MagicMaggot

Not disagreeing with any of that. I was actually satsified with the book (within my expectations), though not without my own criticisms, and do find it kind of funny when people with a worse view of the book than I do like the parts I disliked, while being very critical of things I found worked great. I'm not saying it's all just a matter of taste, though that will play into it, and I'm not surprised that the dislike comes before its justification, but I do find the spread impressive here. And yeah, it's a bit of a jump from that to "those probably weren't the main reasons for the reaction to the book", but not a wholly implausible one, I think.

I agree that this is actually mostly doable, leaving aside epilogue chapters and for Dalinar everything that comes after he gets back to the tower. There is very little that is cross-referenced, though there might be some vague spoilers about the results of the other arcs. I'm not about to recommend it, but I'd actually be curious if doing it like that was a satsfying reading experience. I can see the many, many changes of perspectives taking away from the focus of the story, and since they aren't really connected as much that might in some sense feel unnecessary. Though I do think there are thematic throughlines between the perspectives that are meant to go together, and what Adolin says about oaths in one chapter, can be applied to what happens in the next Dalinar chapter, for example.

I have to say, looking at the criticisms, I am a bit fascinated by how varied - and contradictory - from people who weren't happy with the book are. For example I've heard a lot of "the spiritual realm stuff felt flat, because the characters were doing so little and just watching exposition", while here we have the opposite complaint, or "everything was so slow and boring, except Sigzil and Adolin", when here we single them out as uninteresting. And there are people who seem very passionate about hating Dalinar's big decision, while here it is lauded as one of the positives that get lost under the muck. That kinda reinforces my belief that this middle-of-the-series setup-book (which seems pretty much unavoidable in any long-running series) never had a chance of getting a very favourable reception. I'm not saying that the criticisms are wrong (though I guess one will have to pick a team on the contradictory ones or go up one meta-level in the criticism), and there are likely some that most people will agree with (using the therapist-term seems to be pretty universally be seen as something between unneccessary and harmful, I guess) but I don't really think most of them hit why the book didn't land. And as others have said before, I think it's mainly because it was all about getting the plot to its destination. And that destination was a deliberate low point, not a high point, so "worried, but vaguely hopeful" was probably the best that could be done here. Because, he thought, this is where the journey has brought me. The oath wasn’t journey without destination. And today … today was about where he’d arrived, and how the journey had prepared him. The journey did not prepare the characters for a win against a god, only for being ready to flip the board. Rarely, the wise will also seek—in loss—to flip the board and scatter the pieces. But if you do this, it is likely the last time you will play. This also is not an adage for towers.

Let's just say I'd be very interested to see an "I, CULTIVATION, MOTHER OF THE WORLD"-sequence sooner or later... I don't really think that she planned out the details for the Night of Sorrows. She probably saw a good chance Dalinar would end up with Honor (after which his predictability would probably go down), and she didn't really care that much about the contest otherwise. What we saw her do was mostly cultivating people of talent, which fits her Shard's intent. What we haven't really seen her do is puppeteering and micromanaging the world, even though she has capable forces to command on short notice, as we saw with Karbranth. Of course, with above-average divine precognition we can't really rule out some long-term 10D-chess-masterminding going on here, but let's be honest, the original vessels in general don't have a great track-record in their long-term planning (I guess Leras' plan kind of worked out, after controlling conditions for 1000s of years?), and are often dominated by their shards. So Cultivation being more preoccupied with cultivating her people and projects than ruling from the shadows seems like it would fit the pattern. And I don't think Gav was one of those. Also... that's not really where I'd personally like to see Cultivation's successes. While the menfolk were playing at war, cultivation had millenia of time to do her own things on Roshar without drawing much attention from anyone. She didn't make great power investments like Heralds or Unmade (except the Nightwatcher, I guess?), so she had plenty of power to spare without violating the agreement between the Rosharan shards. That's what I want to know more about. There shouldn't just be Lift or Taln left with her touch on them, but many people over time. Her meddling shouldn't just have started 10 years ago, when the war got ugly again, but should have shaped history.

And I'm not saying that he couldn't. I am saying I'm not fully certain that he did. It's a question about how he directed his attention when enforcing his intention to take in all stormlight. If he wasn't aware of some shielded Stormlight, I don't find it absurd to think that it wasn't necessarily in the set of things he selected for recall. Even if he could have been aware of it, if he followed that connection.

Ah, sorry, I overlooked the second WoB you posted in response. Though I'm not fully sure what that was supposed to add? It talks about the limitations of a shards attention, not really about the process of reclaiming power, doesn't it? If your point was that there is some connection, since Stormlight can still get back to the spiritual realm, I certainly won't disagree. But the shards aren't normally aware of what happens behind aluminum, so I don't see why the stormlight inside the aluminum lining would necessarily be part of the "all" in the "reclaim all" order. That seems like quite the assumption about the mechanism here. Might be true, but I won't buy that that's how it necessarily works. "I reclaim every bit of the stuff I can find" seems like it would be a viable interpretation of what Retribution did here as well.

I really don't see why it would have to be that way. I mean, it's certainly possible, maybe even likely, but that sounds like a case that needs experimentation (so for us, examples or WoBs) to be cleared up. Could we really say that Brandon did a retcon, if it turns out that there is an archive of Stormlight that was successfully shielded from Retribution somehow, by means that weren't elaborated on before, because they weren't relevant? I don't think so. Now, it's not exactly a lot to build a theory aound, I'll agree with that. But since Stormlight is gone, I do wonder about the name of the series. And the Archive name does lend itself to thinking about something stored somewhere, somehow. Certainly not the only possible line of thought, but I don't think it's that much of a reach.

That's not exactly the same question, though. We're not talking about Stormlight leakage within Aluminum, we're talking about an outside force drawing out Stormlight through the Aluminum confinement. Probably without actually knowing it is there in the first place, shielded from view as it is. I'd guess if it works or not would depend on the mechanism of the reclaiming process, and if (re)connecting to the light requires his awareness.

...if any of that is the alternative, I'll take the Mary Sue any time. I like Adolin as he is now. I think a lot of readers do. And I think all of these suggestions would be hard to pull off without making me dislike the character. Creating drama and new character weaknesses during the plot, as you are suggesting here, is quite different from giving us characters that come with these weaknesses and learn to overcome them. I certainly wouldn't enjoy Shallan's and his relationship more, if there only was more drama and conflict in it, eating up the pages. I'm not saying that there isn't potential for good stories in following the fall as well as the rise of a character, but I can tell you that that's not what I read Sanderson for. Could there have been some more stumbling blocks in Adolin's road, without making it needlessly dramatic? I guess so. But I didnt miss any. And well, with the end of the world and all that going on, I kinda don't mind having a character around where I know that things are gonna be fine. Though I can't even really say that for Adolin, since he wasn't really far down on many "character most likely to die this book"-lists.

Just an idle thought on that... Shouldn't Honor be really easy to manipulate in that regard? Have the vessel swear to protect the planet and its people, and while the power might resent the oath, it would still be in its nature to try to keep it, wouldn't it?

I think a part of it is that frontloading Kaladin as the guy to talk to about mental health might have been a bad idea. Kaladin being there trying to help and trying things out is one thing, but having Dalinar and Wit basically tell us that as far as Roshar is concerned, Kaladin is the expert? And yes, throwing in the therapist term, so that no one could mistake that this was actually supposed to be an attempted professional treatment? I think that just made it harder to write it well. I don't think this is supposed to be read as a realistic depiction of therapy, so blatantly inviting the comparison seems like a misfire to me, and the reader can't really be blamed for judging it as if it were. I don't mind Kaladin trying to relate to everyone through his own experience - what else does he have? The man can't even read. I don't mind him sharing things that might not necessarily work for many people, but that might have felt like they worked for him, like "soldier thoughts". I don't mind him having a hard time maneuvering when to speak, when to listen, and what to say. He is an amateur. And I don't really mind his bumbling attempts working well enough for the plot, because he is being moved by players and forces with magical precognition that help him be at the right place at the right time with the right stories and the right state of mind. That comes with the fantasy territory. But none of it works as soon as I try to see him as a professional, and the best the planet can offer. And yes, the chosen language certainly didn't help,

Indeed. And I would suggest we usually get there by talking about the text. As it is, you're explaining to me what you read somehwere, somehow between the lines. You are aware that I haven't read the same subtext here. Which means, I'll continue to dismiss it as a premise for the argument of the change of messaging here, if you won't convince me otherwise. You might not find the "word" wholly authoritative, but I can tell you that I certainly am a lot more likely to be persuaded by it than I am by your explanantion of how one could have read the text differently from me. Especially if your reading leads to more disappointment and percieved inconsistencies than mine. You called it a vendetta, not me. I don't think what I said ever described one. I said the crusade was a consequence of rejecting the judgement of truthlessness, not the law that bound a truthless to a stone. As far as we knew before WaT, Szeth was judged for claiming "something related to a claim that the Voidbringers had returned". Seeing the Everstorm proved him right and his judges wrong, as he said. So when he choses his crusade, he chooses setting things right within his homeland. Not because the laws are wrong, but because something there is wrong, if it judged him wrongly. So... if "uncovering truth, seeking justice, and building confidence", as you say, are the themes of his journey, I'd say that's perfectly in line with that. I just don't think the text spports that he was as far along on that journey as you seem to think. Considering Nale made him choose, I don't think that's much of one. If Nale had told him what to do, he would have done it. Following the order to decide isn't breaking with obedience. Maybe with subservience or personal devotion, but I don't think either of those were ever established as traits for him. Else he wouldn't be so very abrasive as a person. How so? I mean, while he accepts Nale's prodding to do what the Heralds want him to do, Szeth has no qualms confronting Nale, when he tells him that including Kaladin was cheating, or rejecting his spren's authority, as soon as he sees him as less than useful. He has to decide between the path the heralds laid out for him, and his own realization that he wants to stop fighting, and he wavers, but never blindly follows either Kaladin's wishes, nor Nale's. Nor Ishar's for that matter. He is willing to take on the burden of being a Herald, if necessary, but he very explicitly demands the right to make that decision, instead of just obeying the order. I would say he makes choices aligning with his own sense of justice without shying away from questioning authorities quite a lot here.

Yeah, that Retribution isn't going to be stable with Honor's budding conscience pulling on one side, and Mishram on the other, with a lot of attentive Shards around, who might not come to punch Taravangian in the face, but who will certainly be quite helpful in making sure that he has ample opportunity to antagonize one or both of his powers, seems a bit obvious. Maybe too obvious and straightforward. But next to merging with other Shards I'd add forceful splintering (maybe through human action, looking at the scientific progress on Roshar and Scadrial), and reeducation of the Shard, like what might be happening with little Honor here, to the list of possible long-term-solutions to the rogue shard problem. Whatever a less odious version of Odium could look like...

Hey, "I agree" were actually the first words I adressed to you in this thread! But to add to the lack of felt emotion on the contest itself, I think the idea of getting Alethkar back was supposed to do a lot more work than it actually did. I mean, Alethkar was his homeland, so if we're looking for a reason why the guy would desperately want to win, freeing it should have been an obvious one. If that was the intention, it certainly didn't work for me at all. We haven't really spent much time with Alethkar as a place with its own character. Yeah, we know a lot of people from there, but well, most of the ones we knew we already got out to the Warcamps or Urithiru (and the rest were already under singer occupation when we met them). And even trying to see it from the way we got to know Dalinar... Alethkar was mostly a place where he found people to fight. We have never seen him enjoy life there. Might be we missed some interesting childhood and youth-stuff, but what we were presented with was the battlefield and the wine cellar, and that's it. The Dalinar that could function in society and actually look for peaceful resolutions was born on the shattered plains, after his visit to the Nightwatcher. Maybe there was some miscalculation here?

I agree with you on that one. That would have been more interesting to me. As it was, I didn't find the contest itself very relevant, because the text had made it very clear to me before it happened that it wouldn't matter. So the champion wasn't much of the point to me. But yeah, Dalinar's moral decision could have been driven home better, if he actually had a reason to want to win the contest, even a petty one like personal vengeance. Though I don't think it hurt Dalinar's character not to have one, and I don't think it would have added anything to him that we hadn't seen before. The contest was pointless either way, but I understand how it could have been more emotional like you suggest.

Renegotiate to what end, exactly? "Leave us be, kill the guys in the rest of the cosmere instead"? Would that count as responsible? And I think we don't need divine computation powers to see that "and also, paint a giant target on your back, so that all the other shards will immediately focus on you" wouldn't have been on the table.

That kinda makes the discussion about it irrelevant, doesn't it? The facts aren't the point, so it would be a bit of a pointless effort to once again explain what was explained in this thread before. That you didn't feel the justification is the point. And that's fair, though not particularly convincing for someone like me who did.

Ah, thanks, I must have missed that somehow. And I can't say I like it in the least. Szeth up for another order of lawkeepers whose principles he doesn't even know at that point? I thought it was about not having to kill anymore, at least in part. I mean, it makes sense that the author would drag him into the action again, sooner or later, but at that moment? Hrm. Oh well, but yeah, that answers my question about the Skybreaker pov... partially at least, considering we have no idea where those Skybreakers are supposed to have gone, or did I miss the hints on that one as well? If I didn't, I don't think he will find them in the offscreen years, he still has a wife to woo anyways, so this pov will probybly not help in establishing the Nale-Skybreakers starting position in book 6.

Are we getting a new Skybreaker pov, now that Szeth and Nale are gone? Else I doubt we'll really dive into it, just like we know very, very little about the other non-pov-orders. Which would make me suspect the status quo, with the Skybreakers upholding singer law on ancestral singer lands and thus serving Retribution, who will likely have his ways to keep his own troops functional.

For me the book mostly gave me a direction to look for what would be happening in the second arc, and how it would be different from the first. And I am perfectly content with the result. I can see the personal conflicts that can make for some interesting character arcs in Renarin, Jasnah, Adolin, Lift and most the Heralds, for example. I am already kind of hyped to explore the political and economical changes on Roshar, and I can see how the new situation could make groups like the Listeners (and their Willshapers!) so much more interesting than they were. I really want to see the characters explore the new possibilities and restrictions that Retribution's emergence brought to the magic of Roshar. I am interested in what form of conflict the renewed cosmere attention will bring to Roshar, and how they will get to a level where they can stand up to guns and golem armies. Waiting for more than half a decade is a downer for sure, but at least I trust this author to keep to something close to that schedule, and I have waited longer for less (and it isn't like I won't hopefully enjoy Ghostbloods and Elantris while waiting). So no, this book didn't really change my perspective on the series. I am as interested to see what happens next as ever. I mean, I agree that this wasn't the best SA book. And looking at how much it tried to set up for the next one, I don't think it ever could have been. But once again... I've waded through much, much, much worse middle-of-the-series slumps that were too busy setting up the next book than this. This one was at least still quite a fun read to me. I was never bored, some of the character arcs missed, but some hit me quite well, and I saw nothing that would me doubt the author's ability to deliver in the future.

Ok, but I didn't chose my quotes at random. They were part of my argument. We are talking about a text, so yes, the quote is the authority here. If the text was ambivalent, you could show me, by giving me quotes that recontextualize the quotes that I chose. On the matter itself: As I said and you didn't respond to, Szeth isn't derivating from Skybreaker structure, he is operating within its limits, as laid out by Nale. I'll agree that deciding between the law and a personal exemplar, Szeth made a decision. And you can call that a step in his recovery. But considering it was a decision of what to subjugate his will to, it certainly was quite far from the level of recovery that WaT was about. It was also a decision that was prompted by Nale himself. Szeth was perfectly willing to swear to follow the law after his Skybreaker tests, but Nale told him that things were changing for the Skybreakers, he should postpone his oath, and watch the situation before deciding. With Nale being open about his kind of madness getting worse. I'd give you quotes, but... why bother, I guess. And call it lawfulness or call it justice, Szeth's ideal was to follow Dalinar's will, whatever that would be. Because Szeth would rather trust him to figure out was justice is than himself. Which would make Dalinar's will the law he lives by, but that's semantics. How is that supposed to convince me without posting a source? I am quite willing to be proven wrong by the text, but I certainly won't be by you just contradicting me. Szeth just didn't go into that much detail on the cleansing of Shinovar, what I posted was as deep as it got. His beef with them clearly started when he started rejecting the title of truthless, though. And WaT told us why, in a manner that didn't contradict anything said before, as far as I know. Which doesn't matter much, if the core of his conviction was still that his own judgement doesn't matter, because he can't be trusted. Which is why it wasn't hard to make him doubt his choice of ideal in WaT, with Szeth being perfectly willing to consider switching to the law, or to Kaladin, if anyone would please just tell him to do it.

I like that thought. Especially since it helps me to rationalize Taravangian's over-the-rop cruelty here from his perspective. If he isn't just creating a weapon, but creating a king in his image, spending 20 years of spirit time on him is quite in character, much more so than just marinating the boy in hatred for 20 years to make a point. And Taravangian's protégé, raised on a mix of his ruling philosophy, and a passion to get what is rightfully his, sounds much more interesting to me as a character than just another abuse victim to send to the Herald of Bumbling Therapies. Heck, if there is actually a Taravangian-formed mind behind the sword, he might even be willing to look beyond the betrayal, understanding Todium's motives. I certainly would prefer an arc where he finds his way in Retribution's realm, which he at least somewhat understands, to one where everyone tries to rebilitate him. And having him interact with the Blackthorn's spiritual shadow or whatever it is, sounds interesting.

I don't think so. Nale told him to decide on a third ideal and explained the rules, and Szeth decided to follow Dalinar's judgement, staying within the outlined rules. It was all within the limits of Nale's doctrine, even if it wasn't exactly Nale's will. And Shin religion didn't really play into the scene as it was written at all. Szeth didn't event think about the fact that in choosing Dalinar he rejected a herald as a guide, and Nale himself told him that he didn't think his judgement could be trusted, since he was "getting worse". So it was always between the law itself and Dalinar. He also prefaces his choice of an ideal with ""I don’t trust myself, aboshi,” Szeth whispered. “I cannot see the right any longer. My own decisions are not trustworthy.”", which is the core of what we are tackling in WaT, so he certainly didn't move beyond his problems here, and it indeed was himself submitting to Dalinar as if his word was law. "“I serve Dalinar Kholin,” Szeth-son-son-Vallano whispered. His face, for some reason, was streaked with grey. “I cannot know truth, so I follow one who does.”" Not really. As WaT showed quite clearly, Szeth believes he was never truthless, because he thinks he was right. The Desolation came, and he still thinks the Honorbearers are in the grip of an Unmade. It's not that it was wrong for a truthless to follow the oathstone, it was that he was never truthless, because the laws were wrongly applied to him, which he realized back in WoR, when the Everstorm came. And thus he sets out on a quest to cleanse his home. And in RoW, when his spren greenlit the quest, it was explicitly a quest about judging the truth, and acting accordingly: I really can't see any repetition in his arc here, only a logical continuation.

Well, edginess is in the name!

You could also have taken that as an invitation to explain why you are so sure about your claim. If you expected responsibility equating oaths to be a "series philosophy" of Stormlight, I can see why you'd think what happened here a takeback. But I certainly didn't have that expectation and I didn't see it substantiated in the text, nor did I see much of an explanation where it came from from you. So yeah, I am perfectly comfortable with putting the burden of proof on you on that one, and just denying the claim until it is met. What else am I supposed to do?