Robinski

On we go. I’m so glad I dived/dove back in. Love the epigraph – great questions and good answer. One quibble; grammatically, I don’t think ‘It is caused…’ is the appropriate response to a question posed as ‘why…’ Big game hunter – lol Quibbler No.2 – I don’t think the tracks are tear-stained, I think they are the tear stains. Just sounded off to me. “de’Eden” – syntax seems odd – no space, why the apostrophe? “There are some mathematical machines like what you speak of” – grammar, ‘that of which you speak’, or something more like that, I think. If it was Ori, I'd be like, whatever, but I expect better diction of Ril. “dealing with the fight and fight response” – this seems to be a redneck response. “Do you think you can come with us now?” – I ‘saw’ Ril look into Sam’s head, but did she actually do anything? I don’t think I saw that, so how is it any easier for him to leave? > Which then comes just after, but I wasn’t sure why she thought anything had changed just be her looking. “I wasn’t going to hurt him” – It wasn’t? By necessity, there is a lot of new information flowing in this chapter, that’s okay. I think it does tend to slow things down a bit, but I enjoy it well enough. For a lot of the chapter, Ori’s pov feels very light, I almost feel like I am, or should be, in Sam’s, as he is the one making discoveries. Good stuff. <R> p.s. -Does the worldbuilding work, is it too descriptive? - Yes, I think it works; no, not too descriptive. There is a great deal to learn about the D'verse, and if you don't start labelling it out, it will take too long.-Connection to the characters - I'm not the best judge, 'cause I'm already connected, but I think Or is spot on, the reveal of him enjoying teaching is very important; Rilan, clearly, is the caring one, but not slow to dish out some lip if it's deserved, spot on again; Sam is less frustrating so far than last time.-How is the arc of the chapter? - There's forward motion. I get a bit frustrated sometime with the feeling in certain circles that there needs to be tension and plot from the first sentence. I think there is enough tension between Sam and these strangers, and the strange land he's in, to carry this chapter with only the barest scintilla of actual plot (I won't say anymore, since I know where it's all going )

See, I got here in the end! Sorry for the delay, but I’m keen to start on the story. Always interesting to encounter a ‘new’ voice on RE, and I do think I’ll benefit from getting the full introduction to the character(s). “Words are my only inheritance. Words, and dust” – powerful line, I like the opening, I get a sense of a strong character who has suffered adversity in his life. Decent headlines. I read on to see that he’s questioning his situation; that’s good too, setting up internal tension. Capitalisation seems a bit random. It’s a pet hate of mine. I’m a firm believer in the more you capitalise, the more you dilute its effect and relevance. Sounds to me like ‘the Wounded River’ is the river’s name, so ‘River’ is part of the name, hence capitalise. However, I see no good reason to capitalise ‘master’, unless it’s part of his title when someone addresses the master, like ‘Hello, Master John’. More tension with his master, and I like seeing the magic has a cost, which you establish early on, to the point where it seems like the cost is enough that Rai is unwilling to pay it just to be able to see better. I like that. At this point, I like the mix of action and description. I get a good sense of the location, and you’ve used other senses than sight in respect of the dust, which is good. The usual grammar stuff, I won’t do Line-by-lines at this point, but the odd missing comma, repeated word occasionally. I’m quite enjoying the interplay between them. You’ve certainly shown without room for doubt that Rai has competence in this sort of thing and the vicar does not, also that the vicar is quite arrogant. One thing I would say at this point is that, while the opening is suitably active, it’s a bit generic. Being in a dusty, old temple, searching through corridors for something hidden smacks of dungeon-bashing in the classic form, so I’m hoping that this section is not all that long. I do think it’s well done though. “We’ve been digging through these useless tunnels for months now, and when we finally find what I’ve been searching for” – I’d like to have a bit better sense of how long they’ve been searching in the tunnels. I’m not sure how well it came out up to this point. It does feel long as an opening. I would suggest trying to cut it way down. The writing is quite dense and feels bit repetitive in places. I feel like there’s a lot of description of them looking at each other that does really add a lot. I think the story would benefit from getting to the point of this opening a fair deal quicker. The first time Rai looked for the sword that wasn’t there was good foreshadowing, I thought, but then he seems to keep doing it, to the point where I stopped believing it. There’s action and there’s agency in this first part. There are good character details and I get a good sense of their relationship. Going into a dungeon/crypt/basement is not the most original setting, but I thought you carried it fairly well. The real issue I think with this as an opening is the length. I think it’s way too long to hold the readers’ attention. Okay, you would tidy up all the grammar and typos, but my halfway in I was feeling that details were being repeated, and by the ¾ mark I was skimming to get to the resolution. I felt there were sections that were ‘over-written’ with too much detail and repeating certain beats that you’d played already, like reaching for the sword, for which once would have been enough, maybe twice, and you could cut a lot of the significant looks and details. I like the components, and I think you could quite easily get this down to 4,000 words and have a much tighter opening. Hope this is helpful. <R>

Hah - no idea, it's a kind of abstract idea of Moth's in the heat of the moment. Fair point. The intention really was to show her as narcissistic. Awesome! I'm so glad the characters are engaging people. It's probably the story that is more in need of eyes on it. To some extent, I was hoping to introduce the characters before the story really picked up, although it has 'started'. Thanks so much for reading.

Yes, I'm going to have to flag that better. A couple of lines should do it. In fact, in light of your comments and Mandamon's I'm going to can-of-worms the whole Grimes encounter with Moth and re-write it in Edit 2. At the end of the day, it's not that important, but the mechanics are necessary. I can re-write it more interesting, and tense. Thanks for the flag on this. In fact, it's a great opportunity to shows what Moth's goals, aims and aspirations are - which I totally missed first time around. Thanks everyone, really enthused to revise this now!

Hey, thanks for reading. I always look forward to your comments, which are often the most searching (so there's some trepidation in my anticipation!). Yikes - I had not even slightly thought of that . He does, sort of. I'll consider that. - banana: yeah, okay - fair point; - establishing the weekly visit on the train: yeah, it's a bit of a cheat, I'll think on that, but it's not the first call for some discussion between them; - condescension: yes again, this reference is too oblique, I agree. I think I'll just drop the whole thought; - talking in an hour: yeah, I think Moth's just trying to rationalise why she didn't speak to him. A little bit of unreliable narration, perhaps; - appled: yeah, I might drop that, or at least alter it. Great comments, I've got some editing to do there, but worse still, some thinking! Thanks, Man.

Thanks for the comments, Eagle - much appreciated. Responses below - lots of typos this time! Thanks for picking them. So glad you're enjoying it. Most of the material previously submitted here is behind us now, so I'm eager to move on and see what you guys think! Thanks again.

That's...... ludicrous, and utterly pointless. I would put that down too. That person's publisher / editor / agent let them down there, imho.

It's possible, I think, to have gore without violence. On that basis, I think 'G' would be more appropriate, personally. Good idea @Ernei.

Of course, that's what I missed, I think because I'm not 100% on what Sav is trying to achieve in the long term. Their sabotage of the canal is a pointer of course, but I'm not exactly sure what undermining (are they?) Ase's power grab is gaining them. Maybe I just need to keep reading!

I think I said something about not reading Seeds until it came out – pah! Chapter 1 “They watched the candle flame dwindle to a speck. The power plant couldn’t affect candles.” – Obvious, let the reader work that one out, it’s more satisfying for them. “With Sam’s remaining strength, he pushed her closer to the nearly extinct” – This feels out of POV to me. “Even the watch in his pocket was ticking slowly, wound down far faster than normal” – This is intriguing. Doubt I noticed it first time around, but this almost suggests that the effect is reducing potential energy, as in the coiled spring, which would be monumental, but actually, I guess it’s slowing the motion of the watch’s movement once the potential energy in the spring is released. Okay, back on track now, but I think it was the underlined bit above that through me. It seems to me inconsistent that the ‘effect’ would make something happen faster. “Ice crystals cracked on his neck, and around his eyelids” – Ooh, like this line, very effective I thought. “His aunt had put up with his anxiety for ten years” – I haven’t read the previous version, or the comments on this, but I’m aware this has been examined already however it seems like way more than ‘anxiety’, has no one diagnosed a condition in him? “His numbed fingers slid across her knitted shawl, down one arm, clutching.” – I feel like I want a description of the shawl being frozen solid, so that I know why he can’t get a grip of it. Chapter 2 “I have not time to teach a green majus how to use your song” – Given the significance of colour to the maji, it seems odd for Ori to use a colour in this way. “The man turned to one wooden wall of the alley.” – I do feel at this point that I’m missing blocking and description of surroundings. I guess that Sam would be unlikely to be taking in great detail and looking beyond the space between him and Ori, that would seem consistent, but when you say alley, I don’t or didn’t know I was in a built-up area, I was picturing countryside, as a default. “to the mouth of the alley” – Yeah, I would just like a few cues once Sam is in the Nether, like light levels, feeling enclosed by the alley walls, something like that. “slid down in a corner” – Yeah, if this is an alley, is it a dead end then? These spatial details are not important really; I don’t need a detailed run down of the alley’s layout, just enough to place myself in the world. You know I enjoyed this story before, and that I really like it. My memory of detail of stories is pretty poor, so reading again after maybe a couple of years, I’m only really remembering the broad strokes of the story, which is good for me! Anyway, I feel like this opening is tighter than before, and I enjoyed that. Happy to be back in Ori’s company again. <R> p.s. - I was fine with the epigraphs - worked for me. - Anxiety, I thought it worked, but I'm coming from a place of never really having experienced or dealt with anything like this personally. - Well, I'm already emotionally connected with Ori. As for Sam, I remember before being frustrated by his lack of agency as the story progressed, and commenting about it on a regular basis. That's what I'll be looking out for as I got forward. So far, however, so good.

Hey all, Thanks in anticipation for reading. I like these one line summaries some people are doing, so... As usual, if you are able to read, I'm just looking for any comments that occur to you. Best, Robinski

Cool. Comments. I enjoyed the first section more than the equivalent in the last version of the story. I felt it was more compact, and more effective for that. I was fine with the description and the amount detail on the dress and make-up of the two characters. I think it helps to build anticipation for the event, the amount of effort that goes into the preparation, but summarising from last time, without ‘all’ the dressmaking scenes. I also enjoyed the dialogue that Las and Esh shared. Having her as a qualified litigant at least puts them closer in social standing, if not close, I think it’s a major Improvement overall, and no doubt she has greater confidence in dealing with him as a result than in the previous version, which elevated the exchange, I thought. One thing about Sav’s first section with Ash’s brother-in-law being accompanied by the bodyguard confused me. I can’t remember at this point (WRS?) what Eal’s role in the plot is, when it’s Ash that Sav is (allegedly) serving and it’s Rir that they’re planning to ‘deal with’. Am I right in thinking that Sav had a plan for their glass all along in the previous version, yet in this version, they seem to realise what the bangle is for only at the moment of use. Seemed curious to me. And previously it had bodily fluid from Rir, didn’t it? But I didn’t see that transfer this time, because the glass was Sav’s, wasn’t it? Good chapter. I think it flows better than the previous coverage of these events (or the equivalent events). The only thing I was confused over was the bangle, and how it fitted in, which I had an understanding of previously, because it was played out how it had some of Rir’s blood on it, if I recall correctly. I don’t see the connection to him this time around. I enjoyed the tension though, and the intrigue, wheels within wheels, and that it is all building. <R>

Yup, I agree with Mandamon. My comments as follows. Great first line, it’s got me thinking ‘What the heck?’ I like some aspects of this interlude, but the interlude itself seems to steel the from the action scene, which was not yet resolved. There were parts in the first couple of pages when I started skipping a little for this reason, and yet there were notes and phrases that I enjoyed. The next section from page 4 to 5 tells me we are skipping ahead in the flashback (if that’s what it is, I need to read the notes again), okay it’s just a little, but I’m not that interested in this stuff, looking back when I know the ultimate outcome. I feel that I am not going to learn anything useful from this interlude. I don’t really follow the chapter. It’s another nice line to finish, bracketing with the first one, but I don’t understand what happened. I don’t mean how it happened, but what actually happened, so it’s a bit frustrating. Enjoyable in places but, given the choice, I'd be perfectly happy if this cropped up as two or three paragraphs of reminiscing in in the middle of another Ell and Sof chapter somewhere else. I’m just not convinced in deserves this amount of space. Looking forward to returning to the action. <R>

I've read the chapter, but I won't post comments unless you want them. I don't think there's anything 'sensitive' or insensitive in them.

Okay, this. This is why you should continue to associate with me (if you're still willing to). This is my main learning point here - the bit I wasn't seeing, or paying enough attention to. I believe I see it differently now. I'm going to re-read it, but I won't comment again.

I'm sorry @neongrey, I'm not getting across the point I'm trying to make here, but I'll stop trying at this point. And I don't want you to stop submitting on account off something I've not been able to get across. I'll stop commenting on your stuff.

Lol - I never doubted it would be complicated

This is fair comment, and that is sort of what I'm trying to do, I suppose. Yes, I am I suppose expecting that Esh, as the physically more imposing of the two, would have the strength to separate himself physically from Adri. Then again, I'm totally away that 'the big guy' is not necessarily the confident, assertive one in any situation, be it fictional or otherwise. I was bullied at primary school (age ~8/9). I'm 6 foot, not then obvs!! but I was taller than most and was bullied by a boy significantly shorter than me. I'm aware of this concept, and that is not the aspect of the exchange that led me to comment as I did originally. For me, it's purely how Esh speaks to Adri. Some examples: "Yes. And yet, you would have me trifle with her." - I read some anger in that, some aggression. I interpreted this as Adri not being afraid of Esh "You of all people should know better than to be so impulsive" - Adri is scolding Esh, it seemed to me, so not afraid of Adri's anger. "Stop." - Okay, this is perhaps an instance where, if Esh was confident enough to be more assertive, he would have said more to try and make Adri stop. "Esh will not permit it" - This sounds like a particularly strong thought from Esh, but I suppose it's only a thought and therefore perhaps hollow as a show of strength, compared to if he had said it. "'Isn't about future planning' indeed." - Another open scold from Esh, it seemed to me. "Esh allows" - He allows something of Adri, as if feeling his in control of that. The penultimate paragraph is a more overt sign of Adri bullying, maybe my reading of the whole scene is too literal, but this paragraph seems more directly indicative of harassment, to me.

Not exactly - I haven't expressed what I'm thinking well enough. I think it is a question of fine degrees, and that we are in the same zone. I don't think Adri is behaving appropriately and, on balance, my take-away is that Esh does not want the contact. It's the distinction between, um, maybe nuisance/inconvenience and harassment that I was toiling with and trying (and failing) to get that across. Does Esh want the contact? No. Is Adri being a pest? Yes. Is Esh disturbed by the contact? Yes, on some level, and that is where my doubts lie, the level of Esh's disturbance and from that, whether harassment was being conveyed by the scene. I didn't get the sense that Esh's reaction was as strong as say fearing the contact, or being repulsed by it. He doesn't appear to be afraid of Adri, so would he not have sufficient confidence in his own strength to move away? I think that's what I'm trying to get at. Esh seems to be a strong enough character that he would move away from Adri in that moment, or take his hand away, and would not move toward Adri in the first place if proximity was an issue. If he's not close enough to Adri, Adri can't touch him (without moving towards him). I went in search of a definition of harassment and found "aggressive pressure or intimidation" from a straight G**gle search. I guess maybe I can see intimidation in Adri's actions, but I'm not sure it seemed conscious on Adri's part. Then the Free Dictionary says "the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of oneparty or a group, including threats and demands". This I can see in Adri's actions towards Esh, continued (you've said that this is a long-term tendency in Adri); unwanted (yes, I get that from the scene - but I think I would have preferred it to be stressed just a tiny bit more, fine degrees as I mentioned, for me anyway); and annoying (yes, to a degree, but again, I think I would have read the scene better, more clearly, if the flags had been slightly strengthened, maybe?) I've gone back again to look at the section and this line stood out. "You're too-- openly familiar in front of the help." I read this as being capable of being interpreted in different ways. If Esh wants no contact at all, why differentiate with familiarity being in front of the help, why not just say, 'You're too familiar'? It almost implies that he thinks there is a time for familiarity between them, but then maybe I'm reading 'familiarity' wrongly now too. That's the very heart of my point, I think. They almost talk as if equal and I'm not seeing in Esh whatever emotion (fear, lack of self-confidence) it is that stops Esh from moving away from Adri and telling him, clearly, to stop. Sorry to pick on that this, but I don't want to fail in getting my point across here, and you think I'm some sort of insensitive lug. I think it's the finest of details that is tripping me up in this scene.

I think the trick is balance, definitely. I use a mixture and, simply, if I don't like the sound of it because it comes over as @neongrey describes, then I'll drop it for 'said'. I'm afraid it's down to judgement, and there are no rules, that's why writing is so hard/rewarding I'm interested by what your editor said. Now then, and I mean no offence whatever but, did I understand you correctly that NSP is rooted in publishing romances before and is only more recently branching into other genres (I feel I can remember you saying that one time)? I wonder if said-bookisms are more prevalent in the romance genre?

Comments on Chapter 9. Err, my only comment – that was, give or take some minor refinement, pretty much perfect for me. Lovely notes of sibling tension, and yet interspersed with obvious if unspoken respect and, although neither might be willing to admit it or even recognise it, love. <R>

Don't worry about it, not necessary for my story, I think. I am trying to train myself to do it all the time, so I don't have to think about it. The handy thing is, Quirk and Moth are 'real' words of course, so G**gling them would probably be pretty much useless, unless one searched for "Quirk and Moth" which might throw this up..., oh, darn

The first bit I did know, but stuck with the black for simplicity and general effect. The second bit, I kind of suspected, but I am really grateful for your confirmation (sorry, I think I that might be a Catholic pun ). One of two others have quite rightly called out some doubts about M's situation, why she is in the convent, etc. I think I might add some background to this, but I need to research a little what her status might be. Thanks! Yeah, the thing is, I don't think this actually is in character for M, so I'm 90% going to take it out in Edit 2. She's angry, spiteful, frustrated and unpredictable, but towards her own aunt, this isn't the right emotion. She will react here, but not like this. There is a time check. Chapters 2 and 3 overlap somewhere, but M. need longer to go through these scenes then get into town. Thanks for the typos, fixed now. I'm so glad you are enjoying the android(s), I don't think they/it are/is anyone else's favourite character. You may be pleased to know that there are androids throughout, and they play a significant role in the story. Please, please, please tell me that 'adorable;' wasn't a typo, but if it was, I don't care - you should patent that, what a glorious word! (I've never heard it before). Thanks so much for reading, I really needed your perspective on M - really helpful. <R>

My impression of them is that they are competent, for various reasons. (1) They are a spy / agent in a foreign country and have not been caught and executed - this makes me think half-decent spy; (2) They have gone into the presence of a vicious mob boss and sparred with him (verbally) without being executed, therefore clearly they have his 'trust' and or respect (to some degree), so he seems to think they are competent (probably?); (3) They have done jewellery stuff competently and attracts high-profile customers, so they respect their ability as a jeweller - so they must have good judgement professionally and in business (or am I stretching now?) Mmm, I'm not sure we've seen them suffer as a result of any of the decisions they've made. I don't feel I've seen them do anything that was especially impulsive. They were already in the boss's company, the Lady came to them, as did Kath.

So, having re-read Chp. 5r1, I see also certain things that led to me questioning the harassment thing. "He moves to stand behind Adri, looking at their distorted reflections in the window" - Esh moving into close proximity to Adri seems to me inconsistent with him having a 'fear' of intimacy or inappropriate / unwanted contact. "He runs his tongue against the inside of his lower lip, tasting the memory of rust from his interventions" - This seemed to me a bit suggestive. I guess that was me projecting, but still, he's standing beside Adri a 'licking his lips'. He's also recalling defending Adri, physically it appears, which suggests a significant degree of attachment, albeit in the past. And then this "There was a time when that touch would have been welcome, even mutual" - clearly indicating previous intimacy between the two, I thought. I thought that this pushed against the harassment thing, although not necessarily disproving it. "Tell me you're not thinking of the look on Rien's face. Thought you'd want to thank me for that one." He does smile now" - Here is an instance where Adri, clearly, seems to be satisfied (if not pleased) with what they've achieved, specifically, placing Esh with Ilu - I thought. Also, it seems to me that Adri suggests that Esh should be satisfied (maybe not pleased), with the position that he has with Ilu. Maybe they are doing a dirty job that must be done, but that they are not enjoying, still that need not mean that they can't be pleased with the progress they have made, which was the impression I was getting from Adri. To me, the tone of their exchange, and the way that Esh speaks to Adri, suggests that Esh considers them to be familiar. Esh does not behave or speak as if he considers himself subservient to Adri, neither does he seems to fear Adri. On that basis, when I read "He reaches out, lightly setting his hand atop Esh's" - I think something like, 'Well, Esh hasn't taken his hand away, which I think he would be comfortable enough doing because of the way he speaks to Adri. Because of the lingering memory I have of some earlier time when they were familiar, I don't tend to think of this contact as harassment, because Esh has stood up to Adri verbally, so why not do so physically and take his hand away, if the contact is unwanted? In relation to the point about them being pleased, okay, Esh clearly is nowhere near being pleased, but Adri jokes and smiles, coming over as satisfied and speaking about their that are going there way and falling into place. He talks about them (or Esh) taking satisfaction from the responses of others to certain outcomes. These are the cues that lead me to thinking that Adri at least might be pleased with how things are going. "but his hand remains against the window beneath Adrichel's" - Their hands have been in contact for a long time now; if this is harassment, and bearing in mind how Esh addresses Adri, how can he tolerate the contact for so long if it is unwanted? So it must not be, entirely, even if Esh does not admit it. This is my thought process. Then you come right out and state that Esh thinks Adri is pleased > "no hiding how pleased Adrichel had been by it" - Clearly, Esh knows Adri well enough that I should believe his assessment that Adri is pleased. So, yes, there is nothing to suggest that Esh is pleased, I 'misspoke' there, but my impression that Adri is pleased, which is supported - I think, must have spilled over into me bringing Esh into the comment, on the that he didn't repel or seem particularly to be repelled by, Adri.