore, the Surge is determined by the metal framework. Soulcasters are dependent on the specific gem placed in the setting to determine what they can do; but the gems can obviously be switched out, to allow for other uses. Spanreeds use ruby, which targets spark/fire (i.e. energy, i.e. the kinetic energy of the pen's movement). Alerters use heliodor, again, flesh. Navani's wet-vac fabrial (the thing that dried the tents) uses a giant garnet, (blood/water), and the space-heaters use ruby (again, fire). It's pretty clear that the gemstones in all of these are exchangeable, too, just like they are in Soulcasters. Therefore, the "magic" is in the metal framework itself. Which begs the question - what's the difference between Navani and friends' fabrials, and the ancient ones? Obviously we dont' know enough, but from what we've seen, it seems that the major difference is in effect rather than construction/appearance. The modern ones all seem to create very specific uses of stormlight, possibly more specific than a surgebinder would even be able to accomplish. The ancient ones, on the other hand, basically allow a non-surgebinder (or the wrong surgebinder) to use a surge it all it's variety. In the world of physical tools, this is backwards. It's much easier to design and build a shovel than a bulldozer, for instance. Easier to build a cart than a Ferrari. But in the world of cognitive/spiritual tools? It appears to be easier to build something for one very specific task (maintain connection to that other pen; suck in all nearby water) than it is to allow access to the Essence of a natural force.

This. However, we do know that's it's not just rumor - Moash did become lighteyes. I think it is significant though, that his eyes basically just turned a lighter version of the original color, rather than becoming blue, or green, or whatever. Makes me wonder: if Szeth were Alethi, would his "dark green" eyes make him a lighteyes or a darkeyes?

Two things, in response to the two divergent thoughts being discussed here: 1. Surge difficulty - I think all the surges are equally easy to use, but some are harder than others to use usefully. Here's what I mean; with Gravitation, you pick which direction you want to be down and then you fall. If you're bad at picking directions, or switching them quickly enough, and you use it in a tight space, you'll hit a wall. But you'll still have "used" Gravitation. With Transformation, you "look" into Shadesmar. We know that part is easy; Shallan did it once by accident, and a second time having no clue what she was doing. But for it to be "useful"? You have to organize Shadesmar around yourself so that you're not flailing, find the Cognitive representation of the object you want to Soulcast, then convince it to accept your stormlight to change into whatever you want it to be. Significantly more complicated. I imagine that Transportation is even more complicated, since even Jasnah doesn't have much of a grasp on it. Same holds true for Abrasion. Lift is pretty good at sliding around on her butt, but according to Nalan, the Edgedancers basically figure-skated their way around battlefields. She's nowhere close. But it's not because she can't "make herself Awesome" it's just because she hasn't had as much practice at applying the Surge in that manner. 2. Eye color - I think, ultimately, that a full-fledged Radiant will have eyes the color of their respective gemstone. For evidence, we have the Radiants from the Starfalls vision, as well as Kaladin himself. However, while it's quite plausible that the idea of lighteyes as nobility stems from the fact that the Radiants children had light eyes, it's equally possible that it stems from the fact that the people who picked up Shardblades after the Recreance had their eyes lightened. This would explain why Moash's eyes are tan; his brown eyes simply became a light shade of their original color. It also explains why all the lighteyes' eyes are always described as "light green" or "light blue" or "light violet". The more interesting question concerns Shallan. Since she's a level ahead of Kaladin, she should have dark red or violet eyes at this point. It could be something as simple as the fact that we haven't seen her in the third person since her upleveling, and therefore there hasn't been anyone to mention the change. If so, we'll probably get a mention of it early in book 3. Or, it could be that she won't get there until her final Truth has been spoken, since for her especially, the Surgebinding is integral to her broken-ness. What about Jasnah though? My theory is that she hadn't upleveled much at all since her Bonding, and only got to level 3 at the instant of her assassination. I really don't think she could have had a Shardblade and still gotten herself cut up. So, we'll have to see what happens with her eyes as well.

I forget the author's name, but there was a book written a long time ago called "Hero with a thousand faces" that explores the common themes in all human myths/legends/stories/religions across all cultures and shows that they're all basically very very similar. That definitely extends to the sci-fi/fantasy genre. It's why everyone has shapechanging dragons, and immortal elves, and magic swords, and magical-mentors-that-disappear/die-at-critical-juncture-to-allow-main-character-to-grow-but-then-come-back....

I don't think any of the orders would HAVE to do anything that they truly thought would be against the greater good. In Kaladin's case, the reason he almost broke his bond is not simply because he (almost) failed to protect Elhokar; it was because he allowed his personal dislike for him to convince himself that it wouldn't really be that bad to let Moash assassinate him. He catches himself just in time, and swears to protect even those he hates - so long as it is right. That's an crucial caveat. If killing Elhokar was truly the right thing to do, a Windrunner would be able to do it. But it clearly was not in this case.

I will be SHOCKED (and disappointed to be honest) if Plate were somehow "made". It just doesn't fit with the rest of the package. The Nahel bond is something the spren create with humans, a way to emulate what Honor did with the Heralds but also a way for them to enter the physical realm. As the bond grows stronger the spren's presence grows stronger as well, until eventually they are able to manifest there physically in the ultimate form of what they tried to create - a Shardblade. The Plate is different. It is not a creation of the spren, we know that much. But look at how it acts and what it does - modern-day, gem-powered Plate basically gives its wearer the properties that a Radiant gets from holding Stormlight (strength, speed, toughness, etc). Instead of allowing them to heal, it simply absorbs any damage into itself; but when it cracks or breaks, it will heal itself so long as it has enough Light available in the gems. It's like the exoskeleton of a Radiant, if you will. So, my theory is that the Plate is a manifestation of a Radiant partly entering the cognitive realm; it's the physical expression of the concept of internal use of Stormlight in its highest form. I bet that a Radiant who manifests his Plate can hold Stormlight perfectly as well. I do have one bit of...evidence is too strong a word maybe. Support. In the Feverstone keep scene where the Windrunners and Stonewards abandon their Plate and Blades, Dalinar tries to stop and talk to one knight as they're walking away. But the knight acts like he doesn't see him. Maybe that's not a figure of speech - maybe by abandoning the Plate, the knights abandoned a part of their souls, and are therefore damaged, like someone that's been hemalurgically spiked but survived. So it wasn't just a betrayal of the Bond; it was, in a way, a mass suicide.

This. I think the Plate is the manifestation of the Radiant reaching the highest Ideal they are capable of, much like the Blade is the spren's ultimate manifestation in the physical Realm.

My guess is that Adolin will "get away with it" in the sense that he won't be discovered publicly as the killer. Dalinar/Shallan/Renarin/Ghostblods/whoever might figure it out though. My other guess though is that Adolin will have to acknowledge/admit the murder in order to level up in whatever order he ends up in. And my money is on Dustbringers.

Shallan has recently come to terms with 1) Jasnah's entrapment and execution of the street thugs, 2) killing her mother in self-defense, 3) poisoning and then strangling her father to protect her family. She's also killed Tyn and joined a homicidal secret society. She's the last person that should have a problem with what Adolin did. The person he needs to worry about is Dalinar....

Yeah, I get that it's some shade of blue, but it's hard to tell since the surgebinding chart is sort of....i don't know....textured? I got the sense that it was a blue/green color, but i don't really know. Maybe it's just me - I can easily picture the difference between ruby red and garnet/blood red, but with sapphire blue vs zircon blue.....my poor brain gets confused.

So, this isn't really important, but it's something that's been bugging me for a while: what color, exactly, are the zircons on Roshar? In reality they can be almost any color, but so can a lot of gems, especially sapphires. That being said, both sapphires and zircons are generally associated with the color blue. But there is Word of Brandon that for Stormlight purposes, the color of the gemstone is what's truly important. So, I'm imagining Rosharan sapphires as standard, run of the mill, blue. But zircons would have to be slightly different, the way that ruby and garnet are different. Thoughts?

WoB is that Honor, Cultivation and Odium are the three Shards on Roshar - there's no mystery "third" Shard in addition to Odium.

I've argued before that T and Company are misinterpreting the Nightwatcher's boon/curse; his super-intelligence day was not the capacity to save the world. Again, you only need to look at the Interlude to see this spelled out: he himself placed limits on what he's allowed to do when he's "really smart" because of the idiotic things that he's come up with (like asking half of Kharbranth to kill themselves based on the result on an IQ test). It's pretty obvious, then, that the motives/desires/goals of his "day of brilliance" are not trustworthy, regardless of how accurate the predictions are. By Brandon standards, the Interlude almost beats us over the head with this concept. At one point his aide wonders whether the IQ tests he writes for himself are accurate, since he's doing so well on an average day. T replies that the test is accurate; "you simply underestimate the capacity of the average man". I mean, really.....Brandon basically spells it out for us here. Whether T's "capacity" to save the world is his compassion or something else, it's obviously NOT his "day of brilliance".

We know that each book will have a flashback character and a focus on one of the ten orders, but there's no promises that the flashback character will be a member of that order. That being said, VERY high probability that Eshonai will become a Radiant. And since she's the Explorer, there's a very obvious order for her to go to, which conveniently enough, is unclaimed by any of our current likely PoV characters. So far we've had Windrunners and Lightweavers, and most likely will have Skybreakers with Szeth. Dalinar is a Bondsmith, Jasnah is an Elsecaller, Renarin a Truthwatcher and Lift an Edgedancer. Taln will be the Stonewards' representative obviously, which leaves only the Dustbringers and the Willshapers. I have a strong suspicion that Adolin will be the Dustbringer, which leaves Eshonai as the Willshaper - which is the perfect order for her character based on the Words of Radiance description of the order: a love of adventure and exploration and a large variety in the other characteristics of the members.

I think we have to give Brandon a little bit of wiggle room here. My take on Tearim wearing Gavilar's Plate is that it's a sign that Gavilar is being influenced by the Way of Kings and is starting to not rely/trust his Shards as much as he used to. There's no way to avoid the fact that he's dead - his Shardblade appeared, he carried the dark sphere, he told Szeth to give Dalinar the message from Way of Kings, his body was left behind and likely Soulcast into stone several days later, etc. And yes, he was prepared for an assassination attempt, as evidenced by his discussion with Szeth. That's why Tearim was standing behind him in Plate, and that's why he changed into it so quickly. Also, Jasnah probably spent more time walking around the palace than it seems - just because not a lot of lines of text get devoted to her walking around doesn't mean that the government headquarters of the biggest kingdom on Roshar is a small place. An out of the way room for meeting an assassin would have to be pretty far from both the feast area and the living quarters of the royal family.

That's a very good point - the main theme of the dream was warmth/sunlight!

I kind of felt it was the best of both worlds, to be honest. I personally felt that Jasnah was the most interesting character in the story so far, and identified with her a lot. So when the assassination scene happened, which I definitely did not expect, it really took me by surprise and hit me pretty hard. I actually had to take a bit of a break from reading to process it. I'm pretty sure I went through the 5 Stages of Grief (denial, anger, etc). Eventually I got to acceptance; Jasnah needed to leave in order for Shallan to develop at anything approaching a decent pace. That, or they'd have to have a serious falling out, which would have been pretty cool too. But anyway.... By the time the epilogue rolled around though, the reason for Jasnah's absence had gone away. Shallan was a big girl now, had completed Jasnah's quest, etc. And this opens up new possibilities - with Urithiru found and the Radiants refounded, Jasnah can focus on her own development, which is guaranteed to be an awesome story in its own right. Is her survival a bit deus ex machina? Of course. But c'mon, this is a fantasy novel. And crucially, this is a fantasy novel in which it has already been established that major stress tends to cause our characters to suddenly level-up. If anything, I found Szeth's survival to be far more disappointing than Jasnah's; when he lets Kaladin kill him, I thought "sweet! book three will be about the characters traveling to Shinovar to discover the mysteries of the Stone Shaman and the Honorblades, and Szeth's backstory will happen in flashbacks, and the two timelines will converge towards the end!" Alas, not to be - he gets saved by a minor character with a fabrial that apparently can now heal severed souls (?) and given a major artifact from another series. I found that development to be far more sloppy.

I think the scene of Shallan picking, on the spot, to use Sebarial despite Jasnah's comments on him being useless is a way for Brandon to show that Shallan is growing into her own, independent, strengths and talents, and they are not the same as Jasnah's. A major part of this book is the focus on Shallan's "growing up" so to speak, and part of growing up is learning that your "parents" aren't perfect. Jasnah might be a great scholar and philosopher, and is very good at influencing people in general, but she has a one-size-fits-all approach. Shallan, on the other hand, is very specific, and tailors her approach to everyone individually.

Actually, it looks a lot like a stick-figure drawing of the sun! And their polestone does happen to be a heliodor....