grinachu

10 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I find it highly doubtful that Nahadon was a Bondsmith, or rather, a surgebinder of the surges of Adhesion and Tension, as he was around before the Knights Radiant as an organization was formed. Consider this exchange from Dalinar's first vision of him.

- Way of Kings, Chapter 60

From these two passages at least, my impression from Nohadon is that he's casting a line between him as the king, and the surgebinders, a pattern which seems to repeat itself in his speech. Therefore, I find it unlikely that he was one.

An interesting idea however, to be sure.

 

I agree something weird is going with Nohadon but there is some evidence that he was bonded with an Honorspren (as opposed to Karm, who is bonded to a different spren). 

Quote

 

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.”

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “The Way of Kings.” iBooks. 

 

 

Also, Odium calls Nohadon dead: 

Quote

 

“What were you seeing?” Odium asked, curious. He tapped his scepter on the ground like a cane. Nohadon’s palace—where Dalinar had been moments before—materialized out of light beside them. “Ah, this one again? Looking for answers from the dead?”

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer.” iBooks. 

 

I think it's more likely that the voice that Dalinar hears is Honor's cognitive shadow.  

That being said, I think Nohadon is a mystifying figure. He speaks of Surgebinders, not Knight's Radiant so it's clear they have not been founded yet.  At the same time, in his first vision, Dalinar sees Nohadon wearing the symbol of the Knight's Radiant.  We are told that Ishar founded the KR, at other places that Nohadon did. 

Yet we know he travels to Urithiru by foot. So the city must already exist. I think it was founded in his lifetime. 

Torol Sadeas was way better than the man who succeeded him as Sadeas.  Also, he never tweeted and was never caught on tape boasting about his power over women. 

The worst of Roshar > the real world. 

I think I know where the voidlight in the spheres that Gavilar has came from. He discovered Bo-Ado-Mishram locked up in the Alethi palace:

Quote

“Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.
—From drawer 30-20, fourth emerald”

 

I think Eshonai will be "returned" as a Fused. 

Just now, Leyrann said:

This quote from your own post disproves the theory, though. If Odium was working with Cultivation, he would not fear exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation.

Fair point. My assumption is they worked together to kill Honor as a one-off step, not that they have an alliance.

There remains the question if you don't accept my theory, of the "we".  Who does it refer to exactly?

Quote

 

“No!” Odium screamed. He stepped forward. “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!”

 

Quote

“I do not feel like men. I do not sicken like men. I am. The Stormfather rumbled. I could have been destroyed, though. Splintered into a thousand pieces. I live only because the enemy fears exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation.
“So she lives still, then? The third god?”

Quote

“Well, first I’d see to Cultivation’s death. ”

[...]

“A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.”

[...]

“Honor cared only for bonds. Not the meaning of bonds and oaths, merely that they were kept. Cultivation only wants to see transformation. Growth. It can be good or bad, for all she cares. The pain of men is nothing to her. Only I understand it. Only I care, Dalinar.”

 

So here's what we know about Honor's death.  First, Rayse is considered the most dangerous of the 16, because he has a long tradition of killing other Shards.  Second that he was bound at one point by Honor and Cultivation.  And we also that notwithstanding the fact that he was bound, he somehow managed to kill Honor.  We also know that he remains determined to kill Cultivation and remains afraid of her. All of this begs the question. How did he killed Honor in the first place?

His response to Dalinar's transformation provides a clue. He screams "we killed you.  WE KILLED YOU". But who is the "we" that Odium would accept as having been an equal assassin? The answer is Cultivation. Why would she join Odium in murdering Honor?

Because, as Odium himself says, Cultivation cares "only wants to see transformation. It can be good or bad".  Her Shardic Intent is actually opposed to Honor's desire to keep oaths, bonds and circumstances unchanged.  More importantly, from a self-preservation perspective, Odium knows something she doesn't.  Odium knows how to kill a god. By joining Odium in Honor's murder, (which Odium cannot resist given their past history) she has learnt the secret from him. This makes her very dangerous for him, and the first target he wants to kill. 

It was "written" by the Sunmaker, who realized that the only way to delay a Desolation was to force humanity to keep fighting.   

We don't have specific confirmation that Melishi is a Bondsmith, no. 

The reason I think that Ishar could masquerade as a Radiant Bondsmith is that Bondsmiths seem to be in a category apart: as the Stormfather warns Dalinar, he will be a Radiant without shards.  And of course we don't know what the Heralds can do even without the Honorblades. 

I don't think the Parshendi were bound before the Last Desolation.  The preface to the Way of Kings suggests that the Parshendi did in fact fight in the battle. 

This is a tiny theory, really.  We know that the Heralds stuck around on Roshar, and that at some point following the Last Desolation the Parshendi were enslaved as Parshmen.  We know that it was done, according to Gavilar, by "capturing an ancient, crucial spren". (Oathbringer, Prologue).  We also know the process was undertaken by Melishi, one of the Bondsmiths, and that it was shrouded in mystery. 

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address. ”

So here's my theory: Melishi =Ishi =Ishar.  Ishar pretended to be a Bondsmith and came up with a way to enslave the Parshmen.  After all, no one knew as much as Ishar about the very nature of Heralds and their divine duties.  And his supposed hurriedness preventing him from recording what was done was because by that point his madness was already incipient., i.e. he didn't want anyone to know what he did so that they could replicate it or steal the credit.  

18 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

So, lets say that there is, hypothetically, an Unmade lurking in Urithiru. Let's say Shallan finds it. Then what are they going to do about it? It is a powerful, evil Odiumspren. Our main action hero, the go-to guy when it comes to fighting these kinds of thing, is currently away road-tripping with pseudo-Voidbringers and wierd spren. Our remaining Radiants are either not that great when it comes to combat (Shallan), untrained (Dalinar) or both (Renarin). Then we have Adolin, with plate and blade, our new Dustbringer, Malata, whose abilities and skills we are uncertain about at this point, Taln, who is good at mumbling mantras, Mraize, who can potentially engage the Unmade with a chicken and a blowgun, and Sadeas corpse, who I guess can be thrown at the Unmade. 

My point is, do the people in Urithiru, even if they pool their skills and resources together, have the strenght to tackle an Unmade, if they find one?

I don't think the Unmade can be physically fought.  I think they have to be bound, possibly by Navani and her artifabrians. 

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

I strongly doubt he could do this. 

The visions are prerecorded scenarios intended to show specific interactions. The players within them are able to act within their role and respond accordingly, but if you were to try and leave the area of the scenario, or push them to act outside of the visions boundaries, it seems to me that the players within would either reject the actions and continue along their predetermined course, or the vision itself would break and end. 

I see the logic, but that doesn't seem to be the full picture. After all, it appears the individuals in the Heb scenario are able to react to Dalinar's behavior in a way that is responsive in real time, and very unlikely to have been mirrored by the real Heb (i.e., picking up a poker to fight Midnight Essence or having the extended conversation about coming to Urithiru for a place in one of the Orders.) 

Actually, the only individual in the visions who is unable to react to Dalinar is Honor/Tanavast.  So it seems Honor/Tanavast can permit Dalinar some form of limited time travel, maybe more than he intended. 

I  am reading the Secret History, and I found two more names. 

Cephandrius - it seems like Hoid's original name. 

Senna - I think she is one of the 16 bearers of Adonalsium.

2 minutes ago, Hischier said:

They weren't acting honorably. Maybe they had a good reason for why they did what they did, or at least one that we'll be able to empathize with once we know what caused the Recreance, but breaking their bonds and leaving the weapons out for everyone to grab and start killing each other with is in no way honorable.

And we don't know the Knight's side of the story but we have the perspective of the Stormfather who no longer trusts humans and feels betrayed by them to the point where he refuses the honorspren to form bonds, and we have Syl's admittedly vague memory when Kaladin asks her what changed (presumably referring to the Recreance) and she replies 'the knights did' or something close to that. 

So we know that they were "fighting the devils on the front lines".  We know that there seems to have been some sort of siege, and that they obtained some kind of knowledge that led them to break their Nahel bonds and abandoning the spren.  The whole mystery about the Recreance has been set up for the reveal that those "Knights were the first, and they were also the last" of the Radiants who acted honorably. 

We know the Windrunners and the Stonewards were the primary Radiants who did this, and the Skybreakers apparently never did.  It's because they found out something that placed them, like Kaladin, in a situation of conflict between two oaths.  Maybe it was the knowledge that their Spren bond was causing the "Desolations".  The more humanity united, the more Odium would be free to attack the innocent. 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Your giving The Envisigers interpretation of the First Oath far to much credit. 

We have WoBs saying that this assertion is untrue. Their the foundation of my assertion that Taravangian will be a rival Bondsmith and remain a villain. 

Edit: rather than try and dig them up again, just read the WoBs in the first post of my thread here. 

 

I'm not seeing your first post with the WOB.  Can you please share a link? Thank you. 

Are these letters WOB?

4 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 

It may be T is an agent of Cultivation as many think, but I do seem him as evil. One does not prevent the other. Some say that evil is not so easy to define. Well. T murders, he lies, he hides, he breaks and destroys, he brings grief and destruction on a scale that makes Gavilar and his conquest seem an icepick next to an iceberg, he takes the easy path, he doesn't look for another better way. Together those are enough for me to mark him one one side of the coin. 

I agree.  The intent is irrelevant here.  the ideals of the Knights Radiant are precisely to stop this kind of reductivist morality. Journey before Destination. Life before Death.  T knows this, but rejects it anyway.  

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

 

In order for the KR to break their bonds, they would have to break their Oaths. Breaking their oaths is the antithesis of acting honorably. Merely abandoning their oaths would have them end up like Shallan was, with the bond slowly fading out.

It's an extrapolation of the line "there are no foolish oaths." Honor relates to keeping your promises, following your code. Breaking any oath is dishonorable, even if the oath was sworn in jest, or sworn centuries ago. The Stormfather does not take kindly to breaking deals, and that mindset was only made worse after the Recreance.

I agree with your analysis above - but I think the inference is that this is Honor's weakness as a shard - it becomes inflexible and obsessed with following a prior promise. The Stormfather encapsulates the same weakness.  Honor does not understand the burden that this places on individuals, whether Heralds, Knight's Radiant or others. Rigidity and resistance to change. Which is precisely why Honor's vision for redeeming humanity is the same vision that proved faulty before.  By uniting humanity, by resisting the Thrill and Odium's influence, Honor is allowing Odium to concentrate all his power.  

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'll caution stating assumptions as fact. Odium killed Honor. That is the only one of those three things that we actually know he has done.

Yes, I was being deliberately provocative.  I will say this. My reading of the vision at Feverstone Keep is that the Knights who abandoned their oaths were actually acting honorably. Something compelled them to abandon their nahel bond and so abandon their blade and plate.  

As for the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact, is there any doubt that they undermined the shard's intent by doing so? Honor invested its power in creating the Oathpact. Breaking promises hurts Honor.  

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

For now, none. 

The moment that Radiant activates Jah Keved's Oathgate though, irrevocable proof. 

What reason is there to think Taravangian can't have a Radiant? 

None, at all.  I just saw the claim in other places that Taravangian had a Dustbringer and was curious about the source.  I assume it is just chapter 13 of Oathbringer right?

I think Taravangian realizes that uniting Roshar, and following Honor's vision for Roshar, will only unleash Odium's ability to interfere in Roshar. This is the meaning of the epigraph: 

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.” –Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

The reality is that Odium has defeated Honor thrice over now, once by persuading the Heralds to abandon the Oathpact, once by destroying the Knight's Radiant, and finally by killing Honor himself.  

I have a question.  What evidence do we have that Taravangian has a Radiant at his command?

Here's my theory: There's a person on Roshar whose death would ensure victory against Odium, either because he's destined to be Odium's champion or some other reason. The new Knights will find out about this, but they will choose not to kill the person because he is innocent (for now).

Due to the following death rattle, I believe this person might still be an infant when the new Knights find him:

 

I was thinking of this exact same death rattle as well. My interpretation was however different. Human physiology in Roshar is distinct and contains equal amounts of Honour and Odium. Every time humans fight each other and kill, it leaches a little bit more power from the Odium shard. That's why killing the child is an extended metaphor. Ironically uniting humans will strengthen Odium and allow him to destroy the world much faster. 

The death rattle either refers to the past: i.e. that Tanavast allowed himself to be killed, in order to allow humanity to survive or the future, when Honor's champion recognises this, he will choose the survival of humanity over its unity. 

I like it. It has the "feel" of a KR Ideal. The Pious/Guiding Order is the Order of the Bondsmiths, by the way.

 

do you have a source for that? so Ishar was the Herald for the Bondsmiths?

we have a great deal of contradictory information about the founding of the Knights' Radiant and the timing of the vision that Dalinar has: from in world sources.  To summarise

1. Nohadon founded the Knight's Radiant

2. Nohadon was an ordinary man, not a Radiant. 

3. Ishi'Elin founded the Knight's Radiant. 

4. Nohadon was bonded to a Honorspren. 

5. The Way of Kings was the inspiration for the Knights' Radiant. 

In the midst of all this contradictory information, who is to say what is true and what is not? 

Small observation: Jezrien wears blue and white in the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive which is the same colour as the Kholin princedom even today. Kholinar, the capital of Alethkar, was also Nohadon's capital during Dalinar's vision. 

There is WOB where he was asked if Nohadon was still alive and he asked the questioner what made them ask that question. That made me think about sharing my favourite crackpot theory:

Jezrien is Nohadon. Or rather, Nohadon was Jezrien masquerading as the king of Alethkar seeking to lead and inspire the people of Roshar. 

My instinct comes from the similarities between the description of the two men as well as their emotions. 

'“Jezrien?”

The figure in white and blue glanced toward him. Even after all these centuries, Jezrien looked young, like a man barely into his thirtieth year. His short black beard was neatly trimmed, though his once-fine clothing was scorched and stained with blood. He folded his arms behind his back as he turned to Kalak.

“What is this, Jezrien?” Kalak asked. “Where are the others?”

“Departed.” Jezrien’s voice was calm, deep, regal. Though he hadn’t worn a crown in centuries, his royal manner lingered. He always seemed to know what to do. “You might call it a miracle. Only one of us died this time.”

There, in Jezrien’s eyes, Kalak saw anguish and grief. Perhaps even cowardice.

(WOK, Prelude)

“I don’t know what to do, old friend,” a voice said from the side. Dalinar turned to see a youthful man in regal white and gold robes, walking with his hands clasped before him, hidden by voluminous sleeves. He had dark hair pulled back in a braid and a short beard that came to a point. Gold threads were woven into his hair and came together on his forehead to form a golden symbol. The symbol of the Knights Radiant.

Dalinar felt himself grow short of breath. The man himself. Nohadon. The great king. He was real. Or he had been real. This man was younger than Dalinar had imagined him, but that humble, yet regal bearing… yes, it was right.

Nohadon leaned over the railing. He stared at the fallen, an expression of deep grief-and trouble-on his face. It was so strange to see the man like this. He was so young. Dalinar had never imagined such insecurity, such torment, in him.

(Chapter 60, WOK)

One more point about the intelligence granted to Taravangian and the acts it drives him to commit.

it is  an inversion of the creed of the Knights Radiant:

Destination before Journey: in order to secure the future of humankind Taravangian is forcedd to commit many immoral outrages.  

Death before Life: in order to save humanity, Taravangian is forced to murder again and again and to use murder and war as a tool of statecraft. 

Weakness before Strength: in order to succeed as the undisputed leader of  humanity, Taravangian has to act and be perceived to be weak and non-threatening. Even the Ghostbloods who know some of what he is up to, cannot understand his modus operandi

"No, Im not worried about that one. The old fool sows chaos , but does not reach for the power offered by opportunity. He hides in his insignificant city, listening to its songs, thinking he plays in world events. He has no idea. His is not the position of the hunter" (WOR p.633)