Khmauv

The tongue-in-cheek topic title grabbed your interest enough to get you to read the post and is therefore functioning as intended. This is what I was hoping would be discussed.

So I am re-reading warbreaker (yes I know this is the Mistborn forum) and I came across a little nugget that I think gives a partial answer to a question posed earlier in 'How he's still around'. I was going to post there but the topic there quickly derailed to a discussion in hemalurgy, I thought it would be better to post a new topic than try to get that one back on track. Moving on. To give my partial answer on why Kelsier is able to stick around to help out after his death. I refer to warbreaker and the court of the gods. The hallandren doctrine teaches in their human life the gods performed some heroic deed that gave them the power to come back. Upon dying they decided to use this power to return and impart knowledge from the other side or other aid to help those still living. I propose that there is at least some truth in this doctrine and it is this power, granted to Kelsier by his heroic deed, that allowed him to stick around and help fight Ruin. I realize this brings up more questions like, "Why does a heroic deed grant this power?". That is why it is a partial answer. Discuss!

So once their brother takes the throne of Idris Vivenna and Siri will loose their Royal Locks? Edit: I am sorry. I misread that. Only the CHILDREN of the inheritor will have the Locks. edit2: that is a really interesting quote. How/why could/would royal lineage have this effect?

I don't think you could get the same results by using a more efficient method to make a nightbloodesque awakened object. I believe the sentience endowed to nightblood is a direct result of being invested with so many breaths. Along the same lines of Aons or Syl. It seems that a certain level of investiture grants sentience. (Though that could be completely wrong.)

Is belief in the ability to change your hair in this case the difference? Vasher does indicate in the epilogue that Vivenna could possibly learn to change her appearance beyond just the hair. So is it possible that there were children of other returned that had the ability but didn't know it. The royal family being taught from birth that they had this ability would never question and so their belief fueled the locks.

Sherlock and Watson will definitely need a villainous counterpart. I propose... [5pts] Binky - a double duralimun twinborn, I call them a Siren, able to draw others to them with an overwhelmingly magnetic charisma. A Con-artist by training and a master infiltrator, Binky would quickly be accepted into any part of society, getting close to those who matter without drawing any suspicion. Spying, gathering information, and even assassination would be a simple task for Binky. Binky is a master of hiding in plain sight whether as your new best friend, as the servant bringing you your favorite meal, or the unknown man standing in the corner that, despite the meetings sensitive subject matter, doesn’t seem to be drawing any attention. [5pts] The Prain – a double Zinc twinborn and a master strategist. The Prain is constantly assessing the political climates and devising new ways to sway entire governments to doing his bidding. His motivations are always selfish but the results are not always necessarily detrimental. Together, Binky and The Prain, rule behind the scenes careful to appear innocuous to those around them. They insidiously play puppet master to the most powerful, advancing their schemes to an unknowable end.

This makes me wonder...If the Pits of Hathsin were producing very little Atium. At least I assume a low rate of formation based on a rate of one bead per prisoner per week with prisoners frequently being killed. Was that due to tLR storing the majority of it away so there was very little to precipitate back into the world? If that is the case, now that all of it was burned up, would it now precipitate out much faster? Is there a large stock of it available in the Wax's time then? Or is Harmony consuming it? Or is it not precipitating out because ruin isn't trapped by preservation anymore?

Just to kind of steer things back on course...I have a thought on the formation feruchemists. Forgive me this is a stab in the dark. It is a result of hemalurgy. Preservation gave part of itself to all to make them sentient. This had a side effect of making a small percentage of the people mistings even before the ascension. I just learned recently, correct me if I am wrong, that the people, pre-ascension of tLR, practiced hemalurgy. Given the inborn preservation and the hemalurgic addition of ruin, and your children then have both leading to the remote probability of a child with just the right sDNA to be a feruchemist. I realize this is a long shot and it doesn't explain why there were no ferrings of record until after harmony, but I like the idea and thought someone else might like to help me explore it.

Star Trek the latest movie. Three Vulcan boys bullying Spock...

I came across a little nugget found in the prelude when re-reading. I take from this that Knights Radiant and Parshendi were fighting together against the voidbringers. I would like to speculate further that the Parshendi are of cultivation, and Knights Radiant are of Honor. The assassination of King Gavilar was likely perpetrated one under the influence of Odium, in an attempt to get them to weaken one another. More particularly to weaken those of Cultivation for when Odium strikes again. My additional, and somewhat tenuous evidence, that the Parshendi are of Cultivation is that they live where the highstorms first hit land and are strongest. Given my personal belief that the Stormfather is cultivation, and the storm itself is his physical presence on Rohsar I would think that those who are of cultivation or worship him would live nearest his influence.

whoa, he was a seeker and had hemalurgic spikes too? Where does this info come from?

I was wondering about this as well. IIRC Sazed has no record of Allomancy before Rashek Ascended. Yet Alendi felt the pulses. Is it possible that there were allomancers before TLR that didn't recognize their powers or is the ability to sense the thumping from the well a different ability all together On the topic of copperclouds, I like the idea of a seeker "pinging" for allomancy. The pings could be resonating with the spiritual vibrations of the allomantic power amplifying it so the seeker can "hear" it better. Each seeker having their own frequency would interfere with other seekers pinging. If this were the case could it then be possible for a seeker to tune in to another seekers pings to search without revealing themselves? A smoker then would be damping the pings signal. A higher "power" ping would require more damping to keep the resonant amplification from generating a return signal. Therefore it makes sense that a double copper ping could overpower the damping. It would also mean that a smoker could potentially flare their metals to mask even better.

I realize that Brandon isn't infallible. But I don't want to just chalk it up to "magic". There is something in me that says his description of how things work is correct and intuitive. I have been thinking, Like Satsuoni, that we may be making the mistake of assuming that Force is the constant factor here. I keep imagining trying to jump upward on a falling platform to reduce your speed before you hit the ground. I just cannot think that you could generate the same force and therefore the same thrust as jumping up from the ground. But, I reiterate that I have been wrong before.

Any exploring? Auger: I presume you've prepared new insults for today. Thug:Your mother lies with many men. Auger: I have no such information. Thug: You are neither ferring, nor real allomancer -- and therefore, have no place in the universe. Auger: This is your thirty-fifth attempt to elicit an emotional response from me. You should have realized by now that I burn gold daily to unsure I that I live my life according to divine sanction. You words are hollow and meaningless to me. Thug: (interally) He's so strong! How can ever hope to intimidate an Auger?

But could it make a good story? Perhaps with the infinitely imaginative mind of Mr. (robot-o) Sanderson it could. I just can't think of anything exciting in it.

This is absolutely...True. You have made me rethink this, I believe I have found the flaw in my analysis. I failed to account for the coins change in acceleration as well as the change in mass as the coin hit the wall. in other words... F=ma -> m1*a1=m2*a2 -> a1 = (m2/m1)*a2. I looked at this equation and noticed that increasing m2 would increase a1 but failed to realize that as the coin hit the wall not only did the mass increase but the acceleration decreased. Well now I am baffled, I thought I understood the mechanics of what is going on here...I'll have to think through this. I am still not convinced that increased mass means more allomantic pushing strength. however...I think I am a little more open minded. @ Satsuoni - Can you give me a more detailed analysis. I follow your numbers to the coin reaching 2km/s coin speeds but from there I can't understand where your numbers go.

This is a good point. It does seem to fit nicely with respect to the other metals, gold letting you see what you could have been, and electrum what you could become. I know I am stretching here but we have only seen electrum used as an atium counter. Maybe it's uses in non-combat setting could be very different, if flared or duralumin/nicrosil burst, it could allow you to see a distant result to you current choice to help you become what you want to be. Maybe that has less to do with spiritual identity and more with taking control of your life. I don't know. I kind of just wanted explore the possibilities that gold might offer. Maybe if used at a critical juncture in your life the effects of gold/electrum may help you make a more informed decision to direct your life. Sounds boring now. It does seem that evidences point to this it just seems so mundane. I keep trying to this of something more...useful/exciting.

I REALLY like this. Selective superpower tin enhancement. Good call Phantom.

While pushing on the coin in the air with the same force as a coin on the ground produces the same force, it does not produce the same acceleration on your body. The difference is the mass of what you are pushing on. When you are pushing on a coin in the air you are pushing on the mass of the coin alone. When pushing on a coin on the ground you are effectively pushing against the mass of the entire planet. Ion thrusters have a few things going for them. First, the ion has a very high acceleration. (remembering that mass AND acceleration are the factors to determine force). second, ion thrusters eject ions continually and in large quantities. the sum of small forces adding to a large force. third, they are currently only feasible in space where the gravitational forces are not counteracting all of their work. Rockets work in much the same way, heating and accelerating gasses at high enough volumes to produce a large enough force to propel a shuttle into space. The hard part about getting rockets of the ground is that you have to carry all of your fuel with you. This adds weight and therefore more thrust is required to lift the rocket. Its a careful balancing act. Theoretically it is possible for an allomancer with enough allomantic strength and a large enough store of coins to use them like a rocket. but I think the effect would be short, not very effective, and while waiting to use this ability they would be lugging around a large, very heavy, sack of coins.

I am forming this theory as I write so forgive me. I was reading TFE where Vin uses gold for the first time. Kelsier repeatedly tells her it is an uncomfortable experience. She repeats this sentiment after she tries it, along with the desire to never try it again. It is possible that because the experience is so uncomfortable, gold is so expensive, and the benefit of its use are not readily apparent, that few if any have made the effort to truly understand it. This brings me to wonder, "What does gold really do?" Below is Vin’s experience with gold in TFE (Transcribed by me from the audiobook. Please forgive any punctuational discrepancies.) She was in two places at once. She could see herself, and she could she herself. One of her was a strange woman changed and transformed from the girl she had always been. That girl had been careful and cautious. A girl who would never burn an unfamiliar metal based solely on the word of one man. This woman foolish, she had forgotten many of things that had let her survive so long. She drank from cups prepared by others. She fraternized with Strangers. She didn’t keep track of the people around her. She was still far more careful than most people, but she had lost so much. The other her was something she had always secretly loathed, a child really. Thin to the point of scrawniness, she was lonely, hateful, and untrusting. She loved no one and no one loved her. She always told herself quietly that she didn’t care. Was there something worth living for? There had to be. Life couldn’t be as pathetic as it seemed. Yet it had to be. There wasn’t anything else. Vin was both. She stood in two places, moving both bodies, being both girl and woman. She reached out with hesitant uncertain hands, one each, and touched herself on the faces, one each. Vin gasped and it was gone. She felt a sudden rush of emotions, a sense of worthlessness and confusion. There were no chairs in the room so she simply squatted to the ground, sitting with her back to the wall, knees pulled up arms wrapped around them. What I learned from this… - Burning gold produces a second version of yourself that only you can see. - Vin felt as though she were both versions of herself simultaneously. - She seemed to scrutinize each “self” from the eyes of the other. - We know that when her gold ran out, Vin had a latent effect where it seems she had, briefly, taken upon herself attributes of the “other self”. Kelsier explains that just like atium lets you see into the future, gold lets you see the past, or at least another version of yourself, had things been different in the past. But I don’t think this is the case. Many times throughout TFE, Vin thinks to herself how she is like two different people. Vin the street urchin and Vin the noblewoman. She also notices that both seem to be masks of her true self, that the ash smeared face and ragged clothes of the street urchin is a costume to hide her true identity just as much as the makeup and dresses that ‘Vallete’ wears keep her hidden among the nobility. So here is my theory. Gold is the identity metal. I know that Brandon will be exploring identity in the future and I think gold will be the vessel of exploration. What I am uncertain about is what identity does for a member of the cosmere, and how can it be used in "cool and interesting" ways. I am toying with a few ideas. 1. a strong identity of self could make you less susceptible to emotional allomancy. Knowing yourself could enable you to better recognize external influences( I personally find this boring.) 2. You could not only solidify your identity but you could change your identity, by making distinct aliases with flawless mannerisms. 3. Or perhaps more interestingly you could alter you spiritual Identity to use another's metalminds. I don't know my imagination is somewhat limited. What are your thoughts? edit: I double pasted. woops!

This is what makes them interesting. A good reason to write a story about them. edit: Pechvarry, I like your style. towing yourself behind bullets...awesome.

THIS, YES! Well Stated. edit: I think Lyrebon already answered this. Force is a function of mass and acceleration. the force between you and the coin is equal but your masses are not. If you have more mass you have less acceleration. So when lyrebon says it "doesn't accelerate you" that is not strictly true but the acceleration in negligible because the coins mass is so small compared to yours. So double jumping won't accelerate you very much until the coin snaps against the ground, effectively changing the mass of what you are pushing on. If the force of your push doesn't change your acceleration will. I think this is what we saw with Vin and the wall. The mass of what she was pushing on changed and since her mass couldn't change to balance the force, her acceleration as a result must.

I just noticed something while reading through this...Brandon mentioned symbol on the cover that matched one in these charts. The following pictures seem to match. I always assumed that the main figure on the cover was one of the Knights Radiant or Dalinar. If that is true what connection would they have to Odium?

I really like this theory. I don't have much to add at the moment but I think I will keep it in mind as I reread.

I really like this theory and it seems to tie many things together. senor feesh's thread on shardic lens theory does seem to expand on this tying it to the rhythmic pulses given off by allomancy to the importance of color in awakening. I think their is a tie the Dor as well, there seems to be a relation between accessing the Dor and light. The Aons and the glowing elantrians being the obvious connection and Shuden glowing slightly as he performs Chayshan.