LiquidBlue

I must have missed something here. I know that cognitive shadows, even ones attached to the physical realm, find world hopping difficult or impossible, but I hadn't heard the same of a nahel bond.

Yeah, I was being a little cagey with my words there. We have evidence that some shards have at least somewhat altered the humans on their planets, but Scadrial is the only current explicit example of de novo human creation. I justified my wording by thinking that Ruin and Preservation had to have made more than ONE person (so cases not case )

I thought for a while that timbre was a cognitive shadow of Eshonai, and that she would be returning in the future as a good fused, but by the end of the book I concluded that it is a KR spren that was original trying to form the nahel bond with Eshonai, and was rescued by Venli after her death. Also isn't interesting that a spren who starts the bonding process is left helpless on the physical realm if their potential partner dies. We saw the same thing with the cryptic that was trying to bond to Elhokar.

Well, in some cases at least they were created by the shards de novo based off the yolen pattern.

Pure tin and iron have different allotropes which means that they are elementally pure but can exhibit different physical, chemical, and magnetic properties[1]. Do allotropes have allomatic or ferchemical significance? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotropy#Metals

Can a misting burn gold-metal alloys of their metal? For example, can a gold misting burn malatium?

I like this line of thought. The key is to modify the effects of the allomatic metals. Burning spren seems like the right track, but not entirely. We know of 4 things can be burned, plain metal with an effect determined by the type of metal, feruchemically invested metal with an effect that releases an amplified amount of the invested effect, hemalurigical spikes with the effect of permanently grafting the hemalurgical charge to the spirit web (WoB only), and god metals which are the physical manifestation of a shard. I'm am not sure what it would mean to burn a spren. Spren are cognitive beings, and we have not seen what it would mean to allomatically burn a cognitive entity. (Although this might be related to burning a coppermind, we still don't know what happens there either). Would burning a spren trapped in an allomatic metal be like burning a hemalugical spike? I think that what needs to be done instead is somehow condense physical manifestation of the spren into solid form. This could then be burned directly(maybe) or alloyed with an allomatic metal. We actually have some evidence that this is possible -- shard blades. I wonder if there is some process that could condense other types of spren, such as rotspren or flamespren? The other path is to give the metal some sort of invested charge. Maybe fabrial science will advance to accomplish this. This ties with one of my privately held theories. I think that mistings can burn the gold-metal alloy of their allomatic metal. For example, there isn't a separate malatium misting, but rather, a gold misting is able to burn malatium. Malatium isn't a new allomatic metal, it is instead gold with a modified effect. I like how this simplifies the metallic arts, reducing the proliferation of different types of mistings. (If the old theory that atium is actually atium-electrum was true, this would mean that Final Empire seers were really electrum mistings.) ------------------------------ I just realized that I missed the target again. I became fascinated by how allomancy might be made more diverse or duplicate some of the effect of surgebinding, but I didn't answer the question, can surgebinding be powered by the metallic arts. Maybe... here's my model: In Surgebinding, the surgebinder absorbs and holds stormlight from the environment, and then filters it through one of the surges producing an effect. In allomancy, the allomancer burns a metal which has the effect of drawing power from preservation, filtering it through the metal producing an effect. In feruchemy, the feruchemist weakens one of their attributes storing the excess in a metalmind. Later that excess can be drawn out again, strengthening that same attribute. In hemalurgy, metallic spikes are precisely and purposefully driven through the body of one person ripping away part of their spiritweb, the spike may then be implanted into another person adding that stolen piece to the other's spirit web. Can we replace absorbing stromlight from the environment with something from the metallic arts? (power surgebinding with the metallic arts) Allomancy: Allomatic effect is determined by the metal burned. Options here include somehow finding a metal that will generate stormlight when burned (perhaps some sort of nicrosil mind), or finding/creating metals that will mimic surgebinding effects (perhaps by physically condensing spren). In neither case is surgebinding directly powered by allomancy. The first is indirectly powering it, and in the second it is mimicking surgebinding. Feruchemy: May be possible to store surgebinding strength in a nicrosilmind. Perhaps when it is tapped and the surgebinding strength/ability is increased this will result in more efficient/powerful surgebinding. In this case we might be able to consider the more efficient/powerful surgebinding effect to be partially powered by feruchemy, but some stormlight will still be necessary. Hemalurgy: This is very speculative, but perhaps hemalurgical corruption of the spirit web can be deliberately used. Use hemalurgy to steal someone's allomancy, implant the spike so that the allomancy fragment is in some sense stuck inside another person's surgebinding ability. When the recipient tries to use the hemalurgically granted allomancy, the released investiture gets diverted to the surgebinding. I think that this is impossible to achieve deliberately. I think that such corruptions are possible, and probably why hemalurgy requires skill and understanding, imprecise hemalurgical placement results in non-functional, nonsense corruptions. The term sDNA is even suggestive of this.

I had the same image. Industrial farming practices with immediate consumption seems grotesque. I've been working various scenarios out, and one seized my attention, and leads to a question for Brandon. If a dysian amian has access to feruchemical abilities, do they apply to all of its constituent hordelings? I feel that the answer is yes, the feruchemical ability is tied to the spirit web, and is presumably shared by the entire horde. This isn't being used in south scandrial, but a single dysian amian may be able to consume and store in bendalloy metal minds vast amounts of food.

Maybe bendalloy coins do show up in Bands of Morning, but I don't remember them. Surely the south scandrian expeditions traveled with bendalloy minds filled with food and water. Their ships just barely fly, they really don't have any room for supplies of food and water. Expanding on this... If there are enough people capable of filling unsealed bendalloy minds, a significant portion of south scandrian nutrition might come from bendalloy coins. A large challenge with getting food to people is both preserving it and transporting it. Feruchemical bendalloy solves these problems. With it, food can be preserved indefinitely, and transportation is both logistically easier and time insensitive.The gains from preventing spoilage may make up for the additional cost of bendalloy. It seems like they have already established a system than can produce filled Feruchemical bronze medallions for the population, they might be able to create a similar system to fill Feruchemical bendalloy medallions. Feruchemical coins may be South Scandrian currency.

To go back and answer the original question. I think that we have seen one particular way that surgebinding could be powered by the metallic arts. The key is the ability Lift has to convert food to stormlight. If Lift had the abilities of a bendalloy twinborn, she could take the nearly infinite caloric energy available to her and convert it to stormlight. As an aside, Lift as a bendalloy twinborn would be the perfect fit. She could eat as much as she wanted without having to stop because she became full. She would never have to be hungry, and would always have stormlight available to power her surges. Wayne has shown how powerful bendalloy bubbles are for forcing one-on-one melee combat, and a bendalloy bubble is a perfect complement to battle field medicine. Lift would be able to effectively instantly heal other people and enjoy an almost perfect defense while doing so. Sorry... Lift grew on me during edgedancer, and I am now imagining what an edgedancer slider with essentially infinite stormlight could do.

I am sure this has been noticed before, but it just struck me. Since learning that Hoid uses a feruchemical trick to know where interesting things are happening, I assumed that Hoid is a feruchemist. If he also used the bead to become a mistborn, then he would be as powerful as The Lord Ruler. I've never really considered Hoid to be a magical powerhouse before. I guess because he never really shows it. As far as I can recall the only magical abilities he has shown are lightweaving, emotional allomancy, ability to use perpendicularities(which may not be a special ability, nut just require the right knowledge), and an off camera feruchemical "trick". Given how old and well traveled, as well as he observed penchant for collecting various bits of investiture, it shouldn't be surprising that he has amassed an amazing amount of power.

What would the death star look like in the CR? As it moves it moves to different parts of the galaxy?

Yes... Proofreading is good. I meant to ask specifically about wrapping in aluminum foil.

Would wrapping a hemalurgical spike in aluminum foil affect the decay it experiences outside of the body? Would it slow the decay? (I really don't expect the answer to be yes, but aluminum has interesting interactions. Besides, it has the funny meta symbology of wrapping leftovers for latter.)

@8bitBob, I consider that a great overview of the current evidence. It is pretty much my own thinking, but with a much greater amount of detail.

So I have been a little bit confused ever since I read Bands of Morning regarding south scadrian medallions. My understanding is they work by being a combination of an unkeyed nicrosil mind that has stored inside of it a feruchemical ability and a matched unkeyed metalmind. So far so good. The nicrosil part of the medallion gives the feruchemical ability, and the other metal provides a matched metalmind which may be filled with a useful attribute. So my confusion and question is this: What makes the nicrosil metalmind unique? Why can a person tap an unkeyed nicrosilmind, but must have the appropriate feruchemical ability to use the other metalminds? Thanks.

Thanks for the WOB. Although the situation isn't exactly the same, I feel that it is pretty convincing. Allomancers being being able to burn unlocked metal minds really isn't overpowering. They are many orders of magnitude less powerful than a compounding twin-born. It just means that instead of a single allomatic effect, misting are able to produce two allomatic effects. The second of which requires a resource many times harder to obtain than regular metal. The gnats still kind of lose out. I don't know if it is possible to produce an unsealed identity metalmind. Does it even make sense? While every other misting gets a second allomatic power, the poor aluminum gnat is likely the only one for which an unsealed metalmind is impossible. The duraluminium gnat is in only a slightly better situation. Unkeyed connection can be useful, but not terribly flashy (Perhaps a duraluminium gnat on Sel with connection metalminds might actually be fairly powerful if a duralumin flare of connection allows access to the local magic systems)

Welltall, I can see where you are coming from. We have only ever seen feruchemists and ferrings have the ability to use or burn metalminds; and perhaps only they are able to properly process the feruchemical traits released by allomatically burning a metalmind. However, I still think that this theory may prove valid. When a metal is burned, the feruchemical traits released are not coming from tapping metalmind charges, but because the feruchemical charges overwrite the normal allomatic effect of the metal. It is allomancy, but with a non-standard effect. I suggest that the ability to tap the metalmind is not a requirement to burn it, if the the feruchemical charge is not locked to a particular individual. In the case of the unsealed metal mind, the feruchemical charge is simply overwritting the normal allomatic effect and there is no identity lock to prevent it from being burned.

The theory is straight forward. An allomancer can burn an unsealed/indentitiless metalmind that corresponds to a metal that they can burn regardless of any feruchemical ability. In support of this, I point out that Vin could sense Sazed's metalminds as if they were another allomatic reserve, but she was unable to burn them. I think that this was because the metalminds were locked to Sazed's identity. However the unsealed metalminds by the south scandrialians can be used by any one with the ability to use them. This, I believe, includes allomancers. This means that Wax would be able to burn steel metalminds filled with physical speed,Wayne would be able to burn bendalloy metalminds filled with nutrition. and Marasi would be able to burn cadmium metalminds filled with breath. This opens up some intriguing possibilities as the medallions and their manufacture spread to the north.

Can a gold misting burn malatium? Or more generally, can a misting burn the atium alloy of the metal that they burn?

That WoB probably answers my question then. I'll try to find it. If I understand correctly, Nightblood would grant additional powers (apparently not surges) to someone he is bonded to on Roshar. These would be powers in additional to his normal power. This is what I am trying to get to with my question. I want it confirmed if a non-scandriallian god-metal can be used in allomancy/feruchemy. I know that a shardblade is probably way too invested to work as a metalmind, but I think that a feruchemist can still sense if a metal itself can be used feruchemically, even if that particular piece of metal has no space available to be actually used as a metalmind.

Yes, I agree that it would be very risky. Not only because you would be risking physical injury, but because you would be duraluminium flaring a metal with an unknown effect. On the other hand, the other 2 god-metals have really nice allomatic effects, so it might be worth the gamble. I included pewter not just for enhanced healing but also for the enhanced physical toughness and resilience. The are some additional things that could be done to help protect the mistborn or make the procedure safer, but the cost of making it more complicated and harder to accomplish. Feruchemical gold is the obvious first one. I think that Feruchemical zinc would also be helpful, especially if the mistborn had to jump on the ettmetal reserve as soon as it appeared. If we really want to go crazy with the feruchemy, Feruchemical chromium seems like a good fit as well. Turning back to allomancy. I think that the expanded mental capabilities and understanding provided by burning atium would be very helpful. But mistborn have passed into history. Atium is only legend. Yes, I really should have posted to that thread. It is really recent. I thought about this a little before posting my first message. I wondered if the mistborn could simply burn the ettmetal after letting it react with something first. Unfortunately, I decided that this wouldn't work. The metallic arts seem to depend on the metallic structure of the metals involved. Harmonium oxide or Harmonium carbonate doesn't have that structure... However, this did lead to another idea that I am very excited about. The reactivity of Harmonium is modeled after the alkali metals. In fact, there is good evidence that it is an alkali metal that is made up of investiture mimicking normal subatomic particles. Here is the exciting part, alloys of alkali metals are not as reactive as the alkali metals themselves, and alloys are a foundational principle of the metallic arts. So instead of focussing on the allomancy/feruchemy of ettmetal itself. It should be much easier in universe to explore the allomatic/feruchemical properties of the harmonium alloys.

There has been speculation that Harmony purposefully made ettmetal so reactive so that it could not be easily used in the traditional manner by practitioners of the metallic arts. That really shouldn't stop a creative and determined person, so I have be trying to think of ways that a allomancer could burn Ettmetal. I think that I have a way. First it would have to be a mistborn. We don't know if there are ettmetal mistings, and if there are, they would not have the ability to pull off the following procedure. Second, I started from the thought of introducing the ettmetal into the body surrounded by another metal. The allomancer would burn through the protective shell first, and then start to burn the ettmetal when it became available. This might be all that it is necessary to burn ettmetal. However, given that it is so reactive, the allomancer may not be able to burn it fast enough, or may not have fast enough reflexes to start it burning when it becomes available, so i've added several more steps. Third, make the surrounding metal thinner specifically in a small area. This will expose the ettmetal, but reduce the area that might chemically react with the body. Fourth, flare pewter. The will provide the health and physical resilience to resist the damage done by the reacting ettmetal. Fifth, burn duraluminium. This will greatly enhance the protective effect of pewter, but also burn through the ettmetal faster. Hopefully burning through it faster than it reacts with the body. So to restate the procedure, the mistborn would (1) Swallow ettmetal that has been enclosed in a protective coating of another allomatic metal. (2) Start flaring pewter. (3) Start burning the protective shell. (4) Start burning duraluminium. (5) Burn the ettmetal reserve as soon as it appears. Thoughts?

If a Feruchemist were to touch a shardblade would it feel like a valid target for a metalmind even if they couldn't store to it or tap it? If a feruchemist were to become a Knight Radiant could they store to or tap their shardblade?

Is it possible to form a Nahel bond with Nightblood?