theSurgeOfPhysics

Perhaps. But if the duel ends with some 600 pages left in the book, I'd feel like that outcome would have to be resolved in Book 5. Otherwise, the plot would bleed into Book 6.

I also found it interesting that the listeners fought as pairs, but the Fused fight alone. Just another slight separation between Fused and Listener.

Realizing that if Book 5 ends 10 days after the end of RoW (day of the contest), what part do Shallan and Adolin play? They'll still be traveling in the Cognitive Realm for at least 10 days, and they have no idea what's happening except with Wit and his communications box. They may be the part of the story that reveals a few big twists, investigating what truly happened at the Recreance. Thoughts?

The Stormfather said that a Highstorm naturally cycles higher and lower in the sky and will at the highest point engulf the top of Urithiru. The last Highstorm we saw was at end of RoW, a few days before the end of the book yet before the 10-day countdown began, and Kaladin described it as being just below the rooftop. So in 10 days, the Highstorm will likely envelop the rooftop and make for a great battle scene! The timing of the contest is important, as the Stormfather may be able to extend time in Dalinar's last moments of the fight (if Dalinar does indeed serve as his own champion). He may ask for this if, say, he becomes severely wounded. It would be very interesting to see Dalinar take a pause in the fight and be able to think it through, and given the additional Investiture from the Tower (and potential Investiture from the Valley if the Highstorm lines up with both locations simultaneously— see linked topic below), then he'd have a lot of time to work with. The only problem is that Odium set the date and time of the contest, and he probably knows when the next storm will be, so does he want a Highstorm for the contest? If so, why? Perhaps Odium has done this so that he can command the Everstorm to meet with the Highstorm at this moment, causing a WoR-level phenomenon that we saw before. This is just speculation, so maybe we won't see any Highstorm, but we've seen either a Highstorm or the Everstorm used in the last battles since WoR, so it would only make sense for us to see them used again.

Woah. This changes a lot here. Thanks!

I’ve been wondering about this one, partially because I feel like this will play a part in Book 5 (theory coming soon): How does the Stormfather slow time for someone in the highstorm? We saw this a little bit when Taravangian Ascended, that a high concentration of Investiture dilates time around those present. Also, how long can this last? The Stormfather says not too long, so let’s say a few seconds. But how long does that feel to the individual? For Kaladin, it was just a few minutes, but could it be longer?

I like this theory a lot! In RoW, Ch. 109, Leshwi hints at her past with spren. So perhaps she could be the one to unite the singers and spren.

Ryshadium are bred from horses, so they're an imitation of the 5th Oath Radiants' mounts that were seen thousands of years ago. I doubt many Radiants ever made it to the last oath (in OB, Nale mentions that it is quite difficult) so the original reason for Ryshadium is murky from an Alethi history standpoint. Likely the Radiant rides a spren. We see the honorspren ride horse-type creatures, and Shallan always comments on wanting to ride the Mandras. Also, Syl can keep up with Kaladin's multiple lashings, and clearly so can the wind spren that now make up his armor, so only a spren would respond likewise and keep up with his speed.

Or they both refuse to kill each other. And remember Odium is freaking out because he can’t find a champion (mentioned how he lost Kaladin as his champion), so let’s see if he slips up.

The loophole is if there's a tie. Wit wrote the original terms to keep Odium bound to the Rosharan system, but Odium refused because of what it would entail. Wit's contract had a win-or-lose idea. But then he tells Jasnah about his card games on Nalthis: Wit's contract had no terms for a tie, and even though Dalinar changed the terms, the terms are the same: Either Dalinar wins, or Odium wins. But what if there is a tie? There is no clarification for this outcome, so the contract becomes void. Thoughts?

We know Dalinar first wanted to "Unite them", that is, all of Roshar. Now, as a Radiant Bondsmith, he is determined to reinstate the Oathpact. For Navani, given that she is fast learning how to attune rhythms, will she be the key to uniting singers and humans in Book 5?

I think in OB she was using only Pattern as a blade, but was still deceiving herself that Pattern and Testament were the same. Testament was the blade she used to kill her mother. But in WoR, when Pattern makes her remember that truth, Shallan says that her father put Pattern in the safe in the wall. Pattern doesn’t object to this, but he knows it’s not true. So she’s using Pattern in OB but says it’s the blade that she used to kill her mother because Pattern doesn’t say otherwise.

I like the idea. However, this would imply that Testament activated the gate and ended up in Urithiru. But she’s found on a tiny eastern island: Narak’s Oathgate. So she didn’t go through and was left on the gate. This implies that Pattern was the sword in Narak.

Dalinar is the only character to call Kaladin “lad”, so it was likely a bit of both: a Tien memory and Dalinar intervening.

WoB mentions a deadeye changes shape slightly over time. In Part 1 of RoW, Navani says scholars measured the thickness of the gate walls and determined that the Blade “melts” into it (otherwise it would pierce through the exterior). That’s a pretty drastic change.

(New to the cosmere here). When determining the terms of the contest of champions, Odium says Hoid (Cephandrius) could’ve been a god but chose otherwise. Did 16 mortals kill Adolnasium to become the vessels of the shards we know today? Not specifically humans, but mortals, as Cultivation is a dragon. Then again, if dragons are mortal, why is Frost considered functionally immortal? Is it because he’s just really old?

When Dalinar speaks to Kaladin as Tien, right before the 4th Ideal, it reminded me of his “I am Unity” scene in OB. His message to Kaladin is being there in the moment for others, not just thinking about the end goal. It’s a reiteration of the First Ideal, journey before destination. Dalinar likes to focus on that one, similar to OB, where he says it can’t be a journey if it doesn’t have a beginning.

Nice. I thought the characters acted a few years more mature for their age than usual. I wonder how this compares to Listeners/Singers, who mature faster than humans.

@Frustration, but one cannot activate an Oathgate with a deadeyes. Then again, Shallan is the only case we’ve seen where the deadeyes is wielded by the originally-bonded knight. Maybe then it’s different, but I doubt Testament is that powerful to open an Oathgate. It seems like a write-off if in Book 5 we learn, “well, their bond is special, so Testament functions differently than a deadeyes”.

@alder24, that makes a lot of sense. I forgot that Eila Steele tells us the origin of the term Voidbringer. Also, Odium talks to Moash in RoW and mentions the ability to form a Connection (one of the interludes I think), so I can see him using that without necessarily accessing any kind of bonding/Adhesion surge.

Ah, makes sense. Thanks!

New fan to the cosmere. I’ve read all Stormlight except for Dawnshard. Might be starting Elantris soon and plan to get through Mistborn trilogy in July.

I realized that Kaladin doesn’t use adhesion the same way that Dalinar does. Is this because of his radiant order, or because he doesn’t want to make a Connection with others in fear of losing them?

How can Odium make Fused? This seems like Adhesion or using Connections. This also begs a more serious question: if Adhesion is the surge of pressure and vacuum, and Odium is the Void, has this surge been touched by Odium?

My main theory that changes how we count Shallan's Ideals is that Shallan said an Ideal as she killed Testament. It would explain which swords she's using in WoR and how they are working. 1st Ideal— Same for all Orders. She said this early in her childhood. 2nd Ideal— She said this first to Testament. It was probably simple and childlike, given her age, maybe “I love you” or “you are my (only) true friend” being all alone in the Davar House. My theory: Lightweavers earn their Blade at 2nd Ideal, not 3rd. We've seen Windrunners and Edgedancers earn blade at 3rd Ideal (WoR for Kaladin, Edgedancer for Lift). Some don't even bond a spren until later Ideals (like Skybreakers in OB). Bottom line, Orders progress at different rates and makes sense from a Cultivation-based viewpoint (she would like variety in progression). 2nd Ideal— "I killed my father" is said to Pattern. This means that he's now a blade by the end of TWoK but can’t manifest yet because he’s weak in thinking and complex ideas. He can't even manifest physically until Shallan draws his pattern in the beginning of WoR. This means that Tyn is killed by Testament. In the moment before killing Tyn, Shallan notes: Notice: "But for her, it didn't have to be ten". I think "her" refers to Testament, not Shallan. Testament doesn't need to be summoned in 10 heartbeats because she is still partially bonded to Shallan. We also know deadeyes can be summoned in less, such as with Maya and Adolin (I think they got down to 7 beats). Right at this point Shallan begins to create Veil to hide the past about Testament (confirmed in RoW). The moment of her using Testament after all these years is what pushes her to make Veil, since that action of using Testament is what starts to bring the memories back. 3rd Ideal— My theory: "I hate you" is said to Testament. Yep, Shallan broke their bond as she swore the 3rd Ideal. Testament feels shame for letting Shallan kill her mother and accepts these words as truth, that she knows Shallan truly hates herself and Testament. It would be a great twist, since we wouldn't think that you can swear an Ideal while killing your spren. But Testament is the only one who needs to accept the Truths, and she does if moved to shame. 3rd Ideal— "I killed my mother" is said to Pattern. This was said after the Oathgate transfer, so Pattern had to have been a sword at that point already. This fits with the idea that Cryptics can be a blade by the 2nd Ideal. There is not nearly enough Investiture in Testament for her to do that, being a deadeyes; she can sometimes help soulcast and be a Blade, but that’s it. She moves slower than Pattern does in the Cognitive Realm, so Shallan running to the Oathgate and activating it at end of WoR might've happened too fast for Testament to keep up with her. We also know deadeyes move slowly and keep their distance from their Shardbearers (Maya walking a ways behind the group in OB). Shallan has no need to summon her afterwards, now that Pattern manifested as a Blade already in the chasms and again for the Oathgate, AND Shallan acknowledging how Pattern is different than other Blades, so she finds no need to summon Testament again. The transfer occurs and Testament is left on the platform in the Cognitive Realm, the mysterious island in the east where she was found by the shopkeeper (RoW) and held with her after that. 4th Ideal— "I'm terrified" is said to Testament in TWoK. These truths to her are still pretty simplistic because Testament is from a childhood bond. This grants some soulcasting for Shallan but it's still very weak. By the end of WoR, there's a that WoB says Shallan is on 4th Ideal. He's referring to this one, not any Ideals with Pattern. 4th Ideal-"I killed [my spren]" was said to herself in Kalak's study. Pattern has not yet accepted this (or maybe did offscreen but that seems weak), because he didn’t hear the truth. Remember, she forbid Pattern from following her to Kalak's house. 5th Ideal— This will be a one-and-done truth, a bridge between her bonds with the two spren. It will heal Testament and propel her to 5th ideal for both bonds. Testament’s Ideals revolve around shallan as a child while Pattern’s exposes her childhood, so 5th Ideal is a combination that satisfies both of her spren, and they both accept it. This makes it plausible for Shallan to sweat a single Ideal in the next book. Thoughts?