Underwater_Worldhopper

Seons and Spren are both Splinters, I could see one calling the other cousin. Either way, it's a clue for me as well. I'm not advocating that the Ambition Splinter theory is true. Or even that it's likely, for that matter, just that there's no evidence against it. I FOUND IT: You guys have no idea how relieved I am, I've spent like a proper 5 hours trying to find this T-T. But yes, this WoB says to me that pure Shardic mass is not the only factor in play in Splintering a Shard, at least not once you know what you're doing. Mistborn Spoilers: Why would it bind you? Unless Ambition had somehow managed to fully Invest herself into a planet by the time Odium got to her, he wouldn't be binding himself to anything. You yourself said that Ambition was probably Splintered in outer space. You can't be bound to empty space. The Ambition version of the Dor would not be unkeyed. Why do you say that? The Dor needs to be purified to become unkeyed. He would have needed to get rid of the Investiture somehow since leaving it in the Spiritual Realm would have led to it either acquiring a new Vessel or gaining sentience itself. Just as you say that we would have known about it by now, he must have done something else, and that's what I believe the "Something at least a little better" is that Rayse has figured out. I thought he may have pushed it into the Physical Realm in the middle of space, but that would have just formed a Perpendicularity. That's why I said that it would have been found by now, and you apparently agree. I can't actually find that quote about Honor's pieces, can you quote it here? And he may not have done anything to Honor's Investiture due to fear of Cultivation, not because he didn't know how to do it. As we said, he didn't do a repeat of DnD with Ambition's Investiture, so he'd have devised some new way of getting rid of it, something he just couldn't do on Roshar without exposing himself to Cultivation. As for "fixing it", it may just be an empty threat, since we know Odium can't kill the Stormfather without risking an attack from Cultivation. The pieces can always become sentient on their own. A Shard's worth of Investiture would need to be spread very thin to stop it from gaining sentience. And how would he split it apart, what is "the middle of nowhere"? Investiture can't be spread out in the SR, it doesn't have locations. So it has to be either the CR or PR, and spreading it out in the CR would have similar effects as the Dor (and it would be found, as we said). Odium wouldn't want to recreate the Dor, but to avoid that he'd need to spread it out, and the problem repeats itself. I can only imagine there's a bunch of UliDaium beads floating around in space (in the PR) somewhere. What is Splintering anyway, fundamentally? What's going on Realmatically to the Investiture? If I Splinter a Shard but leave it all untouched in the SR, will it just coalesce back into a single Shard again? If yes, how do you separate it without shoving it out of the SR? If no, why? True, but the point is that he would have taken advantage of having so much Investiture sitting around to create heavily Invested Entities before doing whatever he did to the rest of the Shard. Exactly. I was arguing specifically that he didn't repeat that same process with Ambition, else someone would have found her Investiture by now. That's fine. So long as the theory itself makes sense and is possible, it doesn't really matter which one you prefer.

I imagine he needs more of it to grow it and then a smaller amount to maintain it. The Golem Suit probably only used the Investiture while growing, or used a non-appreciable amount to keep it there.

Almost certainly not. It needs certain "Investiture fields", which aren't the same as how much Investiture is present. Scadrial is Invested by two different Shards, and to a much greater degree than other Shardworlds because P&R created Scadrial from scratch, yet it does nor have the required Fields. Unfortunately, we just don't know what these Fields of Investiture are, so it's a guessing game on which planets have them and which don't. 1. He probably would, unless he had a source of water to drink from and keep himself hydrated, or perhaps by making a hole small enough to let water in that he could drink. 2. We don't know if Roshar has the necessary Investiture Fields, but I'd say there's a decent chance, what with Investiture literally falling from the sky on a regular basis. 3. There's two possible ways this can play out, depending on how exactly Investiture Fields maintaining Aethers works. If the Aether will just remain unaffected and won't decay once the Aetherbound leaves it, then the Highstorm (maybe not the Highstorm itself but rather the Investiture Fields themselves) could theoretically maintain it without the Aetherbound needing to do anything more beyond creating the shelter. However, if the Investiture Fields just allow an Aetherbound to maintain the water-feeding (Luhel?) bond at a distance, then they would continue to get dehydrated and need more water. Thats the one that I personally believe. The Highstorm itself won't be able to sustain it through supplying water. The water has to come from the body of the Aetherbound. If the Aetherbound is a Radiant and has Stormlight, they could maybe use the Stormlight to fuel the Roseite, either directly with no finagling needed or through some Investiture-conversion hacks, if it's possible to do it in a random Roseite box in a field somewhere, but otherwise they'll need a lot of water to sustain the Roseite box. If the Aetherbound travelled to the CR physically through a Perpendicularity, it should work exactly the same way. Planetary Subastrals may or may not have the necessary Investiture Fields required for the upkeep of the Aether, but the Aetherbound should still be able to use the Aether like Prasanva does in TLM. If you're just observing an Aetherbound in the PR from the CR, I have no idea what it would look like.

We know what happened on Sel. The Investiture 'ravaged' the land for a bit, then settled into the Cognitive. Huh. I can't find the source for that. I swear I've seen it somewhere though, I'll look for it tomorrow. Weird. I can't find that source either. I'm sure I've seen it though, I remember the words "but we don't know which way it skews" (referring to whether is speeds or slows time) exactly, but nothing is coming up on the Arcanum. It may have been a thread on here, but I'm sure there was a WoB attached. Another one I'll look for tomorrow, I guess. I suppose that since it's moving, it would probably form an unreliable, moving Perpendicularity instead, like how Honor's Perpendicularity works. But the pool near Elantris isn't very Invested, it doesn't glow, yet it's enough to apparently allow for inter-Realm transportation. Concentrated Investiture almost always glows, the only circumstances it doesn't is Vin and the Bands, plus Heightenings, which still cause some visual clues, such as leaking mist and causing colors to distort around you. The fact that the pool doesn't just says to me that it isn't very Invested, at least to the level Perpendicularities are implied to be. At the same time, any given amount of the Dor is Invested enough to glow, and there's massive amounts of it all over the whole planet.

I have so many questions. Can Rioting create emotions? Why is the Dor not a Perpendicularity? What are the Allomantic/Feruchemical/Hemalurgic effects of Harmonium? What are some Shards that didn't make the cut, now that they've all been set in stone? Can you use a Divine Breath to Awaken something? If you trapped a Divine Breath in a perfect gemstone, could you theoretically perform some procedure on it to fracture it into regular Breaths, or perhaps the Divine Breath shards that the Idris Royal Family have that allow them to perform limited shapeshifting and the Royal Locks? What happens when you force different Lights into the same gemstone through Raysium? If you Corrupt one of the Lights with the pure tone of Endowment, can the resulting Light be used to fuel Awakening? Is Dorium similarly reactive and unstable like Harmonium? Are there any Radiant Orders or Surges that never made the cut? If you put Breath in the ground, how far can you move from the point of Investment before you are no longer able to retrieve it? Can you retrieve that Breath from anywhere on Nalthis, so long as you're touching the ground? If you Awaken the beads in the Rosharan Subastral, is the bead Awakened or the object (in the PR) itself? Could you use that to manipulate things in the Physical Realm from the Cognitive, and convince someone that they're being haunted, or (more usefully) use it as a method of communication with someone in the PR? I can go on all day.

So, while deliberating on whether or not Odium could shunt a Shard's worth of Investiture into the Physical Realm, I was considering whether the Investiture would condense into a God metal or not, and how big a Shard's worth of God metal would be (Asteroid, moon, planet, star?), but then just figured it would collapse in on itself through time dilation due to such a big mass of Investiture concentrated in one place, along with becoming a Perpendicularity. We know that Sel experiences time dilation due to the Dor. But then, why does the Dor not form a giant Perpendicularity? It's literally two Shards' worth of Investiture, all just sitting there in the CR. Having a bunch of Harmonium opens a Perpendicularity, and apparently not even that much given that Allik repeatedly warns Wax about it despite Wax not owning that much of the metal. Any Bondsmith can theoretically open one. There already are two Perpendicularities on Sel. You're telling me that that little pool in the mountains is somehow more Invested than the entirety of the Dor?

The post before mine was only 18 hours ago, and the thread was at the top of the forum. I didn't realize it was so old until you said so. That's exactly it. It just doesn't necessarily prove that the Unmade were Spren beforehand. I can't find it right now, but there was a WoB that Odium doesn't rely only on direct Shard-to-Shard fighting to Splinter the other Shards, so as long as the Splinters don't remove too much power from him, he may not be too worried about it. Plus, sheer power doesn't matter all that much. Harmony is twice as powerful as Odium, and yet: Making Unmade would indeed not get rid of the issue, but if you have all of this leftover Investiture and you're about to just leave it, you might as well Corrupt some of it to create useful little underlings to help you in your serial killer aspirations. If Ambition was Splintered in the middle of space and he recreated what he did to Devotion and Dominion, her power would now be in the Cognitive Realm, which is significantly smaller, especially in, around, and between uninhabited places/planets with no sapient life, so it wouldn't be that hard to locate her power, even more so because the Cosmere is a relatively small galaxy. This has sparked an idea in me though, so I'll be making a new thread about it soon. Also, there are WoBs that Odium has found a better way to make the Investiture inaccessible and unAscendable: The question is phrased a bit weirdly in the second one, but the idea is that Odium has done something to Ambition's Investiture, which is why it hasn't acquired another Vessel.

I don't imagine that they make up any big portion of his power, added together. That's true. Sucks for Rayse (and now Todium) Do Shades count as Splinters of Ambition or Investiture Corrupted by her power? They do have red eyes, sometimes. Kind of, but not exactly. The Sibling is unique among Spren just for how much they've manifested into the Physical Realm; They are the Tower, and every single Fabrial inside it (barring a few) is a physical manifestation of their power. For them, infusion with Voidlight would be enough to Corrupt them. That could even work on other Spren-Fabrials like Soulcasters. But for regular Spren like Syl or even Lesser Spren, you'd need to force Odious Investiture into them in a much more violent way. You can't just infuse them with it because they aren't gems, Investiture resists Investiture, you'd have to force it into them. Or, like Sja-Anat, you have to convince the Spren, then Corrupt them. I thought the OP meant that after Splintering Ambition, he Corrupted her Investiture into the Unmade so that they could help him Splinter other Shards, then made his way to Roshar. I don't think Ambition was Splintered on Roshar, but it very well could have been somewhere in its vicinity. He might have planned to use the Splinters on other planets too. There can't be so many as to make up a significant portion of Odium's power though. I think we can all agree that Ambition definitely was not Splintered on Roshar, or even that close to it (otherwise there would be Shades or something similar on Roshar) I don't think the Unmade take up all that much of his power either. And like I said earlier, he may have just intended to take the Unmade everywhere with him to help in Splintering other Shards. That they are. The Unmade could have been turned mindless intentionally, but generally this seems to be true. It doesn't have to be. Overall, I think the theory is valid, Odium would have done something to Ambition's Investiture, just to keep it from finding another Vessel, like he did with the Dor. But while the theory is valid, I think it's unlikely. The Unmade are probably just some variety of Spren from Roshar that got Corrupted. They don't even need to all be True Spren. There's a theory that the Unmade's names denote how cognizant/clever they are: Ba-Ado-Mishram is the smartest of the Unmade, with three words in her compound name Sja-Anat, Re-Shephir, and Dai-Gonarthis are cognizant to some degree, but not extremely intelligent, with two words in their compound names. Ashertmarn (Heart of the Revel), Chemoarish, Moelach (Death Rattle Guy), and Nergaoul (The Thrill) aren't compound names at all, and so these Unmade are mindless. Going off of this, BAM may have been an "Uber" Spren, as the OP put it. The way Kalak talks about her in the RoW Epigraphs seems to support this idea, or at least that she was sapient beforehand. Sja-Anat, Dai-Gonarthis, and Re-Shephir may have been Nahel Spren, with Sja-Anat and Re-Shephir possibly being a Cryptic and Mistspren respectively. Ashertmarn, Chemoarish, Moelach, and Nergaoul would then be Lesser Spren.

Could be. If Dalinar really did Ascend during the Battle of Thaylen Field, then that means he's holding some part of the actual Shard of Honor, and holding a Shard twists its Vessel to fit the Intent over time. That could've been what he meant also

It's up to interpretation, but I don't really see it that way. The Shards aren't Gods, they don't represent the forces of nature or universal constants. They're just a lot of power that's been polarised to one random Intent. Someone giving you a gift on Rohar isn't invoking Endowment any more than you hating someone who wronged you is invoking Odium. Invention will want to inspire new technologies and creations, but not all technology comes through him. He just happens to have an Intent that encourages new ideas. It's not like Odium, Honor, and Ruin are fundamental parts of the fabric of the Cosmere, they're just random attributes of a God-like being that were turned onto each other and then torn apart. The fact that their Intents can be reinterpreted in different ways that can allow the Vessels to do different things supports this because if it was a fundamental part of existence, it would be a bit more set in stone. You are, as a person, made up of many different qualities. But suppose I was to somehow split you into two people, one whose entire being is dedicated to Wrath and one entirely centered around Vulnerability. If that were to happen, it doesn't necessarily mean that you, as a person, are fundamentally composed and able to feel only Wrath and Vulnerability, those were just the two things I happened to split you into. Just the same way, the original 16 Vessels split the divine being of Adonalsium into 16 random parts of himself. Only in this case, those 16 pieces each held a portion of the power of creation, each stamped with one of those 16 attributes, where the very power itself is being driven to exemplify and spread that one single Intent, which determines what the powers can and cannot do. This is separate from the people who take up (and eventually become slaves to) the powers, and those concepts overall. Killing someone isn't magically invoking Ruin, or being driven by a universal truth about the necessity of entropy. It's just you killing someone, and there happens to be a Shard who is polarised to a very similar thing. That's the entire point of why Nightblood is so special, and why his being able to channel and be fueled by Ruin's Investiture is so special, because he actually is invoking Ruin. Somehow, using an entirely different Shard's Investiture, Nightblood is using Ruin's powers, and to devastating effect. Not all destruction is through Ruin. In fact, only a very small fraction of destruction is through him, because he's been trapped on Scadrial for so long. Yet, what Nightblood is doing is clearly through Ruin. That was why I made this thread. Being honorable has nothing to do with Honor until you start using his Investiture and making actual, magical contracts. You can be Connected to a Shard by exemplifying their Intent, but that's only after you've been born on a planet where that Shard was/is in residence. Honor would fawn over a very honorable Scadrian, but they don't have an actual link between them, nothing magical like Connection connecting you to him. Had the people who killed Adonalsium done something differently, they would have gotten a different set of 16 Shards. Had the process been the same, but with different people involved, the Shatter would again produce 16 different Shards. There's nothing inherently special about the Shardic Intents. Or at least that's how I view it. Let me know if you guys think of it differently, this is one of the semantic differences in views about the Cosmere that really interests me. WoBs:

Hmmm, You may be right in that case. But if new bodies are being created, would they not be using up the Investiture that they're made of, and slowly be used up? Actually, they haven't needed to revive themselves post-Ahrietiam, and before that Honor was powering them, so everything checks out. The theory works. But if they just create new bodies, what are they Connected to to be able to pull themselves into the PR? Their old bodies? But it's still Connection to the PR, no? I suppose it just doesn't work that way, since it's a Connection to the PR and not to a Physical Aspect.

Oh, that's a lot more plausible. I still don't think it could work, and VenDell's idea hasn't been proven, but that's a lot more possible than I was originally thinking.

How would they tap the Knight's Identity though? They'd need the Unkeyed Identity of the Knight, which is impossible. Edit: And that's assuming that Aluminum actually holds a Feruchemical charge rather than just acting like a sink.

...Where? Are they not Connected to the Physical Realm through their body though? Like, that's the thing in the Physical Realm that they're Connected to. They'd theoretically also be Connected to their Birthplaces, which are in the Physical Realm, but they were born on Ashyn (except for maybe Shalash), and Connection to his Birthplace didn't help Kelsier at all. I think it could work, with a few workarounds.

I think her Blade's just been Commanded to consume Color to keep it from becoming Nightblood 2.0, and if it's absorbing color that way, the corpses should be unAwakenable. If they're turning gray because of a regular Shardblade severing-the-soul thing, it should still work, theoretically.

It may well let you access other people's Metalminds. However, trying to Unkey Identity itself is like trying to store Strengthless strength in a Pewtermind by Storing all of your strength into one Pewtermind, then trying to store even more in a separate one. At worst it won't work, at best you're going to divert some of the attribute going into the first metalmind into the second where both are exactly the same. You can't even create Investiture that isn't keyed to any attribute that way, since you'd already be using up all of the thing you're converting by totally filling that first Metalmind. In my example that's strength, but that also applies to Identity. You can do it, it's just not very useful. The only use I can think of it right now is to near-instantly transfer an attribute from one metalmind into another, by simultaneously tapping it from one and storing it into another. Some attribute is lost, but not that much. You could do that to an Unkeyed Metalmind and key all of the attribute to yourself. You could tap and store it in the same Metalmind to Key all of the Investiture to yourself, which is what I assume you were describing. WoB:

I think for your theory to work it pretty much has to vanish immediately so that the Connection remains preserved. The burning eyes thing is representative of the soul being severed from the body. Disregarding the burning eyes for a moment, if the body remains in the Physical Realm after death and only gets revived when they return, what happens if the body rots in the meantime? When they return, should they not re-enter their bodies where they last were? The Fused should have figured that out and exploited it at some point if it were the case. If the body gets moved to wherever they re-enter the PR from, once again, what happens if the body has decayed? The theory kinda falls apart as I understand it if the body remains. Even if you could explain away all that, the eyes burning are a physical sign of the Connection between the soul and the Physical Aspect being severed. The theory isn't necessarily in trouble though, as Shallan isn't the most reliable source given how much she's lying to herself and suppressing her memories, and we've seen before that her Flashbacks aren't necessarily accurate, so something else may have happened. I got my hands on an original English version, which gives us just a bit more wiggle room on whether there's an actually formalised way to do it or not, but you do seem to be right here: I don't think it's interference, but rather the way F-Nicrosil works. Feruchemy may just be easier to store in F-Nicrosil rather than Allomancy.

That's exactly what I mean. He (and by extension, the Malwish) seemingly no longer (or never did) have the right resources to create Allomantic or the more spectacular Medallions. The Bands are the obvious exception, but there's no way Kelsier could have created them without the help of someone with actual powers (probably Spook, the last known Mistborn for who Kelsier obviously had big plans for), and now that Spook is dead, Kelsier has probably lost access to the only way he could make Medallions, and the Bands are kept for emergencies, since the power they contain is limited Kelsier's time as the Sovereign is just so internally inconsistent and doesn't match up with what we see him do that it makes me think he was never the Sovereign to begin with, yet it clearly is him, so Brandon has quite deftly pulled a fast one on the entire fandom until Secret History 2 rolls around.

Clever. What do you think "suppressing" a Divine Breath is, Realmatically? So if Kelsier had died on Nalthis and Returned, he would still be able to perform Allomancy? That's a valid theory. Spoilers for future Stormlight books (Post RoW): There's Shardic interference with them too, in Odium. Presumably, since they don't require anything else to gain their Surgebinding, their souls themselves have the ability to perform the Corrupted form of Surgebinding, and when they possess the Singers they just use the Everstorm to strong-arm the C&S Aspects out and replace it with their own. Do you have the quote for that? I think we can figure out the answer for this one, partly: Reasons he almost definitely uses Medallions: Wax sees a memory from him in a Copper Medallion He is at one point known to have probably been on an Airship Someone taught the SoScads Unsealed Metalmind Technology, and as of now, Kelsier fits the description perfectly The thing is, for some reason Kelsier either can't or won't create more potent Medallions, and he probably wishes to reserve the Bands for emergencies, so he's stuck with the less useful Feruchemy Medallions at the moment.

That's true. Currently, I think he was just the figurehead for what was actually Spook and some Feruchemist (or potentially old Inquisitor Spikes). Kelsier would have residual knowledge of the Metallic Arts from his time as Preservation, so he may have deduced Unsealed Metalminds through that and then tried it with the help of Spook and a Feruchemist/Inquisitor Spikes. Do we know if Kelsier can use Medallions for Feruchemy? He said he was on an Airship in TLM, so he must be able to, except I've seen Sharders say that He can't use any metallic arts at all, since Hemalurgy doesn't seem to work on him either, and Kelsier has been known to lie to the Ghostbloods before. That's a good starting point until we learn more.

I'm 99% sure tapping someone else's Identity is technically impossible. You can tap other people's Metalminds by having the attribute stored in the Metalmind be Identityless. That applies to everything but Identity itself, which you can't Unkey because what's the point of tapping Identityless Identity? If it can be formed at all, it's just blank Investiture, since the thing it was supposed to be supplying necessarily has to be erased for you to be able to store it in the first place. Besides, it hasn't been canonised yet whether or not an Aluminummind actually stores Identity, or if the Identity being stored just vanishes

Which WoB is that? That's fair. Looking back at it now, it does look like a Command, especially the "It was followed by a sense of purpose, like a lamp being lit" bit. Except it does seem that Kelsier may have indeed had Shardic interference. What effects do you think that Kelsier is experiencing now are a result of Preservation's interference/Command?

I hadn't considered it was a Command. Do we know for sure that it is? That's fair. I just feel like Kelsier is the closest we have to a baseline, since Returned and Heralds have Shardic interference and the Shades on Threnody are anomalies.

My bad, I'm not very good at forums. It was on the front page of the forum, so I thought it would be fine. Warbreaker, Mistborn, and Stormlight Archive Spoilers

Not all God Metals are that Invested, I think @Wandering Shade is right here. A lot of Investiture in a weapon should turn it into a Shardblade, Intent or no Intent. Regarding the original post, you could totally create a Shardblade that way, and probably make a much more enhanced version of one by just continuing to add Aonic modifiers to them. A Shardblade that can shoot lasers? A Sharblade that can not only cut on all three Realms but also Leech other forms of Investiture at a touch? A copy of Nightblood? The possibilities are limited only by your imagination. However, if you just want a regular Shardblade, all you would need is a bonded Seon and the Connection Aon. Connect the Seon to the Physical Realm (or alternatively pull it into the Physical Realm through some other Connection shenanigans), and bam, you now have a shapeshifting Shardblade exactly like one from Roshar, only made of Aonium (Devotion's God Metal). Ditto for Skaze and a Skaium/Skaiium Shardblade, though we don't know what kind of bonds they form if at all, so it might prove harder or at least less obvious how to pull them into the PR. WoBs: