Khmauv

Theory: Rock, Paper, Scissors…Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual. After reading The Emperor’s Soul I have been thinking about forging and how it works. It seems to me that a forger is directly altering an objects spiritual aspect, which in turn alters the physical. I also thought about how some forgeries were viable or not based on how believable the change. Shai mentions that if too many people know something is a forgery the less likely it is to stick. This started me on a path to a new Theory. The Rock, Paper, Scissors Theory of the Cosmere. It goes like this: Physical determines cognitive. Cognitive determines spiritual. Spiritual determines physical. I am not going to take the time to make a diagram but you can imagine that this makes a nice neat feedback loop that naturally finds an equilibrium on what we find normal. A regular input to the system would be through the physical. Someone takes a stone and chisels it into a statue. The physical alteration changes people’s cognitive view of the stone and in turn the spiritual aspect is changed to match. Magical systems are those that violate this pattern. Forging alters the spiritual directly which alters the physical. If the physical is believable then the cognitive falls in line and the alterations stick and the feedback loop continues. If the change is not plausible the loop is broken and the forgery breaks down. Awakening alters the cognitive aspect of an object which changes the spiritual and then the physical. Breath seems to act as a buffer that makes the impossible plausible, the less likely the change the more breath is required. If the command is given poorly or there are not enough breaths to buffer the loop is broken and nothing changes. Another example is the spren. There seems to be a thinning of the barriers between the realms on Roshar. I believe the spren are a spiritual manifestation. When measured a fire spren assumes that measurement and stops changing. The simple act of writing down the measurement locks the spren’s cognitive aspect in place and fixes its spiritual and then physical forms (if indeed they have physical forms). I know it’s not perfect but I thought it was at least cohesive enough to present.

I have been listening to Elantris on audiobook recently and something stuck out. When Hrathen is explaining to Dilaf the need to 'find somebody to hate', he says (I am quoting from a poor memory. Sorry.) "Hate unites people better than devotion ever could." I thought about this and wonder if you could write it this way, "Hate unites people better than Devotion ever could." It got me thinking, what kind of influence does Odium have over the Fjordell empire and Wyrn for that matter. I may be digging a little deep here, but this seemed too perfect a connection to Odium. Any thoughts?

Edit: removed the nonsense I had posted before. I just finished a re-read of Elantris and found, what I believe, is evidence that Dahkor...Dor...is an end negative magic. Near the end of the book we get a POV from Dilaf. He is thinking about how overconfident the other demon monks are and how they should be more careful because they don't have the same resistance to the magic of the Dor that he gained by sacrificing 50 men. This sounds an awful lot like Hemalurgy.

Though I don't believe phantoms statement, that metals are annihilated, is correct, I do agree that Leuthie's metric measurement system is flawed. I'll throw out my own theory...maybe the metric isn't measured in relation to the physical realm but to the magic wielder themselves, as follows: End positive: Magical Energy/attribute is added to magicker. End neutral: Magical Energy/attribute is set aside from magicker's personal energy for later use. end negative: Magical Energy/attributes is removed from magicker. edit: on further thought this doesn't seem to hold water. When looking at awakening it appears to be neutral at first until you consider the endowment and receipt of new breaths. It would be classified as all three. edit 2: The more I think about it, the more I can't come to any conclusion on how this should be measured. I cannot think of a measure that is consistent with all magic systems.

Geography does play a role in the manifestation of magic, as we know from Sel.

This is an interesting line of discussion that I hadn't seen before. The thrill seems, to me, to be a side effect of investiture. On Nalthis investiture seems to have the effect of heightening certain innate attributes. Breath increases life sense, ability to heal, ability to sense harmonics in color and sound. Another extreme case is the power of the well of ascension. It expands the mind to understand how to use the power. I wonder if this is what Dalinar and Kaladin are experiencing. A heightened awareness, reduced pain, greater control of self, all due to investiture. If this is the case, then I think Leuthie is on to something. Whose power are they invested with and how, exactly, is that power being used and manifest?

I don't know about a wooden stake but an Atium spike would work for sure!

Do you suggest, perhaps, that Adonalsium is a physical object condensed out of the spiritual and is only a small part on Adonals (or Adonis? ) that can be used as a key to access a small part of the true power of the universe?

I am NOT trying to make a direct comparison. I am only highlighting some interesting parallels. I do not believe that Adonalsium == Kronos anymore than I think that Rand Al'Thor == King Arthur, though there are a LOT of Parallels.

@Makromag Are you finding anything that says that Hades is the lord of Elysium? I am finding, not a few, sources some that are well sited that give Kronos the title of king of Elysium. one is here. I never intended for the idea to suggest that BS is copying another story. I think Brandon is far too creative to just retell a story. I do however think that he is not above taking tidbits from our own mythos to give the story more depth. In reality, I just found the connection between Adonalsium and a god that was sliced up to be interesting. Edit: @Phantom - I appreciate you bringing you wit and charm to the thread

That's just it. I didn't look very hard. It just popped up. I'll concede that much of the idea was forced particularly in regard to Cronus. However, I stand firm in my belief that Adonalsium is Adon Alsium = Lord of Elysium. I also can't get past Hesiod the oral poet. It just seems to perfectly match Hoid. As far as Cronus being the ruler of the fields of Elysium...I saw is several places here in the Wiki it say's

Out of curiosity I was trying to dissect the name Adonalsium to see if there may be something interesting there to understand. This is what I found. Using Google translate (I know, not the most accurate source of translation) I found I could break up the the word into Adon and Alsium. Adon is a title meaning Lord, and Alsium meaning Elysium. (keep in mind I am typing in hebrew using the english letters adon alsium) So the meaning I get out is Adonalsium means: Lord of Elysium Digging deeper -- -Elysium is an afterlife paradise for heroes, the righteous, and those chosen by the gods. -Stories of Elysium were told by a Greek oral poet named...*cough* Hoid *cough*...Hesiod. -The ruler of Elysium was Cronus. Cronus was cast down by his children foremost among them Zeus. My thoughts. I think there is some rough semblance between the Greek mythology of Cronus and the fall of Adonalsium. I don't think that Brandon is drawing all inspiration from Greek mythology but I think there are some insights. - I didn't find anything online to back this up but I recall from somewhere (maybe the Percy Jackson books) that Cronus was cut up and scattered over the earth to keep him from reforming and retaking control of the heavens. The idea of scattering aside, all sources I have found agree that Cronus ate his children for fear they would overthrow him, Zeus later forces Cronus to expel them, either by vomiting them up, or by cutting him open. His children then take control of the heavens. I think this parallels the fall of Adonalsium, and leads me to wonder if Adonalsium was a Tyrannical God thrown down by his Children or other lesser beings. Maybe the reconstitution of Adonalsium is not a good idea. - Just to point this out again because I don't think it is coincidence that the Greek Poet was names Hesoid. I can't look at that name and NOT see HOID staring back at me. I think this idea is reinforced by Brandon's depiction of Hoid as a storyteller in both Nalthis and Roshar (maybe storyteller isn't accurate but close enough). Maybe there isn't much to be gained from this research by I think it is interesting and does give some insight into the mythology of the cosmere. Your thoughts? Critiques?

I think that on Nalthis it's a mix of making an imprint on people around you, wanting to return, and being chosen by Endowment. It works like this...your cognitive imprint gives you the time that Endowment needs to propose returning to help others, you then get to chose to stay or go on.

This may give us some insight into the way allomancy is used on the southern continent of Scadrial. Using harmonic devices that attune to the resonant frequencies of burning metals...nah! I am stretching too far.

There may be nothing inherently Odious about fabrials but it does allow people who are not honorable to access the power of Honor, thus allowing dishonorable people to perform Odious acts on a larger scale. I could see that Odium, knowing that power corrupts, would invest a small amount of himself to make fabrials work, giving honor's power to those who seek it for selfish purposes. Wars would arise and the people of Roshar would do Odium's work, fueled by honors power. edit: corrected typos. edit: I maybe stretching here though.

Expanding this^ I have thought that maybe the KR powered their own shard plate. I postulate that addition of fabrials was a way to power them without the need to be a KR. edit: to High-jack the use of these honorable tools.

That's the thread I sited in the original post. I hate to be contrary but from the WoB quote above it seems that everyone sticks around. It was others faith in him, as a deity, that allows him to communicate with the living.

How do we know it's not of Odium?

Where did Brandon say Fabrials are of cultivation?

thanks Pechvarry! This seems to be explaining why Kelsier can speak to Spook NOT why Kelsier gets to stick around. Edit: I looked at the rest of the quote... So if I read this correctly there is nothing unusual about dead people sticking around. They are just in an afterlife and it is Kelsier's compulsion to meddle, coupled with spooks faith in Kelsier, that allowed him to steer events from the otherside.

I just read that after I posted my last comment. Still, doesn't that reinforce the concept of heroic deeds allowing them to stick around? Can you explain that a little further? What is it about the church of the survivor that would hold Kelsier in the Cognitive Realm? That doesn't ring a bell but I would like to see it. If that is true it is important indeed.

I agree with many of you that the existence of the constellation is less magical and more cultural. However, I wouldn't put it past Brandon to have placed this not to bring attention to the stars but the scar. What if it is the scar that is of importance. Why would a scar on a Herald be so important that it constitutes naming a constellation after it. Was it just a prominent mark that we can use to identify Taln in future books? Or was something out of the ordinary done to Taln to give him the scar?

The more I think on this the more I am convinced you guys are right. As I was reading, it was mentioned that Lightsongs title is something to the effect of 'Lightsong the brave: god of heroes'. I don't remember much of the other gods but I know there is Blushweaver who, it seems, was returned for her beauty. There was a god of laughter too. So maybe renowned people are returned more often, and Lightsong returning for bravery or heroics was specific to him. Perhaps the Idris faith and the five visions, that discourage ostentation, are meant to keep people from making a strong cognitive imprint thus keeping people from returning. I also agree that there is something different on Nalthis (I believe this to be the super breath) that makes it possible for the returned to not only stick around in the cognitive realm but to also retake their bodies. This is what makes Nalthis different from Scadrial, it is a lot more noticeable when someone does stay. I seem to recall, but ca't find it anywhere, that Brandon suggested that there were many people waiting for Kelsier in, what I assume is, the cognitive realm. It is possible then that there are many people sticking around to watch. given this option by having imprinted themselves so strongly on the minds of the living. On Nalthis they have the the option to return as well the super breath reanimating there lifeless body. As far as tLR is concerned, I think Brandon tried to imply that he was tired. He was done, and I dare say he was relieved to have the burden of fighting ruin removed from his shoulders. He may have been able to stick around but chose to continue on to the other side, or chose to watch but was done trying to interfere.

I don't think that the heroic deed has to be "world changing" given that Lightsong's heroic deed was not very public IIRC. For that reason I don't think it has to do with the being tied to the cognitive realm. Unless the imprinting has less to do with the number of people you "imprinted" and more to do with the magnitude of the imprint. .