Jaconis

Yeah I would tend to agree, it's a pretty big question mark to be left after her flashback book, and I'm a little frustrated by it too. That said, there's still stuff about Kaladin we don't know. Who is Tarah and what happened to her? What happened to Tukks? Two characters off the top of my head Kaladin has mentioned in both books and we've been given little information on. Part of me can understand leaving stuff out of the flashbacks this early, no matter who's they are. Otherwise, that character would have nothing left to reveal about themselves for 8-9 books. Another part of me, like you, is frustrated that we didn't learn that stuff, especially when there is other, seemingly insignificant bits that were included in those scenes.

I've been wondering this as well. The best I can up with is that, except for Lightweavers and possibly others we don't know about, they do have to be exact, 29th the reasoning being that they sort of pop into the person's head, and they just know them. While not definitive, I would think if only the sentiment of the oath mattered, such an emphasis wouldn't be placed on Kaladin being surprised that he knew the Words (always capitalized). The Stormfather...maybe he's just the guardian of the gate so to speak. He knows all the Immortal Words, and only legit proclamations with proper intent get the go-ahead. This would make sense if he was one of the original Bondsmith spren, as their patron seemed to have been involved with putting the checks in place

I agree mostly. It's such a major thing that, because I have confidence in Brandon not to have missed something of this magnitude, I believe there's only two possibilities.1) It was purposefully left out for a bigger truth/reveal later on; or 2) We don't have enough information about Lightweavers or the orders in general, so we are assuming that it has to work the same for Shallan as it did for Kaladin, which may or may not be the case. Also, to contribute to the actual topic. I really enjoyed Shallan's arc, especially compared to WoK. I think it was well done all around: pacing, development, reveals, excitement. It left me feeling bad for the entire family, except for the mother and whatever dumbass society she was associated with. Sympathy especially for her father for the terrible situation he was put in. That said, why couldn't he have told people she had gone crazy and attacked her daughter, and he killed her to defending Shallan? To protect her reputation? The lie wasn't great for that either.

So I wanted to start a topic about something I haven't seen a lot of discussion about, and that is of the Ryshadium. Ryshadium, we've seen so far, are uncommonly intelligent and loyal for a horse, and I think uncommon is putting it lightly. They are massive creatures, massive enough to be perfect to carry a person in Shardplate. In WoR (don't have book with me, so I can't find exact quote), it is said that originally Ryshadium were for the Radiants. In a WoB from a recent signing, he said that there is investiture involved with Ryshadium. With this information, I think there is some discussion to be had; first, theories on what exactly the deal is with Ryshadium, and second, if/when Kaladin/Shallan will get his/hers. For the first I'm not quite realmatic-savvy enough to come up with a reasonable guess there, but I'll still throw out some ideas. Perhaps an existing horse somehow gets infused with significant amounts of stormlight? Or the Radiant's spren bonds with it similar to how it bonds with the human? (Now I'm picturing Kaladin in his glowing Shardplate holding his glowing Shardblade spear atop his glowing Ryshadium...lots of glowing). Alternatively, if it's not an existing horse, could the spren BE the horse in a similar way to the Blades? I find this option less likely. Someone who understands realmatics better than me want to chime in? For why Ryshadium still exist, it seems reasonable that once the Radiant's mounts started breeding, their offspring would retain their special abilities, although I don't know how that works with any option above. As for when Kaladin well get one, if he does (why would you bother with a horse when you can fly? Unless the house can fly too...), I think this could be what he gets with one of the remaining Oaths. He has two more Oaths left and Shardplate to get still, but otherwise nothing else to "level up" with. He's already got full use of his powers and his Blade. Aside from perhaps perfect stormlight holding, I think his remaining two oaths will get him Shardplate and a Ryshadium. Thoughts?

Where are you getting that each order has two sets of divine attributes?

I agree with general feelings of people above re: Kaladin's final two Ideals. Let me first say that I love the glorious scenes that come about as a result of these self-realization moments (him speaking the Ideala). That being said, I sincerely hope he doesn't pull more crap like he did in WoR to get there, making horrible decisions to the point of losing Syl (and taking entire books to get there!). I don't think he will; his issue in WoR in particular was one that, while I didn't like it, had to happen and happen the way that it did. He had to make the mistake and realize it for what it was before he could let go of his hatred. I don't think he'll lose Syl again, both because it doesn't make as much sense for these supposed oaths and because Sanderson likely won't to repeat plot lines.

I could be wrong, but the way I read it was that the spren only died if the bonded Radiant broke the oaths. This leaves open the possibility for the spren to have survived if the radiant died while still honoring their oaths. (I'm not quite sure how though, as "dying" for the spren is losing their sentience, so whether the human dies or breaks their oaths, the human still isn't there to provide the tie to the physical realm. Maybe if the human dies, the spren can return to the cognitive in full, with no sentience in the physical until they bond again? Perhaps when oaths are broken, the spren is trapped in the physical, and therefore can't get their mind back.) This would allow the Stormfather and others to have survived yet still have been bonded at some point. That said, one worry I have, although I don't think likely, is that if Dalinar does break his oaths, and the Stormfather losses his sentience...that could be very bad. I see relentless highstorms going every which way at all times.

I agree that I don't think I would consider either better than the other. They are my two favorite authors, and both have different strengths. You hit the nail on the head; Rothfuss' prose are unmatched, but the plot, not to say that it's bad by any means, can be a little meandering and the to this point is a little bit typical fantasy (orphan boy grows to be powerful magician and fights the bad guys he finds). I think the third book promises to break from that, but we may never know. Sanderson's plots, they always seem to resonate with me. There are so many scenes that I literally get chills reading, and none of the books do this more for me than WoK. I'm not ashamed to admit that there are times, even after half a dozen rereads/relistens, I almost want to weep for the...goodness...for a lack of a better word, of the characters.

I haven't seen this posted anywhere, but I've certainly not been through the whole forum, so I apologize if I've missed it. I've been thinking about how the currency of the world (all across Roshar? Or just Alethkar?) also happens to be the fuel for the world's magic. I don't think that can be a coincidence. For one thing, could this valuable resource really have been used for mere currency in the time of the Radiants, when they knew exactly what stormlight could be used for? Did they make sure they were always the wealthiest to ensure they had adequate stormlight? That doesn't seem to fit with their ideals; hoarding all the wealth to maintain their power, while others may starve for lack of funds? That doesn't seem very honorable. No, I think there was a different currency used by the people of the world, or possibly just a system of bartering. I DO think that the Radiants hoarded and carried around pouches of spheres, but not for wealth. I think they carried it around as a constantly available source of stormlight. Just as people have theorized that the Lighteyes became the noblemen of the nation because people associated light eyes with Radiants, I think the common people saw their idols carrying spheres and assumed they were valuable. Combine that with the rarity of gemstones and its easy to see how they became a currency. I'm not really sure this has anything to do with the grand scheme the book, or that it's important at all. Maybe Dalinar will figure it out from his visions and will try to debase the currency? That would just make the other highprinces even angrier with him. Anyway, thoughts? Problems with the idea?

I've seen these hints about Kelsier before, but I'm not sure what they reference. I read the Mistborn trilogy and AoL, admittedly awhile ago, but I don't remember anything about him obtaining any part of shard. Did I miss something or is it in another book?

DIVISION! You're right Shardlet, that would explain the situation well enough for me. I was looking for the surge to help explain it, and completely missed the other one attached to the most likely Order we're seeing. (Sorry for the double post, got a little over eager...)

From the below website: http://www.physics4kids.com/files/motion_friction.html (Admittedly, it's a science for kids site, but it was the first thing on Google, and it explains it well enough)

But you're still moving the water, which doesn't want to move. It would still be harder than moving through air at any rate because air has less mass and therefore requires less force to move. If lack of friction was all that was needed to eliminate fluid resistance, then the shape of an object would have no bearing on its aerodynamic qualities. Only it's surface material would matter, which is not the case.

I agree that it's likely the friction surge. That said, and I'm no scientist, just an engineer, but friction isn't what causes water resistance, correct? The resistance comes from displacing the mass of water that's in the space your trying to move your foot through. Lowering your coefficient of friction to zero would see no significant increase in ease of moving through water, because your leg still needs to move the water, right?Surface tension wouldn't help either. Like you say Shardlet, the best that could do in my mind is allow you to walk ON the water, Jesus-style. Unless it's the unknown surge, I still think friction is the most likely, with either a scientific goof on Sanderson's part or a lack of understanding of aerodynamic mechanics on mine. Edit:I suppose it could be atmospheric pressure; somehow create an aerodynamic wall of outward pressing air that would slice through water, but Dalinar makes no mention of seeing the water move in front of the radiant.

Does anyone else feel like Jasnah isn't quite right? Let's look at the order and spren we know the most about. I think, no matter how else that chart gets categorized, if at all, it's safe to say that Honorspren are nearly entirely of Honor. Assuming one spren type per knight order, we know Honorspren make Windrunners. Windrunners' surges are gravity and air pressure, which are both quintessential natural phenomenon that have nothing to do with emotions. I think these potentially incorrect categories are the result of lack of knowledge of the spren's true nature. In other words, Honorspren were thought to be windspren until Syl "woke up". I've long thought that flamespren are actually something like Couragespren and world be the binding spren for Order 3.

I agree. Chapters and number of pages obviously don't have to correlate but I think it's a reasonable guess. There are 75 chapters in WoK, plus prelude, prologue, epilogue and 9 interludes. And it's shorter than WoR. If these six chapters (counting the prologue) are really 10% of the book, we are only getting 55-65 chapters, where the shorter book has closer to 90. Could just be shorter chapters, but I think the numbers aren't book page numbers, maybe manuscript page numbers?

I think, based on the above quote, the Desolations were Odium's attempts to defeat Honor (and possibly Cultivation). "He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he had suffered so often." We know there were many desolations. I think the Oathpact was an agreement between Odium and Honor that stated Odium could only attack the world at certain times or with limited power, and in exchange Honor's Heralds would be forced to go to Odium's "realm" where Odium would be allowed to do whatever he wanted to them. Thus when nearly all the Heralds chose to not return to Odium, he was no longer required to uphold his end of the bargain. It may even have been that Taln alone was restraining Odium's influence while he stayed there, and his failure was that he could no longer endure the torture, returning to the physical world and allowing Odium to be free to do what he wants. On a separate subject, does anyone else think Odium may be responsible for Vorin teachings since the Sunmaker? Sadeas' POV sparked this for me. He talks of how training soldiers and fighting are a man's greatest goals, which would only open them up to the thrill.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Pewter/Pewter (or at least I don't think anyone has, sorry if I missed it). We're talking about near infinite strength! I can't remember if tapping a pewtermind increases toughness in the same way that burning Pewter does, but I would think it would at least to a certain extent. They aren't many uses that I can imagine except for being a nigh unstoppable warrior. I wonder who would win out in a fight, a gold/gold or pewter/pewter...

Returned are splinters of Endowment, so that doesn't necessarily mean Aona or Skai are dead. That said, if Seons are splinters and here weren't any when Odiun visited, then that doesn't seem like it could be coincidence.

I'm not sure that the other nine would become honorspren. We know that we can make Surgebinders from spren other than honorspren, or at least this is what I'm inferrfing from the following quote from Nohadon I know I brought up this idea, but an argument against it that I haven't been able to explain away is Shallon's magic. Her "Truthspren" seem to be very different from Syl. And as far as we know, they weren't a different kind of spren before, nor does it appear that any one of the spren bound with her.

I'm a little late to the party for Elantris, as it was the last book of Brandon's that I read, but I have this to add. Do we know for sure that Aona and Skai are dead when the story of Elantris takes place? We obviously know that they are dead when Hoid? wrote the letter, but we don't know when that was. Presumably, it's during the time of WoK, (although it certainly doesn't have to be), which is hundreds of years after Elantris. In the letter, the writers says something like (heavily paraphrased), "you saw what happened with that fiasco, and the result is two dead shareholders and splintered shards." I don't think we know enough about the time of Elantris to say definitively they are dead or alive.

I just read the Ars Arcanum in the back of the book to double check, and I'm not sure that Seth and Kaladin are a part of different orders. I thought that the Three Lashings, all of which Szeth can do, used both Gravity and Pressure surges. A Basic and Full Lashing both used Gravity Surges, and the Full Lashing used Pressure Surges. I thought the difference between the two characters was the way in which they were getting their powers (Kaladin = through Syl, Szeth = something we don't know). Also, I'm not sure the lightning was anything different than ordinary Soulcasting. All we know that requires touch is Soulcasting with the fabrial. We have nothing that says the Surgebinding version of Soulcasting requires touch. The result of the lightning was nothing different than what we've seen with Soulcasting, so I just took it to still be the Transformation surge, and we don't know what Jasnah's other power is. EDIT: damnation my slow fingers! Mad_Scientist beat me to it!

This one in particular got my eye of the quotes. "Dozens of feet tall." We know for a fact that Parshendi, as we've seen them, are not dozens of feet tall; they are the same height as men, perhaps slightly taller. Admittedly, the rest of the quotes could easily apply to the Parshendi, but that doesn't mean they can't apply to other creatures as well. In my opinion, there are numerous descriptions of Voidbringers that could apply to the Parshendi OR to something else, and one description that CANNOT apply to the Parshendi. That, to me, means that the Voidbringers being described in these quotes are not the Parshendi as we see them. Orange blood in the prelude doesn't necessarily mean it came from the enemy of the Heralds. It could have just as easily come from allies. My third and final point in favor of Parshendi not being Voidbringers comes from the final battle of the book. When Dalinar is beaten by the Parshendi Shardbearer, the Parshendi speaks to Dalinar. Dalinar then realizes he's seen this event before in one of his visions, from the Parshandi's point of view. If the visions are from Honor, I find it unlikely that he could or would be using one of his enemy's minions as a "viewpoint." I think this is proof that the Parshendi are of Honor at minimum, although Odiun may have had a hand in their creation as well. This point obviously becomes invalid if the visions turn out to not be from Honor.

I apologize, I wasn't very clear. Obviously it's a dying person who said it, but I think it conveys Szeth's thoughts/feelings in the future, similar to how it is stated above the "friends behind, friends before" epigraph is likely of Kaladin.

You bring up an interesting point. I feel like they couldn't possibly have worked together based on their Shards' intents, but these oddities are very confusing. However, while we know that Honor's final recording is done after the Heralds have been fighting in the Desolations, the time frame Honor is referring to isn't very clear. You seem to think he's saying that he shouldn't have been surprised Odium came after him when they had been battling for centuries. I'm not sure that's what he means. I think he is saying that he shouldn't have been surprised Odium came after him the first place. His lack of preparation for what should have been an expected attack resulted in the Oathpact, which as stated above has some major obvious flaws. The Oathpact strikes me as something of a desperate Plan B. I think Honor may simply be expressing his regret that his lack of forethought resulted in this pact that was doomed to fail. I had a lot of trouble putting my thoughts down on this subject. If you're confused, it's likely my fault, not yours.