LiquidBlue

Allomancy seems to use the metals for two purposes. The first is to shape it for a purpose. The second is to somehow access investiture provided by Preservation. The process seems to be indivisible and so it would not be possible to divert it power surges. There are a couple of possibilities that might allow a mistborn to power the surges provided by the Nahel bond. 1) A mistborn that acquires a Nahel bond with a spren might notice that they have additional reservoirs. These would be the surges. Basically the bond allows investiture to be shaped, and the mechanics of a mistborn presents this as an additional reservoir. In this case it is not the metal that permits access to the investiture, but it is a natural ability of the mistborn, they just can't draw investiture unless there is a valid outlet. 2) Metal burning is required not only to shape and direct the investiture, but mistborn also cannot draw from Preservation without burning a metal. In this case, perhaps they could injest a reshaped shardblade and burn bits of it. I wonder if there would be any affect on the spren in this case I wonder what would happen if a mistborn tried to burn a dead shardblade.

Thanks for the WoB. So for surges that don't seem to consume stormlight but persist until the stormlight has leaked away would the surge remain until the the breath was recovered?

Since the appearnace in WOR of Vasher and Nightblood. Both of whom seem to be able to do a straightforward substitution of Stormlight for breath, I have wondered about the opposite. What if you fueled surgebinding with breath. I think that they are very similar, a big difference is that breath is sticky and stormlight leaks. To build upon this I imagine that a lashing or illusion, which endures until all of the stormlight has leaked away, if fueled by breath would remain until the breath was recovered. Other types of surgebinding such as soulcasting or regrowth which used up the stormlight would likely use up the breath as well. (Soulcasting has the additional complication that it involves the use of a focus)

I've already decided that if I get the chance to ask Brandon a question that I ask if a Forger who previously held a shardblade but gave it up could create an essence mark where they still had the blade. Bloodsealing would seem to be the appropriate art. I wonder how it works.The skeletons of the bloodsealers seem similar to awakening. I wonder if a sufficiently skilled bloodsealer with access to the blood of a sufficient number of people could affect objects in a manner similar to an Awakener. I think that this just limits the amount of time such a forgery would endure. There would have to have been some possibility that the object might have been awakened in the past. I believe that all forgeries are invested objects. The seal not only describes the change to be made, but the structure of the seal shapes the Dor necessary for the change to happen. Are there any thoughts or comments about the ability of a Forger to change the command or control of an awakened object?

This theory is straight forward. Forgery realizes possible alternate histories. For example, if an artist once lived nearby, it is possible that perhaps they had painted a wall and thus a forger could forger a painting on the wall. In the presence of Awakeners, reasonable and possible alternate histories include the object being awakened. Therefore the knowledgeable Forger should be able to Forge the effects of awakening on an object. It is not clear what exactly a breath is; although it seems to be a piece of the soul. Thus it seems that such a forgery could not permanent, but would fade and be rejected as all soul forgeries are. The biggest question that remains is related to the nature of a breath. If breath is simple investiture, then forgery should be able to replicate the effects with no problem. If, however, breath is fragments of souls, it does not seem reasonable that forgery could create even temporarily such soul fragments. In this case, the theory then becomes, a Forger can take an awakened object and forge a different awakened object - either changing the command or perhaps changing who is in control.

In general knowing the history of an object is required before it can be forged into something else. However I think that this is a function of the difficulty of the forgery itself. During her escape, Shai used the same stamp on multiple different objects. That is, she had a stamp that would cause a wooden object to rot and weaken. In this case she didn't have to expressly describe how a particular bed or door would have been neglected. It was a little bit more general. I am sure that it helped that both objects were property of the palace and supposedly the responsibility of many of the same people for maintenance. I started this thread wondering if Forgery could be used to "game" the system, but aside from any questions about the ability for Forgery to affect Investiture or Spiritual qualities, I now recognize that there is another large limitation. Forgery is geographically limited, Seals lose their power with distance from MaiPon. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=949#7 So even if a forger could gain sufficient familiarity with Hemalurgy, or a ShardBlade, (maybe even with Lerasium), a soulstamp based on this knowledge would only work in the area near MaiPon unless there was some way to get around the geographic limit.

So this is from the Forgery and Hemalurgy Thread: "If Shai were to gain a Shardblade, but then gave it up, could she create an essence mark that represented the history where she still had the blade? If she then applied the essence mark could she summon the Shardblade or a copy of it?"

I don't think that Forging could get all the same effects at a lower cost. I was merely wondering out loud if it was possible for Forging to temporarily copy the effects of Hemalurgy. I don't think that Forging could directly copy other types of magic, but that Forging the effects of Hemalurgy might grant access to those other types of magic. Thus it is still Hemalurgy which is such a powerfully disruptive magic. In fact, I think that I'll post this question to Brandon if I get the chance: "Suppose that a Forger such as Shai received a Shardblade. Could she then give away or lose the blade, but create an essence mark where she still possesed it. If she then applied the essence mark would she have access to the blade or a copy of it for the duration of the seal?" I think that the answer to the question would be quite revealing. If Forging is limited by alternate histories, rather than an inability to to affect invesittures or the spiritual realm, such an alternate history should be fairly simple to effect.

I think that it is entirely reasonable that changes to the spiritual aspect is beyond the power of forgery. But I think that the clearly established limits of forgery already explain why it wouldn't be possible to forge oneself into a Shard or with the power of TLR. A Forgery can only make manifest an alternate history, and the more likely that alternate history the easier the forgery takes and the longer it lasts. There isn't an alternate history where one could have become a shard or TLR. However, becoming a Dhakor Monk might be within the realm of alternate history possibility. Although I guess even the novella hints at the limits of forgery. Shai had to recreate the mind of the Emperor, she or the reforgers could not simply apply a change to his history such that he was not injured in the attack. (Which should be relatively likely) What does this mean? How exactly does forgery work and what then are its limits?

Thank you for your replies, and knowledge. From what I understand, the cognitive realm should be able to make changes to the spiritual realm just as it changes the spiritual realm. But then again, perhaps the three realms are not on such an equal footing. It certainly seems reasonable that there should be some sort of conservation law in effect; however, the interplay of Allomancy and Feruchemy means that this might not be the case. In my original post, I was using Hemalurgy as the means that the forger uses to access an alternate history where they gain otherwise genetic magical aptitudes. As an aside, I know that travel to the cognitive realm is possible, but is travel to the spiritual realm possible as well? Familiarity and understanding is essential for making a forgery, thus in order to forge spiritual aspects maybe travel to the spiritual realm would be helpful. Confining ourselves to Sel, I don't think that the process of becoming a Dhakor monk requires a special birth right as is required of Elantrians. So conceivably, Shai in some alternate history could have under gone the process to become a Dhakor monk. If so, could she create an essence mark that would give her this transformation?

Forgery can be used to change an object by overwriting the history of an object. This can be used, for example, to give a person skills and physical attributes that they do not otherwise have. It seems that aptitude with magic systems in the Cosmere is almost entirely a matter of genetics. So it does not seem reasonable that such aptitude could be granted through Forgery - there isn't an alternate history that would change genetics; howeve,, might Hemalurgy provide the trick? Hemalurgy can be used to transfer magical aptitude from one individual to another. This is the type of alternate history that could be reasonably forged. For example, if Shai found herself on Scadrial, could she make an essence mark that gave her the history of having been transformed into a Steel Inquisitor? From there, with experience and exposure to other magical systems, could she forge into herself additional hemalurgically transfered abilities? I guess that this could also be extended to inanimate objects. Could she for example Forge a metal spike into a Hemalurgical Spike? Could she forge an empty metal mind into a full one? Could she Forge an Awakened object? I think the the biggest problem with this, is that making changes to the "soul" of an item or person are resisted, and ultimately non-permanent. Given the close link that magical aptitude has with the spiritual essence of a person, trying to effect such changes through forgery may be resisted or even impossible.