in Truth,watcher of tv

I’ve given this some thought myself and I figure these might be describing the Cognitive aspects of the Surges. Anyway, I agree with @Elite01 that the Fused Brands can be used as a third reference point for the Surges’ influence on personality.

This is how I figure it:

Adhesion - trust/responsibility, basically establishing Connection

Gravitation - authority, hierarchy, maybe a bit of charisma

Division - seems to be about selflessness in the sense of separating ego from decision-making, both Orders externalise their morality

Abrasion - sympathy seen in DB obedience and ED empathy

Progression - maturity, augmenting in a qualitative sense, generosity

Illumination - revelation as you said

Transformation - individuality, I think this is about the unique way a thing’s Cognitive aspect filters/changes the Spiritual aspect

Transportation - independence, thinking for yourself

Cohesion - conformity, the Deepest Ones are a good example for this

Tension - we haven’t seen much of this one but I would guess integrity, compromise (in the sense of making allowances) or perhaps augmenting in a quantitative sense

7 hours ago, Elite01 said:

I've been wondering for a while why each Knight Radiant order shares a specific surge with a different order. While this could be a coincidence I think it's more likely that an order's ideal is shaped by the combination of its surges and its respective theme.

For example, truthwatchers and lightweavers both are centered on truth but have different views on them (societal truth and personal truth). I believe that these different perspectives on truth are changed by the secondary surge each order possesses and it changes how the order views truth.

This could theoretically help us understand the other orders better if we can isolate each surges "theme" and then predict how these themes mix together. For example, if we could figure out the themes of abrasion and progression (edgedancer) then we could figure out the themes of abrasion and division (dustbringer) 

I’ve thought about this myself, you can definitely see some patterns in the personalities of groups that share a Surge, although it can be hard to pin down. I think it’s also useful to look at the Fused since they are defined by the Surges as much as the Knight Radiants. I think these principles/themes might be the Cognitive and sometimes Spiritual aspects of the Surge, as opposed to their more physics-based Physical aspects.

My ideas for the list:
Adhesion: establishing trust/responsibility (this is fairly explicit with Honour and f-duralumin)
Gravitation: authority and attention (Connection focused on a person)
Division: impartiality and selflessness (both Dustbringers and Skybreakers externalise their morality)
Abrasion: sympathy and influence (friction is basically how much two things will move with each other)
Progression: maturing and augmenting (has less of a personality itself but modifies other Surges)
Illumination: revelation/understanding (fairly self-explanatory)
Transformation: individuality (both Orders have personalised oaths)
Transportation: independence and the self (both Orders and the Brand insist on going their own way)
Cohesion: conformity/consistency (both Orders look at group dynamics, the makay-im act as a single unit)
Tension: integrity and power (mostly guessing at this one)

Here’s a thought, maybe the different Bondsmiths each  have a different Platespren. They are generally thought of as ‘cousins’ to the Radiant spren and each of the Bondsmith spren are vastly different. Further, while glory suits the Stormfather/Honour, being bold, noble and socially oriented, it’s at odds with the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. The Cultivation side of things is generally more subtle, nurturing and nature-oriented; I’d put forward that the Platespren could be riverspren.

Riverspren are described as one of the largest and most intelligent of the lesser spren, right next to windspren, which I’d guess could be due to an association with Adhesion. Water has been conspicuously absent from Surgebinding and its associations, despite being critical for life and omnipresent, especially on Roshar. Also, the Nightwatcher resides in “the Valley” which almost certainly means there’s a river nearby and her appearance was compared to one.

On these discussions about colour and appearance, @Firesong, I don’t think we are meant to take the Steve Argyle art as canonical depictions. In the books, from what I remember, living Plate and Blade are always described as being silver-grey metal with the seams and engravings glowing with the standard colour associated with the Order. Some spren have a similar colour but others, like logicspren and creationspren, do not.
As for appearance, the relationship between the Radiantspren and the Platespren is more of an abstract one. Their concepts are related (such as creativity and patterns) more than their physical description.

This isn’t really a theory, I just kind of wanted to highlight and enjoy this little feature. Some people have probably already noticed but some people won’t have.
Basically, spren are cartoons and animation flourishes. Roshar as a setting is partially inspired by anime (if the ridiculously large magical swords weren’t a giveaway), and many of the spren are pretty much exactly how abstract and intangible concepts are expressed in cartoons and anime. For instance:

Windspren are how wind is portrayed; as a long, pale, translucent line
Concentrationspren are like the ripples sometimes used to show psychic powers
Musicspren would take the shapes of musical notation if they were on Earth
I’m fairly sure anxietyspren are the throbbing forehead veins used when a character is stressed
Logicspren are literally brainstorms

3 hours ago, Firesong said:

I think Cabine is likely Taln, who is Dependable, but it could also be Jezrien, who is a Protecting and Leading, which are very non-childlike attributes. 

Eshu is either Paliah or Battar. Knowledge and Wisdom respectively. 

Not sure about Dilid. 

I reckon Cabine correspond to Jezrien, since protecting and leading are about responsibility and childishness is about being irresponsible.
Eshu I would say is definitely Pailiah, since it’s talking about information rather than thoughts or viewpoints
I would guess Dilid matches Battar in being about pursuing something you know is pointless or I could see it relating to Taln.

Those Vorins love a well-structured table, I’d guess the numbered Fools match up directly to the numbers of the Heralds. I can’t remember the context behind those quotes but; 4 would match Vedel and might be about forgetfulness or apathy, 6 would match Shalash and could be about deluding yourself, 7 matches Battar and -well- the opposite of wisdom is foolishness but this could be about futility and so be Dilid.

Off the top of my head, a few more Fools might be:

Nale: disrespectful of rules or authority

Chanarach: cowardice or recklessness

Kalak: indecisiveness

Ishar: might be faithlessness or heresy

I figure the Unmade were the unique cultural spren of the dawnsingers, that embody some of the major concepts which are conspicuously unrepresented among the spren we know. Also, I suspect the singers essentially sold them out to Odium in exchange for the power to fight humans, which is the betrayal that prompted Leshwi to ask if the spren had forgiven them.

So, when Odium unmade them he twisted their basic concept to his Intent and purposes, and since they were important spren to the singers this made them ‘his’ people. I think the fuzzy association the Unmade have with the Heralds/Knights is through the platespren and the forms they grant the singers, and so indirectly related to the Orders but not philosophically aligned.

A few I’ve thought of:
Nergaoul: spren of love (and/or lust), which was turned into bloodlust; lifespren-mateform

B-A-M: spren of forms became the spren of forms of power; linked to the Truthwatcher platespren which I think are mandras - maybe meditationform

Sja-anat: innovator of new or custom spren maybe, became the corruptor; creationspren-artform

Ashertmarn: spren of festivities became about mindless excess; Willshaper platespren (musicspren)-resulting form (songform I would guess)

Moelach: spren of funerals or maybe ancestors; could be associated with Stoneward platespren especially if dawnsingers buried their dead or flamespren if they cremated

This theory has been bouncing around in my head for a while, and it was reinforced by what we hear of the Iriali in Tress. Looking back through old topics, I found one that had a similar idea but it was before the new information in Tress.

The Iriali religion says of their god that "the One knew everything but had experienced nothing and so became Many to experience everything" (the Many here being the Iriali). They were also set on the Long Trail through seven worlds where the One will recombine (I wonder if this is when they get to the Seventh Land or when the finish their stay there). In Tress we learnt that this Long Trail isn't simply a worldhopping pilgrimage but a magical event, which is either involuntary or can be activated by a minority, based on how its talked about happening overnight.

I think the Iriali's One is a Shard, when the Vessel Ascended they would have the understanding of reality that a Shard has but have experienced almost nothing (relatively) of life and the Cosmere. The Iriali would have something like Splinters attached to their souls (comparable to the Returned) that record their lives and pass on to new Iriali after they die. I definitely don't think they themselves are Splinters because firstly that would probably make detecting them too easy, and secondly that would mean the recombination of the One would involve the entire people being absorbed into a single entity (horrifying stuff).

Some people seem to think the Iriali religion is based on Adonalsium and the Shattering, but this WOB supports the idea that it is a based on a Shard, since it is related to the Shattering but later events are more important (ie. the actions of a Shard):

Quote

Questioner

Is the Iri religion based on knowledge of the [Shattering], anything like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of, yes.

Questioner

But they don't know it?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't know it, yeah. I would say yes, there are echoes of it. There are more recent events that they don't even quite remember that are more influential.

Also, this WOB fits with the One being a Shard; if they were created by a Shard with a human Vessel, it would be somewhat human but not really:

Quote

Podman36

Did the Iriali have inhuman ancestry at some point in the past?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of human. Most would say yes.

I think it's specifically the unnamed Shard thought to be related to 'wisdom', because the religion says they desire experience in contrast to knowledge, which is a large part of what wisdom is. I wonder if the Vessel Splintered their own consciousness as the religion suggests, or if they just Splintered the power of the Shard and are quietly waiting in the Seventh Land for their people and power to return to them. It would make sense for them to want to have experience as a Shard as well as as mortals.

Anyway, please tell me what you think. Thanks 

On 9/7/2023 at 0:35 PM, Lightweaver2 said:

 

It could be Delegation. That works for the first combo, Autonomy and Dominion is Delegation. The invested people of their planet don’t gain powers themselves, but grant them to the people they wish, like a Windrunner and their squires, but the delegator doesn’t have powers themselves.

 

To me this seems a good one but for Endowment and Dominion, since it revolves around granting others power.

Since Autonomy is about individualism and ‘survival of the fittest’, I think the combo with Dominion might be along the lines of Autocracy or something; it’s basically a compound of the two words already.

The way I see it, the Shards do have pairs but many of them are more like counterparts rather than opposites. So, my list is:

Honour/Autonomy= rules and responsibility vs rule bending individualism

Endowment/Mercy= granting vs relieving

Cultivation/Whimsy= planned change vs arbitrary change

Odium/Valour= punishment vs reward

Devotion/Dominion= to be affected vs to affect

Ambition/speculated wisdom Shard= considering vs acting (or something)

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

You're taking a very Roshar-centric position and you are searching for patterns that focus on Surges as an explanation - that's ok.

That's because I'm talking about a single magic system on Roshar. Stop trying to make this something it isn't. I've never, not once, tried to apply Surges to anything except the Knights Radiant and their spren. I acknowledged and agreed that the Surges are based on universal principles.
You've repeatedly misrepresented what I've said, ignored key bits of my posts and occasionally been condescending, all of which has been upsetting. 

Again, I really am sorry for any rudeness.

In the interest of completeness, I'll give a last response to the other points.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

Oh, I misinterpret it as self-healing. Hoid is healing because he used to have Dawnshards, and that's his source of healing. 

I don't know what you're saying about misinterpreting, but I'm unaware of anything that says Hoid heals because of the Dawnshard. I think both our points are moot on this because healing mechanics are quite nebulous and we don't have much insight into who can do what why.
I also should have done a better job breaking up my different statements, I think I caused some confusion.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

Cosmere Spoilers:

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's why I am showing you that your theory explains stuff that is  already explained. There is no need for a weird Division mechanic that was never shown on pages when the explanation is there. The blade changes matter into investiture - I see no Division here, more like Transformation (which doesn't change things into investiture). 

You haven't shown me anything I don't already know. In my theory, Spiritual Division explains why Shardblades (but not any spren in godmetal form) effortlessly separates matter; the matter vaporisation thing is how the Blades do this without having a width of absolute zero. It wouldn't be the first magic in the Cosmere to have additional minor effects to make it practical.

Anyway, as a parting gift, here's a WOB about the Elantris weirdness that I've referred to previously:

9 hours ago, Argenti said:

yall need to chill

Haha yeah, sorry, I got a bit grouchy.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Because it's a natural thing that resembles a surge of Transportation. They need higher Ideal because they need a stronger bond to anchor themself in PR, that's what allows them to transform into a physical god metal (which exists in all 3 realms at the same time, creating a black hole of some sorts). 

Or it's the Surge of Transformation which is based on a natural phenomenon. I'm not arguing that these forces are unique to Roshar.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Perception... That's how healing in Cosmere works. Rysn views herself as crippled, Hoid doesn't. What I said is for now we don't know if the same rules of healing apply to Dawnshards or only to people that used to be Dawnshard. I believe it's the former. Both Hoid and Rysn don't need Stormlight to heal, we just hasn't have Rysn as an example yet.

Healing isn't even the only thing Progression does, it makes things grow, Stormlight doesn't make people grow.

Do you read what I write? Again, you don't know how Hoid can heal, it could be due to an unknown kind of magic he's collected, or his mysterious pact with the 16 Shards, or his Dawnshard. I was referring to Renarin with the lifelong neurological condition, but according to you he doesn't see himself as how he's always been.

Progression doesn't grow people, just plants and carapace. Anyway, I'm trying to argue that Radiant healing is a specially designed feature, or at least a consciously developed one.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Cosmere spoilers:

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

What? No! That's literally the explanation of Shardblade cutting. It's not Division. Is there a spiritual Division? Something like that was never mentioned.

And by what surge is Nightblood cutting? Or Azure's blade? Both are Shardblades, they are cutting in all 3 realms as well, what Surge is that? None, that's just the mechanism of Shardblades, defined by natural laws of Cosmere.

I know it's an explanation of the Blade cutting; it was needed because the width of the blade would have made cutting through stone (or cheese) impossible otherwise.
Spiritual Division would be the breaking/downgrading of Connection. No it wasn't mentioned, that's why this is a theory. Some of the stuff you've said has never been mentioned.

Again, I have told you I am talking about Rosharan Surge-based magic, stop straw-manning me. Nalthian Shardblades use a completely different magic system, but are based off the same or similar principles, you know, the ones you keep dragging up. Also, I wouldn't exactly say that Nightblood cuts.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's very relevant. That's how it works. Surgebinding is another manifestation of those laws of Cosmere, but not everything on Roshar is because of Surgebinding - Roshar existed BEFORE Surgebinding was created, before Surges even existed. The same goes with sprens. But those natural laws of Cosmere always existed, since creation, Roshar was created and its nature is defined by those natural laws of Cosmere. That's how Stormlight works, because Stormlight is defined by laws of Investiture, that's how spren works, because they're defined by laws about Splinters, that's how healing works, because it's defined by laws regarding healing. etc. That's where it came from, from the nature of Cosmere, not specifically from Surges. Yes, all those things are part of the same magic system (multiple magic systems at once exist on Roshar), but they all work by outside forces and rules, not because of Surges.

Riiiight, and you know where the line is drawn, how? You seem to have decided to not entertain my idea based on an arbitrary determination about where the Surges no longer apply, which is bafflingly at the spren which grant them and the Investiture of the Shard which created them. So, I will just say what you don't want to: we don't know if I'm right, we don't know if you're right, and that's fine. 

I'm sorry if I'm being curt with you, but you seem to have a habit of tediously arguing digressive points.

Sorry for the late replies, I've been stuck using my phone for the last month and quoting on those is a nightmare!

On 13/04/2023 at 11:18 PM, Voidwatcher said:

To add-on to the original topic, if I had to guess I'd pair Odium with Zinc. This one leans more into the Shardic Intent since we don't know much about Voidbinding or anything relating to Odium besides the Unmade. However, considering things like the Nergaoul and Ashertmarn, either Zinc or Brass could work. Considering the Shardic Intent I'd place it under Zinc- especially since Voidlight apparently makes all emotions STRONGER when inside a Singer. Not sure how it lines up Feruchemically.

Yes, I definitely agree (I also agree it's annoying we don't get a look at a clear 'Odium magic'). The Allomantic and Feruchemical powers are exactly the two sides of what Cultivation did to Taravangian to prepare him to take Odium: powerful emotions and a powerful intellect. He also notes after Ascending that the Shard has two sides, destructive rage and intelligent cunning, although tbf the cunning side might have been referring to himself as the Vessel. I've said before, I suspect the Feruchemical zinc side of Odium's magic might be in granting, not so much intelligence, but knowledge and understanding; like knowledge of the future or deep understanding of a Surge.

On 14/04/2023 at 0:39 AM, alder24 said:

Was Leras unchanged? He literally Shattered the god, and after 10000 years of holding Preservation he wasn't able to hold a knife. Holding Preservation didn't make him preserve himself, he still ruined his own mind to trap Ruin, it only made him focused only on preserving everything but himself.

Well, in his appearance as a Vessel he looked and talked as a normal guy, presumably how he was when he Ascended. Most Shards we've seen tailor their manifestation to the audience and circumstances with special effects and all, but every time Leras just looked like a normal guy in clothing unfamiliar to a Scadrian. Of course, the Shard bent him to its Intent, but I don't think it did any more than that, significantly changing his personality or anything. Also, he could hold the knife he just couldn't use it on someone.

Anyway, I think I'll sneak in another metal-Shard connection here. Gold-Cultivation: introspection and the best healing in the Cosmere. We literally see Renarin use both sides of gold (even though he isn't the best example of a Truthwatcher, I see no reason why the gold-shadow power came from his special circumstances).

53 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It's an interesting theory, but I doubt we can prove or disprove until we have more information.

Of course, that's always the way between books. I mean, for 4 of the 6 Surges my explanation is wishy-washy to non-existent so I'm not making any claims to certainty.

57 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Do you perhaps mean Regrowth?

  Reveal hidden contents

Progression is the Surge of Growth:

Quote

WoR Ch I-9

Wyndle sighed. “Spread the seeds on the frame.”

She did so, throwing the handful of seeds at the window.

“Your bond to me grants two primary classes of ability,” Wyndle said. “The first, manipulation of friction, you’ve already—don’t yawn at me!—discovered. We have been using that well for many weeks now, and it is time for you to learn the second, the power of Growth. You aren’t ready for what was once known as Regrowth, the healing of—”

Lift pressed her hand against the seeds, then summoned her awesomeness.

She wasn’t sure how she did it. She just did. It had started right around when Wyndle had first appeared.

He hadn’t talked then. She kind of missed those days.

Her hand glowed faintly with white light, like vapor coming off the skin. The seeds that saw the light started to grow. Fast. Vines burst from the seeds and wormed into the cracks between the window and its frame.

The vines grew at her will, making constricted, straining sounds. The glass cracked, then the window frame popped open.

Lift grinned.

Regrowth is the Healing:

Quote

WoR Ch I-9

She set Gawx on his back, face toward the sky. He wasn’t really anything to her, that was true. They’d barely just met, and he’d been a fool. She’d told him to go back.

But this was who she was, who she had to be.

I will remember those who have been forgotten.

Lift leaned forward, touched her forehead to his, and breathed out. A shimmering something left her lips, a little cloud of glowing light. It hung in front of Gawx’s lips.

Come on . . .

It stirred, then drew in through his mouth.

A hand took Lift by the shoulder, pulling her away from Gawx. She sagged, suddenly exhausted. Real exhausted, so much so that even standing was difficult.

Darkness pulled her by the shoulder away from the crowd. “Come,” he said.

Gawx stirred. The viziers gasped, their attention turning toward the youth as he groaned, then sat up.

. . .

“What application?” Darkness said. “He is a thief!”

“He performed the miracle of Regrowth,” said one of the older scions. “He was dead and he returned. What better application could we ask for?”

Quote

WoR Ch 88

“I recognize you,” Szeth realized. “I’ve seen you somewhere before.”

“You have.”

Szeth struggled to rise. He managed to make it to his knees, then knelt back on them. “How?” he asked.

“I waited until you crashed to the ground,” the man said, “until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then, I restored you.”

“Impossible.”

“Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right Surgebinding. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late. But surely you know this. Two of the Blades held by your people allow Regrowth. I suspect you have already seen the newly dead restored to life.”

Quote

OB Ch 38

“What is that woman doing?” Jasnah asked, curious.

A younger woman met the limping men. A Radiant? She had the look about her, though she wasn’t armored. It was more her air of confidence, the way she settled them down and took something glowing from the pouch at her belt.

“I remember this,” Dalinar said. “It’s one of those devices I mentioned from another vision. The ones that provide Regrowth, as they call it. Healing.”

Navani’s eyes widened, and she beamed like a child who had been given a plate full of sweets for Middlefest.

 

Of course, we don't know for sure if Regrowth is simply a facet in the Surge of Progression, or something like the Reverse Lashing where it is the Surge combination that affects how it functions. After all:

• Renarin's healing and Lift's do not seem very similar
  • Which is itself inconclusive because Renarin isn't a normal Truthwatcher - and while they have referenced other Truthwatchers healing, they have not shown us to compare with what Renarin did in the Battle of Thaylen Field
  • Lift is also not normal, since she uses Lifelight - and her Regrowth on Gawx looked much more like the passing of a Divine Breath

Regrowth and Growth are just different flavours of Progression. Check the coppermind. I said Progression because that's the power; Regrowth is the name for one of its applications.
In the quotes you pulled up it says two of the Honourblades grant Regrowth (the second won't be the Dustbringer one). Renarin uses Progression normally, and Lift's Edgedancer powers work basically the same as other, as far as we know, so I don't know why you say their healing is different. Wyndle expected Lift to be able to do Growth so that's normal, and while we haven't seen a Truthwatcher use it they are so heavily associated with plants and light I will be shocked if they're not better than Edgedancers at it.

What did Renarin do at Thaylen Field??

On 23/05/2023 at 1:12 AM, Jn819 said:

The implication I got was more that they're just really twisted Fused. Kind of like how Shallan got the impression that Re-Shephir (the Midnight Mother) had once been human.

Yeah, their heads are the shape of chasmfiend heads and I'm fairly sure they were made to counter the fiends, so I figured they were Fused crossed with a chasmfiend soul. Either way, being faced with the reality of that situation would be traumatic.

On 23/05/2023 at 1:12 AM, Jn819 said:

From what we've seen of his powers, I don't think that's how it works. He can see visions himself that no one else can see, or he can create illusions everyone can see. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Kaladin could also see the gold shadow thing of Moash, right?) Thunderclasts don't have eyes in their chest cavity or anything.

Well these things usually work on a level beyond literal sight so I just meant any manifestation might have popped up next to the core of the thunderclast, obscured by rock, but still very real to the spren. Also, I don't think we should assume limitations based only on what we've seen so far.

On 24/05/2023 at 10:02 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

Well Cultivation is a Dragon, naturally immortal and thus probably better able to deal with the effects a Shard imposes on its Vessels.  If she's better able to wield Fortune then color me not surprised.

Are they immortal, or just very long lived? Hoid's letter to Frost says: "Though, as you are now essentially immortal...". Which suggests that it's a later development for Frost, not a natural state.

On 25/05/2023 at 11:51 PM, alder24 said:

Those are spren, pulled into PR, they're not of Radiant, nor Radiant manipulates them this way, they follow his intent. They turn their cognitive form into a physical form. 

Yes, and they can't do it without a Knight Radiant of a high enough Ideal. Spren don't turn into bits of armour naturally. Why couldn't it be a function of Transportation that emerges from the Bond.

On 25/05/2023 at 11:51 PM, alder24 said:

It's the nature of Stormlight. Not just any investiture, as in most cases other types of investiture are more limited (you could still make it work by unkeying it), but Mistborn spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Vin was tortured and her body and bones were broken in HoA, then she started ingesting Mists and was fully able to move and fight. I don't remember if it was said, but Mists must have healed her, otherwise her arms and legs would have still been broken. 

Rysn might not heal yet (she didn't suffer any injury, and her perception prevents her from healing her legs), but Hoid does heal because of Dawnshard he used to hold.

But the nature of Stormlight (and other Rosharan lights) is becuase of interaction of Shards and Roshar, which formed magic systems there.

Stormlight can cure a neurological illness you're born with, but a Dawnshard can't heal a spine broken a couple of years ago? Hoid has multiple things going on, you can't say it's because of the Dawnshard he's involved with.
Look, if we put aside direct Shardic intervention, which includes Heralds, Fused, Hoid (he has some sort of arrangement with the Shards) and certain people in the process of Ascending, there are only two examples of Investiture automatically healing, one of which is the Knights Radiant. As you say, Stormlight is influenced by the Shards of Roshar, one of whose major powers is Progression. But really, we don't see Stormlight auto-healing except in the structure of the Knight's Radiant, so it's hard to definitely say either way. Cosmere spoilers:

On 25/05/2023 at 11:51 PM, alder24 said:

That they don't cut by Division. Division burns, not turns objects into investiture.

You're thinking Physical Division, I'm talking Spiritual Division. It's literally dividing the Spiritual aspect. The 'turning some into Investiture' thing is clearly just a physics work around, not the main point of the power.

On 25/05/2023 at 11:51 PM, alder24 said:

I do understand it as you said it, I just think those things exist outside of Surges, that's because of the nature of Cosmere, not Surges. It's not because of Surgebinding, it's because of natural laws that exist outside of Surgebinding. Those might seem similar, and one can make a reasonable argument that Surges are the reason behind it, but Surges just work under the same natural laws as all those things that you mentioned, especially spren. That's why they work similar, that's why you can "classify" some effects under those Surges.

I don't know why you keep bringing up the fact that these forces exist outside of the Surges. It's irrelevant. I'm talking about on Roshar, where these forces are codified in the magic as the Surges, where the spren are the source of that magic, where the spren are described as "living Surges" and are inherently linked to the Surges. The specific, Surge-based magic system I am solely talking about has strong themes of unity, interconnection and sharing of power. Why wouldn't these effects be Surges?!

On 26/05/2023 at 0:33 AM, Treamayne said:

Many Spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

 

To be fair, it is also possibly the nature of how the investiture is channeled. Stormlight is raw keyed SR investiture captured in a physical gem until the Radiant breaths it in; while an Elantrian is always connected to the Dor (also keyed raw investiture) - so both are using the investiture in the physical realm while still maintaining it's Connection to the source realm (SR adn CR respectively).

However, a Returned's divine breath is a SR aspect on their spiritweb (until they expend it - then it heals); Awakeners are endowing breath to people or things, but it is still a SR thing that only transitions briefly between realms (maybe - still debated in the Warbreaker section - but since wind won't affect breath transfer it can't really be in the physical realm IMO)

And an allomancer is only using metals as a key to connect to the SR investiture - but the metal determines the "shape" of the power released (much like an Aon) so it can only heal when the "key" is F-Gold. 

 

TL;DR: There is probably a connection between why both Stormlight and Dor heal the way they do. 

And Progression is the "key" for Stormlight healing.

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

From where did you get this conclusion? Are you perhaps referencing what happened on Ashyn?

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

No, we don't know that. What is your source? The text supports the opposite, as first Surgebinders were the result of spren copying Honorblades and their effects, and every Honorblade gives only 2 Surges, therefore early spren bonds would also grant only two Surges. 

Argh sorry, looks like today I'm a case study on the fallibility of memory. I got this into my head as a possibility and thought I had read it somewhere. If a relevant quote is out there, I haven't found it. I've edited the post to reflect my foolishness.

Anyway the theory doesn't rest on that idea.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The surgebinding diagram opposes this idea, every order is connected only to 2 Surges: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Surgebinding#/media/File:TWoK_Front_Endsheet.jpg

Well yeah, those are the Surges they manipulate and that shape them, but the table doesn't mention things like Blade and Plate, which I'm talking about.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's because this is the nature of healing. General, across the whole Cosmere. Stormlight is easily accessible and usable and it naturally heals people. Not really a Surge of Progression, just the nature of Stormlight and healing.

Do you mean the nature of Investiture? because holding a lot of Investiture doesn't automatically heal you. We've only seen this once on another world. I'm saying this is why it's the nature of Stormlight to heal.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

They get pulled over by the bond, the stronger the bond the more spren are able to manifest physically. That works for other spren too - Windspren sometimes manifest themself in CR, Mandras and emotion spren get pulled into PR etc - that's more the nature of spren rather than the Surge of Transportation.

But I'm saying the Bond can do this because of Spiritual Transportation, making god metals appear with a thought. The examples you give aren't manifesting physically, likely Transportation, yes, but on a completely different scale.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Shardblade cuts by converting matter of the object into investiture, it doesn't destroy it.

Okay, I don't understand your point here.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Is every Connection the result of Surge of Adhesion to you? Is every Rosharan connection to their planet the result of Adhesion? It's the other way around, Connections exist naturally, and the Surge of Adhesion allows you to manipulate them, create new ones.

No, I would say this is. Chill

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

And what does it have to do with the Surge of Gravity? That's because of the Connection.

As I see it, in a Spiritual sense Gravitation is about lower order Connections focused on a single point, which is basically a description of the Plate swarm.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Connection again.

Yep, probably. Other than the sensory abilities of the Plate I couldn't think of anything particularly Illuminationy. Was just throwing out an idea for this one.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I see what you're doing and I know what you mean by this. There are connections you can draw between abilities of Radiants and their spren and some Surges. But I don't think that's because of Surges. Those things are just natural, they're a part of the Nahel Bond, of a spren's nature etc. They just exist, like gravity isn't because of the Surge of Gravitation. Surges allow manipulation of certain Cosmere properties, Cosmere laws, but those exist beyond Surges. Connections aren't because of Adhesion, they exist without this Surge. Connections grant powers, they grant knowledge, languages, they tie souls together. Adhesion is just a way of Connection manipulation. But not every Connection is made with the use of Adhesion, not every power granted by Connections is because of the Surge of Adhesion. The same with Transportation - Perpendicularity doesn't use the Surge of Transportation. It just uses the same basic principles defined by the nature of Cosmere but works differently, by a different magic system. It's more the other way around - the Surge of Transportation is Rosharan way of copying naturally existing Perpendicularities. The Surge of Gravity is Rosharan way of copying and manipulation force of Gravity. The Surge of Adhesion is Rosharan way of accessing and manipulating Connections. 

Yeah nah, you've misunderstood me. I was just explaining the Knight Radiant's extra abilities and bonuses with their own magic system. Pretty reasonable I'd say.

I am still interested in your thoughts on the theory through my framework. 

Bear with me on this one.
We know that the first Nahel Surgebinders got access to all the Surges (I would guess favouring the ones closest to their spren), but then Ishar came along and bound them, creating the Knights Radiant with two Surges each. They (Knights Radiant) have more than just the two Surges though, and I think the additional stuff, common to basically all Orders, is related to all ten Surges. They are heavily restricted and mostly outside the Radiant's direct control, but they also seem to me to touch on the Spiritual aspect of the Surge much more than a Radiant's main two. Also, their effect seems to be boosted if the Surge is one of the Radiant's main two.

Progression: they get from the start as the self-healing from holding Stormlight, more potent than normal Regrowth as it can cure lifelong poor eyesight and epilepsy, even as far as to change a person's sex.
Transportation: allows them to physically manifest their spren as Shardblade and Plate.
Division: the infamous cutting edge of a Shardblade, cutting in all three realms.
Cohesion: possibly relating to the ability to completely reshape the Shardblade on a whim and to a lesser extent Shardplate.
Adhesion: extending the Nahel bond to others, creating Squires.
Gravitation: gathering a swarm of loosely bonded spren to form Shardplate.

Abrasion: less sure about this one but it could maybe be the enhanced reflexes and agility granted by Shardplate?
Tension: same as Abrasion but for the strength of Plate?
Illumination: might be the telepathic link between a Radiant and spren, especially while the Blade is summoned?
Transformation: no clue

So... thoughts?

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But we didn't see any shadow like in the case of Moash. There was just light.

Wouldn’t necessarily have to be visible to others, or a person shadow could be projected inside the stone body and not be seen from the outside. I dunno, just a thought.

I’ve always thought thunderclasts are a kind of frankenspren; a person and a chasm fiend mashed together. If so I reckon a gold shadow like we know Renarin can do would give it very literal cognitive dissonance and possibly be torturous. So that could be what happened.

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I think we've known for awhile now that different Orders shape their Plate from different Spren. Doesn't that mean that they all have a special function outside of the basic?

Possibly, but we don’t really know. We’ve only seen Kaladin using his Plate in an interesting way, so until we see another Radiant with a unique ability opinions will be split. I personally think yes, each Order has a unique Plate ability.

1 hour ago, Voidwatcher said:

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's power, directly. That's why it's end-positive, the power is coming from somewhere else, leaving your original abilities after the Metal ran out or is no longer burned unchanged. If a Push-based Metal removed the Connection, then you would have no benefit from burning a Push-based Metal, as you can't access the power of Pres. The Push and Pull is meant to use Preservation's power to affect objects, not Connection.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant, since it uses Preservation’s Investiture, it would have some authority influencing that Intent in the world around the Allomancer. Cadmium Pulling concentrates Preservation in the vicinity, slowing time; the opposite for bendalloy.

On 12/4/2023 at 1:30 AM, Voidwatcher said:

Don't have much to contribute, but you might be able to flip Cadmium and Bendalloy by how it affects everything OUTSIDE the bubble instead. Preservation definitely didn't preserve himself well, he ruined himself to preserve OTHERS by the whole Well of Ascension trap and The Mists. Ruin's entire goal was to get the Atium without letting anybody else have it, he wanted to preserve himself so he could ruin OTHERS. Don't know if this means much of anything, but it makes Cadmium of Ruin, since you are making time faster for the OTHERS, and Bendalloy for Preservation, since you are making time slower for OTHERS. Sorry for the wild emphasis on 'OTHERS'.

Aren’t those just the exceptions that show the lengths they went to to fulfil their Intent? The Vessels were certainly affected; Leras was presumably unchanged and Ati was unrecognisable, but the powers themselves aren’t really self-directed.

Anyway, I figure that since Allomancy uses Preservation’s power the Pulling one is gathering Preservation to you and the Pushing one removing its influence.

17 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

The weirdest thing to me about this, is that Honor says to Dalinar in WoK that looking into the future is forbidden, right before talking about looking into the future and how Cultivation is better at it than he is. Maybe he was going crazy by then? But the idea existed before the Vorin church. Maybe it was Honor's instability that caused it? Either way, BS doesn't write obvious contradictions for nothing. There is definitely a reason that it's forbidden, but I feel like I end up spinning in circles every time I think about why this would be.

Well, what’s forbidden for the people isn’t necessarily forbidden for the Shards. Presumably the people would be forbidden it because they could only get it from Odium (outside of directly being told by Honour or Cultivation).

This theory is an offshoot of the ‘each Shard corresponds to one of the metals’ theory.
I figure Preservation can’t really create on their own, only keep things as they are; it and Ruin are also relatively flavourless Intents, being very fundamental and without much meaning beyond their core concept. So perhaps instead of inventing new powers for the 16 metals to grant, Preservation’s Investiture just used the Connections the metals already have with Shards to grant abilities related to that Shard’s magic systems. We can see the universality of the abilities the metals have in fabrial tech.
As I see it, the allomantic and feruchemical power of a metal translates into some of the major mechanics of the corresponding Invested Art, although it can be twisted/reinterpreted a bit to make it work.

For the least controversial metal-Shard examples:
Duralumin-Honour: Bondsmiths create their own Investiture and their job is to form a web of trusting relationships around themselves, which matches duralumin perfectly.
Nicrosil-Endowment: The major modes of Awakening are passively holding a lot of Investiture (feruchemy), or using it to Invest an object with some power (allomancy).
Cadmium-Preservation: Allomantically it is the power to keep things the same like how Allomancy doesn’t change the user or the metals’ abilities.
Bendalloy-Ruin: Increases change like Hemalurgy warps the recipient
(The problem with this theory is the feruchemical powers of cadmium and bendalloy are a great match for eating metal and having the metal in your blood, but they are switched. This could be explained away by the closeness of those Shards and the slightly messy nature of the Metallic tables)

If this model is correct it might help us figure out the basics of future magic systems and which Shard corresponds to which metal. I have some ideas for more but I’m keen to hear other people’s thoughts. Let me know yours 

9 hours ago, Argenti said:

This one is hotly contested because star spren are rather rare. The other common one is Gravityspren/ Gravitationspren or Luckspren.

We don’t really know how rare starspren are since they can only be seen from certain angles. They could be everywhere for all we know. Also, we don’t have info for the frequency of gravitationspren; we’ve never ‘seen’ them directly.