listerfeend

Who said that it's pointing to Yolen? I feel like you missed the point I was trying to make. My fault! My point was there are plenty of ways that Yolen could still be "hidden" and this thing still pointing to where Ado was Shattered/"Died". So I don't think Khriss saying that Yolen is hidden is evidence against this compass pointing towards Ado's Shattering. That's an interesting thing, and I'm liking that we are getting more complex with the Cosmere, starting to explore things like Connection and Fortune and Identity. However, this thing is the SOURCE of the Current. Trace Investiture doesn't seem like it would be the source of something called the Current that is apparently something important enough to get a name like that. If you'll notice, I immediately said why that was a silly thing to think, I shouldn't have included it. I sometimes do that just to get my thoughts out, sorry. We know that Investiture has different "spins" to it, for lack of a better term. We also know that you can detect differences between, say, Odium and Honor's Investiture. It doesn't seem to far a stretch that you could identify pre shattering Ado Investiture vs. post Shattering Investitures assigned to the 16 shards. Above all, my point is that there is something out in the CR that is creating this "Current" whatever that happens to be, and the MOST likely source of that is going to be Investiture, as that is how anything of import gets done, especially from Shards. Connection and Fortune don't really seem like a thing that is going to be able to create a Current through the CR... Which is why it feels like whatever the compass is pointing to, at the end of the day, is a source of Investiture, large enough to send a current through the CR. The compass could certainly be using Connection to point in the correct direction, but I'm trying to figure out what it is Connected to, if that makes any sense? Fair, though the Singers certainly have a ton of things related to songs, and this knowledge could come from them. That's also a fair point, but, counterpoint, if it's a much bigger deal outside of Roshar, why is the first time we hear about it from a Spren who has never left Roshar? That can basically go both ways. I say that it feels like a big deal because of the naming, the Current. That seems like it's a big deal. Sure, knowledge of the Current could have come from off world. Strange that we are finding out about it here though.

What else would they be detecting as a the source of the Current? Are you suggesting there is some other thing they could be detecting? Yes, that's a very simple explanation, but doesn't really answer the previous question. So, we're saying that Ambition's splintering did...what? Created a "Current" through the CR? I did just have a thought about some kind of Investiture black hole, but it says that the Knell is the source of the Current, which indicates that the Current flows from it, not towards it. So why would Ambition's Splintering location, wherever that may be, have had such an impact that it has created a Current through the CR of...something? The only thing I can come up with in the Cosmere that would do something like that and is Shard related is Investiture, which is why I feel like they have to be detecting that Investiture. I don't know what else the compass could be pointing towards. Considerable, but still negligible in comparison to the amount of Investiture present on Roshar that would be permeating everything from the Splintered remains of Honor, not to mention Cultivation and Odium. That doesn't seem logical to me at all. Although that could just be because literally none of the Shard Splinterings have had seemingly any cohesive identifiers. Every single instance has been very different from the others. Sel is a mess cuz Odium forced it all into the CR, which hasn't seemed to have had Cosmere wide effects. Virtuosity Splintered herself, and that hasn't really seemed to cause much of an issue there, or throughout the Cosmere. Honor died and was Splintered and... again, nothing too crazy seems to have happened, on a Cosmere scale. So why is Ambition so different? Ado, being the source of all Investiture in the Cosmere, driving Currents through the CR, makes WAY more logical sense to me than Ambition's splintered Shard doing something like this. I know, Yolen is "hidden", whatever that means, but that doesn't mean the Compasses can't be pointing towards something that has to do with Ado. Or that the planet itself isn't wherever the source of this Current is. Or that the planet is "there" but you can't actually get to it by following the source of the Current for some reason or another. There are a lot of ways that this could play out and still maintain the hidden Yolen thing. Two things on this point: There are a LOT of dead gods in the Cosmere, and lots of death in general. And, yes, Threnody is a song of lamentation, but we've also got the Rhythms on Roshar, and it's a little strange that Rosharans would use Threnody naming conventions for kind of anything, in my opinion. At least not for something that is that big a deal? I don't know just seems like "Knell" can fit into what we've been learning about Roshar and the Pure Tones and Singers and everything else on Roshar, that it could really be either or.

But why does that seem more likely than Ado? The ONLY thing we've seen so far of Shards interacting with other Shard worlds like this has been with Autonomy, and that was at the direct will of the Shard themself. I just don't see how it makes more sense for far distant and non-related Splintered Shard Investiture to be reaching out to a completely unrelated Shardworld, than it does for it to be something to do with Ado, who is the only thing in the Cosmere that actually Connects to all these places.

A few things of note: It could actually be the Dor, if only for mechanical sense instead of textual sense - the compass presumably actually points at something, and we know there's an extensive density of Investiture in Sel's Cognitive subastral that could be the target. We don't know where Ambition's power lies, but presumably not only the Cognitive like those two. Ambition specifically wasn't Splintered in the Threnodite system; the main piece of the battle and Ambition's (and Odium's) wounding occured there, but the actual Splintering didn't. That would make sense as a compass point, because it would be a constant direction in the Threnodite subastral as well and within other subastrals. (Unless that's what the Nalthis Cognitive Anomaly is... but we've got no idea what that is). Also, I'm not sure if Virtuosity was even Splintered at this point. The timeline on that's a bit weird... I swear Hoid had mentioned something about Virtuosity Splintering herself three centuries before the events of Yumi, but I think that was a fabrication on my part. Three Centuries comes up an odd amount in the cosmere. I do agree the Grand Knell fits Threnodite naming as well. My issue with it being anything other than something relating to Ado is that it has a proper noun name: the Current. I don't know why anything to do with Ambition, Virtuosity, or any of the other splintered Shards would be blasting enough Investiture towards Roshar for it to become a Named thing. We know that all of the Shard's Investiture is present everywhere in the Cosmere, but it's like the Microwave Background Radiation in our own world, omnipresent, detectable in all directions, but very miniscule. The Shard's Investiture is highly concentrated around where they have taken up residence, outside of that sphere of influence, it's negligible. Enough that the Shard can detect things in that area, if they want, but not much more than that. I just don't see how a Splintered Shard would be blasting out Investiture like that. Ado makes sense to me, because it's Ado, and everything always points back to Ado. I know Yollen is hidden, whatever that means, but even with this Current and a compass that points to it, that could just mean that you can follow the compass to the origin, and still not find Yolen, for any number of other reasons.

Have we ever seen Nale's Highspren?

Just a quick observation, Abidi said that he bathed in the blood of Radiants to maintain his sanity, and then he said that he would keep the Lightweavers to bleed for him. So, my suspicion is that he holds a specific grudge against Lightweavers, but doesn't much care what kind of Radiant blood he gets to bathe in

Welcome to the Shard! I really like your ideas here! I'm operating under the theory that Veil and Radiant and Formless are all Fortune Connections to versions of Shallan that could have been. Veil is the actual version of Shallan that grew up working for the Ghostbloods, Radiant grew up with her Herald mother, never breaking her Oaths to Testament and learning how to fight and be a Knight, and Formless is the version of Shallan that succumbed to the heartbreaking childhood that Shallan actually had. Your theory here about Radiant representing the part of Shallan that is still bonded to Testament really fits in with my theory about Radiant. Radiant is guiding Shallan through the Oaths/Truths that Radiant spoke to Testament. So in a way, she does represent that bond, I just don't think that it is an actual manifestation of that bond, but rather....echoes of it. I really like your idea about Testament oaths leveling up Shallan's Soulcasting, while Pattern Oaths level up her Illumination, though I'd be curious to know the mechanics of that. It does seem like Shallan should be a lot better at Soulcasting than she is. I'm wondering if all bifurcated Bonds would work similarly, where one Spren in the Bond would start to provide access and efficiency in only one half of the Surges they provide. Which raises even more questions for a bifurcated bond between Spren of different orders. For instance, if someone were to bond both an Honorspren and a Highspren, they both share a single Surge, Gravitation, and then each provide a different secondary. So in that case would the Spren "share" Gravitation? It seems obvious that such a person would get greater abilities in the Gravitation department...perhaps even get resonances on both sides...There are a lot of possibilities with this.

Seems to me, thematically, Shallan fits "Truth" the best. Though, that depends entirely upon what is being referenced. Wind could be referring to the Great Spren Wind. It could also be referring to Kaladin, as the...for lack of a better term "personification" of Wind, or maybe the representative...the person who is closest to the entity known as Wind.... So, Truth could potentially be another Great Spren from Ado's time... Or it could be Shallan as the person getting closest to representing that? Or maybe Wind and Truth is literally just Wind(runner) and Truth(watcher) which would mean Renarin, most likely? I think I'm just sort of throwing out random thoughts at this point....

This seems to line up pretty well with most of my assumptions. The only caveat being Nalthian Awakening, due to its 'open' nature. She'd be able to reclaim Breaths this way, and at that point, would then become a Nalthian Awakener by default!

So, I've had more thoughts about this Shallan Identity thing, and what some limitations could possibly be. Could she recall Breath that was stored in an object? Probably. However, she would have to have a lot of knowledge before this would work. She'd have to know what Breaths are, and that they can be stored in objects, as well as the command to retrieve those Breaths. She would also need to know who stored them. I suspect she would also need to have Connection to that person. I think this might come in with her mental "snapshot" mnemonic device. So, if she knows what Breaths are, and that they are stored in an object, and that the person that stored them is Vasher, and she has taken a "photo" of Vasher, she could, in my theory, "be Vasher" and use the correct Command and retrieve those Breaths. Could she use a Coppermind? I think also possibly, though this one gets much more murky for me. As @alder24 stated, she has no Feruchemical powers. So, it could be this is a straight no, not without a medallion that gives her F-Copper. However, I could see it working under similar constraints as Breaths. She'd have to know what a coppermind is, that it is a coppermind, and know who stored their memories in it, and have a "snapshot" of that person. Under those circumstances, the Identity might be enough for her to access those memories stored. Though I feel like that is on very shaky footing as a theory.

I feel like "too clean" is a gross oversimplification of all of the things that would have to be true to make this work. First, you need to have a traumatic enough childhood experience to develop magic DID. Then, you also have to bond not one, but two Cryptics, and one of them needs to be "mostly dead" (to steal a phrase from Miracle Max). Brandon being the author who feels like limitations make magic better, I'm certain that this can't be a thing that she'd be able to just do willy nilly. She knows Drehy, they've been around each other before. Drawing out a Connection to someone that she is familiar with is probably very doable. Drawing out a Connection to a person she's never met, and has no idea who it could be? That probably wouldn't work. That would be the case of trying to use a keyed metal mind. She has to actually know who she's trying to be and be able to draw forth that Fortune Connection somehow.

Well, in my mind, they are somewhat the same thing. I think a combination of the already loosely defined "Identity" that is Shallan, mixed with her ability to "draw out" versions of people that "could be", she can also likely Connect to versions of people as they are and draw that into her Identity. I'm also wondering how much Shallan currently being in the CR might have an impact on her ability to do this. It may make it easier, or it may even make it possible.

I'm pretty well convinced that Shallan's identities are more than just identities, and are actually capital I Identities, and she is Connected to various versions of herself that could have been. Radiant is the Shallan that would have grown up with her Herald mother teaching her how to be a Knight. Veil is the Shallan that grew up working for the Ghostbloods, learning spy craft and the like. Formless is the Shallan that would have succumbed to the depression and misery of growing up in the Davar household with that Unmade lurking about, and the abusive father... I think she's already doing things along the same lines as Forgery, but instead of re-writing her Connections and Identity to make it so that she was born somewhere else, to different parents, in different situations, she is instead drawing upon the Connections to what could have been had things gone differently. Much like she's able to draw versions of people that could have been. She's just actually able to incorporate those people into herself.

Yes, he was the first to experiment with surgebinding on Ashyn, was the surgebinder that discovered how to worldhop, and it's my understanding that he was the one that enabled the mass exodus, I think I might be assuming that he was the Bondsmith that amplified the Elsecalling to get them to Roshar. Whether or not he still has those abilities is honestly up for debate in my head. It doesn't seem like too far a stretch to me to assume that he could at least find some way to access those abilities now...he's something like 7000 years old, and at the very least used to have powers not related to Honorblades or being a Herald at all. It would not be unreasonable to assume that he'd be able to forge some kind of Connection to enable him to regain at least some amount of access to those abilities. None of that seems out of the question to me, and feels like it gets ignored quite often in these conversations.

Another thing to note on this topic is that, in real world D.I.D. cases, each "personality" is more or less difficult to "merge" anyway, at least from what I can gather from relevant media. I'm not a doctor or anything like that, but I don't think that Radiant sticking around, or being more or less difficult to incorporate into the main personality gives much weight to Radiant being something more than Veil was.

The Wind watching Kaladin as a child is not the same as Hesina/Lirin being watched by the Wind as a child, or knowing the Wind as a child. While it doesn't really rule them out, neither Lirin nor Hesina are really described by "historian and philosopher". I think that there are many possibilities, but neither of them seem very high on the list to me.

I like this idea, but it seems to be thwarted by what the epigraphs have told us so far. We are explicitly being told that the Wind could speak up specifically because of the change to Todium. So, if the Wind was able to talk back then, why? And how? And why did that change for another...20 something years and then need Todium to be able to reach out to Kal?

Assuming that Kal and Szeth both survive the encounter, and both maintain their Oaths and bonds... Honestly, it could be Kal and Syl survive, and those are the two witnesses.... hmmmmmmmm

Well, we know for sure that the Wind has talked to Kaladin, so he's an obvious source. I think the other source being Szeth is interesting. Could be that the Wind talks to him when they are in Shinovar? I'm wondering who else it might be besides Kaladin, mostly because we haven't really seen anything but the voices of the damned talking to Szeth. He's got a lot of weirdness going on....

So, we now know that the author of the Epigraphs considers themselves a Historian and Philosopher, so I feel like that really narrows down the field of people that it could be. I don't think either Szeth or Kaladin would count themself as such. Also, the writing and "voice" of the epigraphs don't point me to either of them. I'm thinking it's Shallan or Jasnah

Ok, so, given the previously released chapters from WoT, with Kalak telling Shallan that she is connecting to the SR and Fortune in some way to draw people as they could be or could have been, I posit the theory that ALL of her personalities, including Formless and any others that may be lurking around, are, in fact, her own connections to herself as she could have been. This wouldn't make Radiant intrinsically different than, say, Veil, as they would both be alternate versions of Shallan. However, there could be some shenanigans going on with Radiant, as that would likely be the version of Shallan that didn't break oaths with Testament, made the 4th oath, got the armor, and all that.

Why does any of this conversation make you think the "voice" knows that Odium's Vessel has changed? Just curious, you seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on it knowing about TOdium, and nothing about the exchange seems to indicate knowledge, or the lack thereof, of T's Ascension. I think it's very interesting that the voice can seem to hear Kal's thoughts So, what do we know about things being able to speak into minds? My brain isn't working very well today, but I think that Ruin could speak into the minds of people that had spikes, or were mentally unstable enough, but I don't think he could hear their thoughts? Would Tanavast's CS have that ability? Why would it have that ability? It's no longer got the juice of a Shard behind it. Whoever was talking to Gavilar also couldn't seem to read his mind. This leads me further from Tanavast being the voice. Considering Stormfather has melded with Tanavast, and Stormfather can't read the mind of Gavilar, or Dalinar from what I can remember.... and the voice says "come to me" right after Kaladin thinks about going to Shinovar for Dalinar, and the voice says to listen to the Bondsmith. We "know" that the CS of Tanavast merged with the Stormfather somehow, so I don't see how going to Shinovar would be "coming" to Tanavast. My guess is it is either the Unmade that seems to have taken residence in Shinovar, or it's BAM. But right now, I feel like BAM is my answer for everything, so I suspect it is wrong.

I think this is conflating a couple of things. That line does imply that sealing BAM away was "for her own good" a little bit, but the fact still remains that she was providing forms of power, and they needed to stop that from happening as well. However, to the best of our knowledge, based on what we've gleaned from multiple sources, but mainly from the trial in Lasting Integrity, they didn't know they were "risking" anything with Recreance. Now, we've been given a lot of story about how the Radiants at the time had found out that Ashyn was destroyed with Surgebinding, and how this had come up repeatedly in the past, but Tanavast had always been able to convince everyone that it was gonna be fine and that they could continue Surgebinding and they weren't going to destroy the planet. But, at this time, Tanavast was raving mad about it and couldn't smooth it over. All of that to say, they didn't know the Recreance was going to cause the Deadeyes, and we don't know for sure that they knew there was a deeper issue with trapping BAM, so they wouldn't "just release her". So far, the Recreance and her trapping are only related in the fact that trapping her is what created the issue with broken Oaths causing Deadeyes. The Recreance itself was a sacrifice made by the Radiants and their spren to prevent THEM (Radiants) from destroying the planet. Just like trapping BAM was ALSO to prevent her from destroying the planet... I think

So, just my interpretation of things. I've been under the impression that the Iri's "Many from One" kind of religious belief could simultaneously be an echo of the Shattering, as well as a literal interpretation of their creation. The one Shard we have the least amount of information on is "Prudence/Wisdom/Intellect/Whatever the name is that we haven't been given yet". It's my belief that this Shard either completely or partially Splintered themselves, and made the Iriali to go out into the Cosmere and experience all that they can. This belief comes from their myth of "the One knew everything but had experienced nothing. And so the One became Many in order to experience all things. As each experience is different, it brings completeness to the One. Eventually, all will be gathered back in when the sum of land is attained and they will once again become One." In my opinion, the description of the One knowing everything, and having experience with nothing, would align well with the vague description of a Shard with the Intent similar to Wisdom/Prudence. How exactly that all would work is a bit beyond me at the moment, though I suspect that the Shard in question probably didn't completely Splinter, and left at least a small chunk of themself whole, so as to guide the Iri through their Long Trail. If this is true, it seems likely to me that this Shard is either in hiding somewhere, not Invested to a planet, or has taken up residence in some uninhabited planet somewhere, and exists in some kind of "stasis", able to take in the experiences of the individual splinters of themself from afar.

So I think I know that Nightblood's sentience is related specifically to his Command, essentially the Breaths had to find a way to make a sword understand "Evil" to be able to follow the command "Destroy Evil". I'm wondering, and I think part of the original question was about this: Is there a way to create a new race of living beings, from Awakening. Some command, and Heightening level, maybe with the same, undefined and nebulous "help" that Endowment gave to the creation of Nightblood, that would create an entirely new Sentient life? Perhaps something that could replicate some way, make more of them on its own? I'm also now curious if you could even make an Awakened construct that could actually control other Awakened constructs? So in the case of building a body out of Awakened organs...Can you actually have the brain of that body in direct control over the rest of the body? I'm thinking of how our brains work, how there is a signal that is telling our heart to keep beating, and our lungs to keep breathing, and our muscles to contract to perform the movements. How these signals are direct signals, and not something like a spoken Command, or anything like that. I know that Awakened constructs can use tools, but can an Awakened construct subconsciously tell the Awakened muscle fibers to contract, if they are separately Awakened in this manner?