listerfeend

My point was sort of: why does he do anything he doesn't like to do? It's not very clear to me why he would refuse to do something one second, and then decide to do it the next, just because Dalinar says so. There hasn't really been anything that SF said 'no' to Dalinar about, and stuck to it. It's always been Dalinar: Tell me! SF: NO! Dalinar: TELL ME RIGHT NOW SF: Fine.... That seems likely, but he has been doing that basically from the moment they Bonded. So, SF has known that this was going to be the path from the jump? That seems like it's sort of obvious, since SF was actively seeking out someone to give the visions to. Seems likely he'd know exactly what he was looking for, but man, things still don't make a ton of sense with him and why he went to Gav, and decided to go with Dal after saying he'd never trust a Kholin again... There's a lot that is going to need to be explained about the SF... I can't wait

What is weird about this to me is: why would he relent after being pushed by Dalinar? Honestly, it makes no sense to me that Stormfather would have all these ulterior motives and act so suspicious (in retrospect), but then cave the second Dalinar puts his hands on his hips and gives him the stern disapproving dad stare. What can Dalinar do to the Stormfather if SF refuses to divulge the information? If he can lie and omit and be all sneaky and stuff, why come clean on anything?

Well, I don't think that is a resonance, as we're told the resonance of Windrunners is that they get more squires, and we know that the interaction between two Invested Arts like that only has one outcome. So, I think you may be on the right track as far as the ability, but not the type of ability Substantiation comes to mind for Lightweavers. That one seems pretty straightforward, Transformation on Illumination. I wonder if there is something that goes the other way as well, Illumination on Transformation? I'm not sure what that would look like. Elsecallers : Transportation and Transformation - so I suspect that they can Soulcast at a distance? There seems to be a proximity element to regular Soulcasting, so maybe they have an extended range? Willshapers: Transportation and Cohesion - The only thing I can think of is "Molecular restructuring at a distance" ...I was going to go through all of the Orders and make guesses, but I don't feel like I'm creative enough to do this lol

Having grown up in a military family, and been military myself, I have a pretty different view of Dalinar's actions regarding the relationship he has with his family. Duty gets in the way. Always. Being a Highprince is even more of a duty than being a general, and it comes with sacrifices that most of us aren't willing to make, especially around personal relationships. As Lan Mandragoran was often fond of pointing out, "Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain." I also think people tend to gloss over the fact that Odium was specifically targeting Dalinar, mostly through the Thrill, to essentially goad him into doing the most heinous acts that he has ever done, culminating with the burning of the Rift and the death of his wife. It feels entirely unfair to Dalinar to judge him as if he was the sole person responsible for everything he was doing. He was being manipulated by Gavilar, his brother and his king, from the jump. Manipulated by Odium, a basically all powerful god with nefarious intent, through the Thrill, which we now know is a Splinter of that very same nefarious god. At the time, they just thought the Thrill was something people experienced, like an adrenaline dump, but stronger. Now we know that it is FAR worse than that. Has Dalinar made mistakes, and done some very naughty things? Definitely. Does he own some share of the responsibility for the Rift? Definitely. Maybe even most of it, he took responsibility for it all in Oathbringer, but I think that is more about trying to make amends and live up to his own standards than it is about being fully 100% responsible for all of the actions he took. His alcoholism was an escape from the PTSD he was suffering due to those very same acts, something MANY military vets succumb to IRL. Am I saying that Dalinar is completely guilt free and Adolin has no right to be mad at him? Of course not. Like it or not, responsible or not, Evi, Adolin's beloved mother, died because of actions Dalinar took, whether he was in a mental state to be held accountable for those actions or not. No one would be able to easily forgive their father for that. I'm also frustrated that Dalinar hasn't even seemed to make an effort to talk to Adolin about it, but neither has Adolin. In fact, Adolin has made it pretty clear he doesn't want Dalinar to talk to him about it. Plus, there is kind of the end of the world happening. Sort of kind of bigger fish to fry in the grand scheme of things. Duty being as heavy as it is. Yes, all of that, excepting PERHAPS going off to the Shattered Plains to seek retribution, all of that definitely IS more important that his sons. We are talking about the end of the world. Millions of people dying, millions more made refugees. Yes, dealing with all of that is absolutely MORE important than his relationship to anyone, including his sons. That is his duty, to go where his psychopathic brother tells him to. Could he have said no? Presumably. Would literally anyone else in his position have said no? Probably not. That's his job. His responsibility. Unfortunately, PTSD and alcoholism go hand in hand. This is a world where their only idea of helping the mentally ill is putting them in a dark room and forgetting about them until they "get better". What other outcome do we expect? I realize I come across as making a lot of excuses for Dalinar here, but I really feel like he deserves at least a BIT of understanding, and right now he's doing his best to save the planet. Adolin is just as capable of extending an olive branch as Dalinar, maybe more so, since Dalinar clearly feels like Adolin doesn't want to hear anything about it from him. Kaladin and Shallan both belong to Orders, and classes of society, that enable these kinds of relationships. Dalinar was a Highprince, and is a King, and was the only Bondsmith until very recently. It's not like he's in a position to actively cultivate friendships and personal relationships in the same way they are.

Honestly, none of that makes that much impact in my brain. If you can get it into space, you can get it from there to literally anywhere else. It's size doesn't make much of a difference in zero gravity, it's not large enough to have a substantial gravity well, and, again, you have an entire Order of people who's entire schtick is messing around with gravity. Bondsmith augmented Elsecalling to get it to space, big lashings to get it moving. Or, I recently had an idea for gravitation fabrials that might do the trick. Gravity compression at the front, expansion at the back, and boom, warp drive. Or maybe the opposite, either way. My thought with moving the Sibling to a new "vessel" for this is exactly what you are talking about, though. My thoughts being that the Sibling can provide the Investiture to run the entire thing, as well as all of the functionality to make it livable.

Really feels like Adolin's arc with Maya precludes him from being the champ, in my head. Like, regardless of the reasons why someone becomes Odium's champion, even if it is presented as a reasonable conclusion, they are being set up as "the bad guy". I don't feel like we'd have the arc with Maya AND them becoming an antagonist. Just doesn't really feel right to me. The only person in 2500+ years to reach through to a deadeye and (presumably) restore them, ALSO decides to join with the forces of evil? That just doesn't sit right with me. I'm not sure who Brandon could be talking about though. Also, here is the WoB being referenced I think that if it were Adolin that were making the decision, he probably wouldn't have brought him up there. He also says "you will have to read it and see if you can guess who". He doesn't really say that it's going to be obvious

Yes, he did shoot down the theory that it is a spaceship, but not that it could be one, as you stated. I really don't think that its size or shape much matters when you have people that can manipulate gravity, and teleport things around. Just have to get that massive tower into space, and then you can do whatever you want with it. Could they maybe transfer the Sibling into something that would be more suited to spaceflight? I feel like that is definitely possible, and would solve your issues of the size and structure of Urithuru as it stands, while still making "Urithuru" (the things that it can do) the spaceship.

So, the issue I have is these terms basically mean things. Ascending is a thing in the cosmere that has pretty specific connotations (gaining the power of a Shard, either through becoming the Vessel of said Shard, or becoming an Avatar of said Shard). Avatar has a specific connotation as well (a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomouse piece of themself). I know that comes across as exceedingly pedantic, but without well defined terms, everything becomes a complete mess. Whatever the Wind is (I've heard arguments that it can't be a Spren, but I don't find them particularly compelling), we know that the Wind is NOT a Shard. Therefor, it doesn't feel possible for Kal to Ascend or become and Avatar of said entity. @alder24 mentions Champion of the Wind, which is a position that Kal could certainly hold. Bonding the Wind feels like a thing that could happen. It seems likely that Kal and the Wind definitely are going to end up in some kind of relationship like those, but I don't think that Ascension or Avatar-hood are the correct terms. Honestly, I don't disagree with your premise at all, I think I was just rejecting the terminology being used. Whatever the Wind is, it is smaller than a Shard, and will run into the same issues that BAM had, why Ulim called her "too small a god"

I am 10000% on board with the Urithuru is a Spaceship theory. It makes SO MUCH sense that a structure that has it's own life support system that makes living on top of a mountain possible could be altered to make living in space possible. This could be a way to introduce something like that. I think there are definitely other ways to make that come about that isn't rehashing another attack on Urithuru though. To be clear, it's entirely possible that we will see the Skybreakers attack Urithuru. That DOES make sense tactically. And I'll be so on board and waiting with baited breath to find out how Navani and Co make it through that. I ALSO feel like it will be redundant if that is the way it goes down lol Nothing in that statement says that Rayse discovered it by suffering the consequences himself. It could also be that he made experiments with Ambition before splintering the Shard. In fact that may be the reason he did rule out taking up another Shard. He had to abandon plan to take up Ambition because it came with conditions attached. Am I the only one that read that as "Odium got trapped here based on a formal agreement" and that is how he discovered the consequences of a formal agreement that binds the power?

Even if it succeeds, it will be boring while it is happening, because it will be a rehash of RoW, and everyone will assume it's going to fail again. And then, if it doesn't, and the The Sibling DOES end up unmade, well, what was the point of RoW and getting the Tower going and Bonding the Sibling and everything...It just doesn't really make a lot of sense in my head

It makes sense tactically, for sure. Narratively it is boring, and doomed to failure. As a Shard, especially a recently Ascended Vessel of a Shard, T'Odium could theoretically just teleport everyone to Shadesmar at a whim. They are all "given" to him fully. He can do what ever he wants with them.

That's basically what I'm thinking as well... Not to mention, Brandon has said in the past that one of the main reasons for the switch of Odium was the fact that Rayse had already been thwarted several times, and each time they are thwarted, a villain's.. reputation is damaged, basically beyond repair. I feel the same could be said for something like this. They've attacked Urithuru twice now, and failed both times, them trying a third time, and likely failing, would be very out of character for Brando himself. And they would basically have to fail at it at this point. There is absolutely no way we went through RoW only to have the Sibling, Navani the Bondsmith, and all this other development on the Urithuru front just tossed away as it is overtaken by the forces of Odium.

I agree. I also think that with the conversation between Navani and the Sibling with how they can do things the ancient Radiants couldn’t, she will be instrumental with defending the tower. Using it in a way it hasn’t before. I struggle with this because that feels like it would just be a rehash of RoW at that point. The Tower was already taken over, under attack, etc... So, even if this is what happens, it seems like it won't be a major point of the conflict?

Seems possible Frost's Sister and Valor could be one and the same?

Why do we assume that the Wind is something that Kal can Ascend to or become the Avatar of? The Wind is definitely not a Shard, and thus far, only Shards have Avatars, or can be Ascended to. This feels a lot like someone suggesting that Lift is Nightwatcher's Avatar, or that someone can "Ascend" to becoming the Stormfather....

Yes, it definitely does seem to be within the power of a Shard, especially at "just Ascended" power levels. Edit: Actually, the more I think about this, the less I think it's possible. Could Odium manifest all of the stuff they need, the ships, weapons, everything else? Sure. Could he communicate the plan to all of the Fused and the Skybreakers? Also, yeah, I think so. Could he even give them perpendicularities and transport them to Shadesmar? Yes. I struggle to accept that that many individuals could be mobilized so efficiently within the time frame given. Even giving all of them all of the instructions, it still takes time to move people. Get people into position. People are the breaking point in this. And while the Fused are certainly more than "people", they are ancient spirits, after all, they are still individuals with their own failings, and I just can't see the plan working like this in such a short time frame... I definitely leave the door open for this being the case, I just... It would definitely need a LOT of very good explanation

There are skulls and twisted bodies on the wall (pillars?) behind him, I suspect Taln is being depicted on Braize? Also, is Tanavast depicted on the Shattered Plains here?

The coppermind goes on to say that he became a squire, and Adolin talks about him not getting a Spren and deciding to give up. I think the Coppermind is basically lumping Windrunner Squires in with "full fledged" Windrunners in the that opening line However, he is mentioned kind of a lot in these chapters. I wouldn't be surprised to find out he's an Off Worlder of some kind. Perhaps a Ghostblood operative, perhaps the Kandra, there are a lot of options here.

I'm sure you're right.. Seems to me there is always a WoB lol

Well, if what has been said about being able to swear the 5th right away with a new bond is accurate, then I think we can assume that, thus far, all of the Truths that we have seen Shallan speak were more about bringing Testament back, than they were about progressing her bond with Pattern. So, basically, I think she's been 3rd Ideal this entire time, carried over from childhood. I don't really know if what we saw under the beads with her truth "I am afraid of myself, I always have been" could be described as a burst of Light though. We get a description of Light reflecting of the beads emanating from her eyes. Which is not the same kind of "burst" descriptions we've seen with Kaladin. With Kaladin, he swears an Ideal, and there is a literal BURST of light the surges through him, leaving a Glyph on the ground around him, etc... This was a LOT more subtle than that... I do think her "I'm afraid of myself, I always have been" truth is her 4th Truth, though, and it could be that the effects of swearing an ideal are different between Orders, no glyphs emblazoned upon the ground for Lightweavers. It could also be different because she spoke that Truth in Shadesmar, that could account for the differences as well. Shallan being able to swear all these Truths as a child still makes me extremely uncomfortable...I don't know how a child is even capable of making these kinds of commitments....

I read what they were saying as "Odium picks someone who has already been harmed" which I think would break the rules, but I think what you are saying is more along the lines of what Palindrome was intending.

You say that they've been answered, but what they've been answered with has been... pretty definitively against Shallan being Chana, in my opinion. I've been on that thread before, and I remain not only unconvinced, but convinced that the theory doesn't hold up, and Shallan's line about "finding some pieces of herself" doesn't change any of that. You still have to contend with entire flashback sequences needing to be thrown out completely, Shallan not reacting when Jezrien died, none of the Illusion Honorblades being missing from Shinovar for Chana to even be able to do this, and many many more issues that are NOT solved by Shallan being Chana, but ARE solved by Shallan's mom being her. For instance, we know Taln didn't break. We know a Herald died the night of Gavilar's assassination We know that Shallan's mom died extremely close to that event, we just don't have exact confirmation that she died that very night. Everything, so far, points to Shallan's mother being the Herald Chana. That would technically break it on Odium's part, too. They are each to send a champion who is unharmed by either sides forces. Since Odium has not, to my knowledge, chosen a Champion at this time, even choosing a Champion that has been harmed should break the agreement, no?

I'm sorry, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion. For Chana to be Shallan would be SO freaking wild as to make no sense. She has an entire family that would remember her as an infant. So you're speculating that a Herald became an infant? Or you're thinking that somewhere along the line, Herald Chana decided to become a child? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Chana being her mom still makes the most sense in my head. I can't imagine that Pattern wouldn't notice that he is bonded to a Herald. Or Kalak, for that matter. Especially not Kalak. I'm still very much convinced that Radiant and Veil are different outcomes of Shallan, like you would see while burning Malatium. Or maybe Veil is, and Radiant is a connection to the "ideal" of her mother Chana, but I still can't see Radian AS Chana, that doesn't really track for me...

I must say, Lift is a Bondsmith theory seems very compelling to me at the moment. More so than Dawnshard, but that is more for narrative reasons than anything else. It seems crazy to me that there would be 2 (3?) Dawnshards on Roshar at the same time. Lift being a Bondsmith though? Her being able to talk to basically anyone? Regrowth during the suppression at the tower, invading visions, etc... All of this feels very compelling and pushes me towards Bondsmith Lift Theory

That's basically my thought. I also wouldn't be surprised if Navani's plate spren would be a mix of whatever the platespren of Nightwatcher and Stormfather would be. The going theory for Dalinar would be Gloryspren, Nightwatcher Lifespren make the most sense. So maybe Sibling plate spren would be both?