Flaming Coinshot

Great to see you!

Really? Really? Someone already did this to me today.

I think you can slightly push the bullet to put it on course and then blast it

Or maybe moonlight actually means something and has huge implications for the Cosmere? That'd be weird.

I was banned from pillow fights for the foreseeable future due to a undisclosed Christmas party incident.

yep. Also, the Deux ex machina is the only nessecary deus ex machina ive ever read. Gwammer good. Speleng gud

You're still ignoring the centuries of technology required. Sure, gunpowder might not be necessitated but everything else is still required. Really? Ok, I didn't know that. Again, Seekers and Tineyes could probably prevent that.

It's not equal. Some have far more than others. Ishar's insane and taking spren apart. ...No. Millimeters? Really? But that's the entire point. That's how Roshar would win. That's how the Taliban won, that's how the Americans won the west, that's how Germany conquered Europe, that's how wars are conducted. You don't try to kill all your enemies. You scare them. But I don't think there are many. I feel like the Scadrians could set up an ambush if you moved them through PR (thanks for the lingo, Frustration), but if you could sneak it through the CR into, say, the Southern Roughs, it'd be very effective. Although any talented seeker could find it eventually. Firearms are tough to make. Believe me. Rosharans don't have the technology. This is something I have some expertise on, knowing a couple gunsmiths/shop owners and a few military historians. (Friends of family, people I've met.) Rosharans would need: Much more advanced metal refining techniques, gunpowder (something they've never encountered), a way to bore out the barrels (which requires them to have even more technologies), and, if they want the level of Scadrian firearms, rifling, a technique that requires expertise and tools that the Rosharans are literal centuries away from. Ideally, they'd start with bronze-cast cannons and work their way down and up, but the Scadrians are far past that point, far past the musket and flintlock stage, reaching the artillery/cartridge stage, so Roshar would need to put their best scientists on catching up centuries of technological development without material, expertise, or technology. Most of the points in your point are very valid, but this is one that will never, ever happen. Also, one thing not mentioned to much but I feel the need to note is that Shardplate and Blade are useless in this fight, because Scadrial has electrolysis, allowing them to produce aluminum. And if you want to argue about the timeline, then I'll say that we know Lost Metal is before Five, and I'm assuming this would happen later, and the chemist said electrolysis would be within five to ten years. You say that firearms depend on the troops, but you're not talking about the technological jump Rome made in the Punic War. You're talking about skipping eight centuries of technological advancement. Even with fabrials, that's a stretch. For the men of red and gold, I thought Marasi and company burned it all away so that the portal cut out. All this said, though, I want to try to be a bit of a mediator here and say that these arguments are really refining, especially when you look at 4 pages back. And it's a really good topic, so just kinda keep your cool and have respect for the honestly pretty good opinions on both sides. Also, is making a chart or something to keep track of the individual arguments a good idea? Or bad idea, or just unnesecary.

He did it, in BoM. A good electrum user could analyze the future quickly and move based on that, maybe warn their superiors if they see something special. One with Zinc could operate far better. Steelrunner, easily. But shooting a Windruner out of the sky is going to be very difficult. Then how did Urithru fall? That's what I'm talking about. A large-scale distraction that can't be ignored complemented by a highly skilled strike team carrying remote-detonation H-T bombs. Even if they don't destroy a city, the psychological effect is huge, and the disruptance of logistics is also important. The fact that Scadrians can effectively hit Rosharan convoys while the Rosharans can't do the same (Scadrial can mass-produce metals and aluminum, and it's defensive capabilities outpace Roshar (Iron)). You don't need to, I think. It's a scalable mathematical equation. The Americans didn't make a Tsar Bomba because they didn't know how. It's because they didn't want to and they felt it was too tactically stretching. The Scadrians don't have such weaknesses. Well...that's implied. In a true scorched earth campaign, I think Scadrial would do far more damage. The Rosharans have complex honor codes and oaths holding them back. The Scadrians are focusing on high damage output. On a tactical and battlefield level, Roshar will likely win. But they won't win the war. Scadrial is simply winning to do more. It's like the Civil War. One side has more romantic ideals of war and honor with better generals and *technically* better troops, but the other has a larger industrial base, navy, and the scorched earth tactic.

Pitched battles are shockingly stupid. The Europeans, a people whose continent is largely fields and flat land, tried to get battles in forest, marsh, and hills because fighting pitched battles on neutral ground is so shockingly dumb. I don't mean to be rude, even if it doesn't seem like it, I'm trying to point out that a pitched battle is unlikely for both sides, especially when you have world's worth of people on both sides. But moving metalborn is far easier. Still, I think your estimates about the size of Radiants is a little too hopeful. Radiants depend on the psychology of spren, some who think Odium is preferable to humans. Meanwhile, metalborn are just products of population trends. Uhh-the reason why their fully charged is so that the wearer can see through all three realms, and push on virtually anything. What are you mentioning here? Sorry, I couldn't find it. Generators? But yeah, this one's tough to imagine. It'd likely involve multiple, massive fleets of airships primed with hundreds of metalborn. Kandra? But yeah, they can't communicate...maybe a new use of duraluminum? But Bronze detects all investiture. Or at least the high amount being expelled by transcending the border between realms. Other theory: bloodmakers used as meat bags in the unlikely case of a large-scale battle. Here's the thing about all of these theories, though. Modern warfare (even some older warfare) isn't necessarily about large-scale battles. Or rather, those who are remembered as military geniuses don't start those. Instead, it's logistics, careful planning, large-scale ambushes, and multiple small-scale ambushes. It's getting behind enemy lines and causing disruptances. It's putting psychological fear in your enemy. Roshar has the advantage when everyone around fights the same and has shared history. But Brandon has said that Kelsier would win in a fight between him and Kaladin, and the reason why reflects their planets' warfare. Roshar will try very, very hard to catch Scadrian forces. But said forces will do their best do avoid, draw in, ambush, and launch surprise offensives. And Scadrial is well equipped to do that, while Roshar is well equipped to carry out their strategy. No doubt, in a siege or pitched battle, Roshar will win. But I think, based on existing martial traditions and magic, Scadrial will win in virtually anything else. They will not win on a massive offensive campaign. They will win if they can draw Rosharan forces, trap them briefly in an ambush, and then launch a surprise attack on immobile Rosharan war commands and cities. Roshar can try to siege Scadrian cities, but things like land mines and artillery will make that hard. Bronze compounders and allomancers can keep watch alongside tin metalborn to make sure enemies don't slip past, while iron and pewter users can catch those that do. Twinborn backed up by allomancers and ferrings is just such an appealing model for war. However, Scadrial will not win in the conventional sense. If they try to, Roshar will grab them by the neck and break them. Instead, they'll wear the people and troops of Roshar down. They'll drive Roshar's command insane with surprise attacks and deft reactions. Scadrians literally can use Bronze compounders to quickly analyze situations to come up with the best outcomes, Electrum allomancy and feruchemacy is immensly useful on the battlefield, and the destructive capabilities of even a coinshot are incredible. (Wax's rampage in Bilming). Sure, Radiants are probably more versatile than I give them credit for. But their entire model (besides Lightweavers) is to provide a bulwark between their immortal, untiring, overwhelming enemy and humanity. That's not a group designed for subtlety or deft militaristic maneuvering. Most of Scadrial is. What isn't, it's designed to be even more domineering than Roshar. Massive (or at least fairly large) airships. (Thanks Frustration!) A navy that can far outpace everything Roshar has. It would be close, definitely, but in the end, Scadrial is just more annoying. Sorry, I meant storing Identity. And it took Wax some ten minutes. I think it'd take a talented Bondsmith. Of which we have none. Yeah, you're right, I should've considered that. But the idea of a metal ship is inconceivable to the Rosharans, while it's a tiny aside to Scadrial. Alright, thanks. Hey, could Chromium drain Stormlight? Because if it can, that's also huge. Think about it. Flying platforms crashed if they can get one person onboard. Radiants taken out mid-battle. It'd be a pretty large (if hard to exploit) advantage.

No, unsealed metalmind for aluminum that stores the spiritual sense of identity-meaning they're untracable by invested methods.

No problem. Same here. Alright. Actually, it's multiple posts so I'll write it out. Nicrosil is used in conjunction with aluminum to create unsealed multiple power metalminds. If you look at the Ars Arcanum, Nicrosil is showed as "stores Investiture," and Brandon said that Nicrosil can be used to store Breaths and Surges. (Check the Coppermind, it's there.) And I know it's not canon, but the Mistborn Adventure Game Alloy of Law supplement described a Nicrosil Compounder as "opening new paths in magic." So, I'm assuming if they can store breath, then they can store Investiture and tap it as Allomantic Powers or Feruchemical stores. And here's my theory on unsealed metalminds. The nicrosil is required for the investiture to cross-transfer and not interfere with the aluminum and everything, kinda like an insulator. I need to flesh that one out a little more, though. I think it's important, because think about it. And these examples, I hope they don't offend anyone, I'm just trying to dredge them up from my memory. Germany invented jet planes and Britain invented carpet bombs during WW2, the Mongols/China started using gunpowder cannons during various wars, longbow tactics were invented during the Hundred Years' War, et cetera. It's important because time doesn't move in a vacuum. In the event of war, both worlds will drive all their efforts, natural resources, and people towards winning. And that means that they need better ways to fight. Roshar's biggest problem, I think, will be the large varieties of allomacer, ferring, and twinborn as well as the large quantities of them. As you said, it will take a while for the Radiants to approach the level of mastery or the quantity the metalborn have. But individual Radiants are more powerful than the vast majority of metalborn. They will get more powerful as they clash. However, Scadrial's relative technological advancement is actually faster than Roshar's. I figured this out by looking at Earth's advancement and comparing them. While Roshar has flying machines, their navy's technology has barely progressed, and they've been using the same weapons for decades, if not centuries. Meanwhile, the Rosharans have invented machine guns, large scale explosives, and more. I'm sorry, I think that Roshar's technological prowess can outpace even anti-voidlight. I mean, that took two of Roshar's best scholars, and it took them months. Aluminum? Would that work? I'm sorry, I'm not very well understanding of how Aluminum works.

Nicrosil Compounder. If you want me to, I can find the post where I talked about this at length. Also, in theory, Harmony could create one. I'm not super certain on that one, though. Oh yeah, Scadrial has electroyisis or whatever it's called which means they can mass-produce aluminum, a metal that blocks shards, prevents teleportation, et cetera. They can? Wow, that changes a lot. Still, I'm assuming it's hard to move large objects like that effectively, especially when constant harrying by your super-fast, very stealthy enemy is happening. Another thing I want to mention: bullets fired from something like Vindication II or Steel Survivor will hurt. Like with Bloodmakers, healing is important but shrapnel and high-velocity bullets hurt. Like, permanent trauma hurt. You could potentially knock out Radiants with those. Also, how plausible would it be that Coinshots with F-TIn could snipe Shardplate visors? Like, redirect all the aluminum machine gun bullets at the visor. Or direct shrapnel through the visor.

I think that thinking of everything in terms of transport as "using the Perpendicularities" or Elsecalling. Railways are *relatively* easy to lay down, and airships are effective methods of transport. Actually, can someone get size estimates for the South Scadrian warships? Oathgates don't go to Scadrial. Also, sorry for my density, but what's CR? And the last one, portals are effective but they require a lot of Stormlight, and they're flashy. Guns-an invention that is limited to Scadrial and also vital-will be useful. For that matter, so will shrapnel and incindenary grenades, Allomantic grenades, and machine guns. Bullets are considered able to break Shardplate, especially ones delivered with the consistency and velocity of machine gun-fired bullets. As for "unbeatable on home ground," I think that Roshar has an advantage with the Radiants and Oathgates, but there's something we're missing: Fullborn. Irregardless of how you get them, they're possible, and unfairly powerful. A single Fullborn can take on any 5th Ideal Radiant with relative ease. By compounding Steel and healing Gold, one can run at unthinkable speeds, especially with the occasional steeljump. It's a power that's very, very hard to get pinned down in the first place. It's a tank that can move faster than anything in the Cosmere besides light, and it has high agility, survivability, intelligence, damage output, and everything else. Think about it. A Fullborn can blend into a city with Aluminum and Duralumin, hide in the wilderness with steel, tin, and bendalloy, and can survive any scrap with a combination of Chromium, Pewter, TIn, Zinc, Steel, and Iron. Oh-and they can store breath, surges and-most importantly-create new reserves all with Nicrosil. I move that we ban Fullborn, or they just render the argument useless. Of course, I may be overestimating the power of a Fullborn again.

First Point: Yes, you're right, but you're ignoring the fact that in Alloy, Harmony mentioned that the Basin should have heavier-than-air flight at that point, and our own history has proven that war tends to do funny things to people's scientific motivation towards weapons. Also, the destructive capability of Scadrial against cities and large armies (both important fixtures of Roshar) is far greater than vice versa. My theory (and correct this if you disagree) is that even though Rosharan troops will win against Scadrian troops in a pitched battle, Scadrial can use its undeniably superior navy and production capabilities of airships, harmonium bombs, and more warships to simply blast Rosharan cities into submission. In a large scale war, protecting your cities is more vital than winning field battles, especially when their strategy is "draw Radiants to the field, use the Bands/Twinborn/Allomancers/Ferrings/Kandra to occupy them, and then shell/bomb encampments and cities with duraluminum Coinshots or whatever to protect airships. Yeah, I was off on the timeline. Sorry about that. But you have to admit that Scadrial's technological advancement is much faster than Rosahr's, and they're much further ahead at a similar time period. Soulcasting isn't that impressive. Here, let me explain. I ran some quick searches and numbers, and Elendel is about the same size if not larger than early 1900s London, (both are around 5 million) which I figured was a good starting point as they're both central cities in large empires that are entering or in the Second Industrial Revolution. (This, of course, doesn't account for the larger world in which unless the Southern Scadrians have massive cities, our earth far outstrips Scadrial in population.) Soulcasting is a crutch for Rosharan cities, allowing them to produce far more food than they should be able to, but it can be disrupted (albeit with a fair amount of difficulty) and despite it the Rosharans don't have a single city close to Elendel, New Seran, or Bilming's size. This leads me to believe that Soulcasting's limits prevent it from approaching the level of industry the Scadrians have. Another thing that's pretty experimental/theoretical is that Scadrial should have some key technologies at this point. Maybe heavier-than-air is a bit of a stretch at this point, but looking at our own history radio and lighter-than-air are significantly enough to, sequentially, coordinate large navies and armies (both of which Scadrial can quickly raise) and the other has massive destructive capabilities against cities (especially with Harmonium bombs.) I think your point about the air force is kinda valid. Windrunners are valuable, but they can be blindsided and are at a range disadvantage against protecting lurchers/coinshots, especially ones with duraluminum. I also think that Kandra meatbags in all aspects of the war will negate or at least weaken Radiant advantages. On this, however, I'm very curious in hearing (well, reading) everyone's thoughts. And the last point, one that might not really be valid, is that Scadrial will have an easier time finding allies in the event of an unusually long war. Cultivation focuses on Roshar, Odium is Cosmere-wide hated, and, as Dalinar and Kaladin are so fond of saying, Honor is dead. Meanwhile, Harmony has tried multiple times to establish contact throughout the Cosmere. Does this count? Yes? No? Kinda? It does, but it's irrelevant? Anyway, all of these are really interesting arguments from y'all. Wait, one thing I missed, trying to calculate the output of Harmonium is going to be tough because we don't have an accurate control or a varied data set. We have the understanding that blowing up Harmonium is bad, and a battleship worth will destroy Elendel, but (to my memory) the only actual detonation we see is in a subdued environment (a steel+concrete safe box) that causes a fairly large explosion from an unknown (at least exactly) quantity of two metals we have no knowledge of except their the bodies of gods that don't exist in our world, and the explosion itself is a result of a force that doesn't even exist in our universe. Last thing: gravity on Scadrial is different, and the atmosphere/chemical makeup of Scadrial is different. Although you might get some guesses that might be close, the fact that the energy being released by the explosion, the lack of a data set or exact control group and the fact that the surroundings/impacted area might have basic, key differences from Earth means that it's going to be tough to get even a rough estimate of explosive power. Last thing, I promise. Harmonium I compare to nukes not because of their destructive power but because of how the power is released. Nukes split the atom, releasing a massive amount of energy. It's not *technically* about the size of the bomb, it's the size of the reaction. That's slightly different with Harmonium. Harmonium uses a separation agent, like an anti catalyst (Trellium) in order to...you know what, new sentence. Ignoring Shard's intent and *again, technically* ignoring Investiture, Harmonium will split because Trellium acts as an ignition for a process started when running an electrical current through Harmonium in order to superheat it or get a current going or whatever it is. Trellium's anti-Harmonium nature means that it will naturally try to split from Harmonium, Harmonium is weakened, it splits, and like when atoms split, it releases a large amount of energy. The fact that Brandon, for once, had Wax and company foresee the explosion means that it's deadly. Bad enough, probably, that Wayne putting up a speed bubble and then tapping Gold wouldn't be enough or would be very difficult to pull off. This, of course, is pure speculation. But I think that this is important, because while not having the radioactive property of a nuke or its simpler "detonate, chain reaction, explosion" the Harmonium has stronger explosive capability. The reason why this is relevant is partially because of how Harmony referred to it. An "investiture-energy-matter transfer" or whatever. If you look at basic...physics? Whatever field it is, you see that matter and energy are essentially the same. The ability to interchange these is incredibly powerful. It's, in fact, the basis of life on Earth and throughout the known Cosmere. When you add Investiture to this, you get something that starts closer to fission and ends closer to fusion. TL,DR or "I can't understand this lunatic's ravings": Harmonium has higher explosive capabilities than nukes but less "let's raise cancer rates than everyone" but potentially can highly invest in an area and potentially rip the Spiritual fabric of an area apart. d P.S. I wonder what would happen if you detonated one at a Perpendicularity... P.P.S I'm sorry if some of my connections in that last paragraph are a little hard to follow, I tend to rave a bit and have some trouble expressing how I think things link. Please let me know if something doesn't make sense. I lied to you all there's one last thing I want to mention. I can cite specific examples if you want them, but quality of troops and battlefield decisions do not necessarily determine wars, especially more modern ones. It's how effective logistics of all kinds and information gathering are, and Scadrial has the edge in both. (Organized government, better abilities at stealth (you know, they're guys don't start glowing when they magic), and arguably most important, radio.) (Also, a big one:troop transportation. Airships like the warship and battleships as well as railways can move larger quantities of troops longer distances faster than the Rosharans can, although the Rosharans will likely win in speed if they have powerful Elsecallers.) So while Radiants and the Rosharan martial tradition will certainly have a large effect, there are other large factors at play in which Scadrial has the advantage.

With new info from Lost Metal, Also, for the anti-stormlight bomb, Elendel is the largest known city in the Cosmere by a lot. Maybe total population Roshar will top off Scadrial, but in terms of potential, Rosharan cities are smaller than Earth cities at a similar time even with Soulcasters. Meanwhile, Scadrian cities are about the same, if not larger as Earth counterparts during our Industrial Revolution. And Roshar doesn't have the industrial capabilities to make enough to wipe out the major cities of Scadrial. Meanwhile, (spoilers from Lost Metal above), Scadrial has the technology and means to decimate massive amounts of Roshar or Rosharan-style armies at once.

Tak closed his eyes and opened his mind, trying very, very hard to feel something. He opened his eyes after a few seconds, dejected. Around him, he saw his fellows students concentrating, some gasping. Strangely, one was doodling. He shrugged. It was, after all, time to try something different. He adopted a straight-backed, simple meditational pose and focused on the surroundings. He imagined the soul of the room, the spirits of those around him and-right there. He felt a loose thread and grabbed onto it, holding on tight as it tried to escape. He grinned as he embraced the spirit in his soul, imprinting it with wild ideas, hopes, and dreams. The spirit was resistant at first, but he could feel it-more of a general impression of it's overreaching will, really-begin to be intrigued. In his head, Tak laughed maniacally. And he whispered to his new spirit. "There's a lot more where that came from, buddy." The spirit responded with a bit of worry, a lot of intrigue, and a fair amount of deviousnesses. Tak could work with that. "Now, let's go make a list of...what was it?" He checked his chicken scratch notes. "Oh, no. Impulsive behavior. This ought to be fun." The spirit pulsed with dread.