grinachu

Now that's an interesting theory. The idea of using the Dawnshards (or maybe using up the Dawnshards?) to bind the Parshendi so they turn into Parshmen... That's a good idea. I'm not sure if its true or not, but its a good idea.

If you read Jasnah's quotes, it's clear she doesn't know what the dawnshards are. The way the parshendi were turned into parshmen could be the big reveal for her book.

It follows if the parshendi were turned into parshmen then the voidbringers or the thunderclasts could have been turned into greatshells.

Link, I've developed a theory elsewhere about the Thrill, and about how that seems to be physiologically be causing warfare between men. Let me know if you buy it.

No matter what your stance on this point (I personally disagree), This is quite remarkable? Why is Odium's power to cause dissension centered only on the East?

If you read the post on highstorms, my madcap theory is that Honor/Tanavast's body is actually pulling the highstorms into it.

Maybe I'm being obtuse but I can't put my finger on where exactly you disagree with me.

I haven't read the post on highstorms, but isn't it the case that Urithiru was built westward in the place closest to Honor?

The problem with dawnshard= body of Honor is that dawnshards sound more magical than Honorblades from the way Honor talks about them, and the Honor blades themselves were weapons of power beyond shardblades.

Clearly a lot of Honor's power went into the creation of weapons, which makes the dawnshards even more crucial.

Like the basic problem I have with the missing years between Nohadon and the present day is- what the hell happened? At one point humanity was basically being halved every time the Desolations came.

And in the present day that threat just evaporated. Somewhere in between something must have happened that protected humanity. The consistent narrative of the descent/fall of man doesn't make sense because if humanity lost at the Final Desolation and lost at the Recreance (which occurred after Nohadon).

How come mankind is still standing?. What happened to the threat of the Unmade for instance, how did the parshmen lose their music and become slaves of mankind. The answer must be the dawnshards which can bind any creature.

I don't think we know enough about the Shin to be sure of which Shard, if any, they venerate/follow.

wow, I didn't think this was a controversial proposal. ok herewith some quotes to back it up.

"There is no greatness in killing,", Szeth said. "You speak like a kukori. Great men create food and clothing. He who adds is to be revered. I am he who takes away. At least in the killing of men such as these I can pretend to be doing a service". (missing page numbers on kindle for some reason sorry). It's I-6 A Work of Art chapter.

"Shin are a curious folk," he said. "Here, warriors are the lowliest of men- kind of like slaves. Men trade and sel them between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership, and any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same. The fellow in the fancy robe? He's a farmer....

"Rysn gaped "But most villages are filled with farmers!"

"Indeed, Vstim said. Holy places, here. Foreigners aren't allowed near fields or farming villages".

Now all this chimes fairly well with a shard called Cultivation and it's associated theology don't you think?

I also suspect, all there is rather less proof for this that the Horneater culture where the first born becomes a farmer and the second a trader, is also Cultivation influenced at least, but there's rather less evidence for this at the moment.

There is one curiosity: the Shin seem to worship "He who adds", rather than the feminine Cultivation that Honor refers to.

Sorry, didn't mean to threadjack.

Ah, what you are thinking of is the quote where they wanted to build Urithiru in the West so it could be closest to Honor It is indeed a chapter heading.

pg 519 WoK

Isn't Shinovar in the west? The Shin definitely follow cultivation.

Wait, I didn't know that! Is that from a Q&A or from the text?

It's on page 668 of 1036 in my ebook edition. It's Kaladin riding the storm just before the aged face tells him Odium reigns. Kaladin specifically observes that war was far less prevalent in the west than in the east.

And that's the thing. The reason many are kind of cautious about Cultivation theorizing is that we know two things about her:

1. She can see into the future better than Honor.

2. She is on decent terms with Honor.

3. She's on Roshar.

As for this:

I think that this compact is actually part of being a Shard. Like in HoA, how Ruin chose Marsh as his "spearpoint", and Vin chose Elend to fight for her. I think that this is a universal rule of Shardom.

(WoK 997)

Zas, I think we know more about cultivation than that. We know her shard name, we know her sex, we know quite a bit about her theology.

More importantly, we know that she has found a way to blunt Odium's power, independently of Honor.

We also know at one point, it was known generally there were three gods on Roshar.

And we are told about the importance of the dawnshards.

You are right that shardholders often work through surrogates, but when Scadrial was first created Preservation trapped Ruin himself at the Well of Ascension. We may suppose that at the beginning humanity was created on Roshar by one of these three or some combination thereof. I will note that Ruin and Odium are different powers. Ruin might thrive on the end of all life, but surely Odium needs hatred to sustain him, and for that hatred he needs men to be alive?

Interesting thread guys, definite food for thought.

Two questions and one thought.

1. Chapter 2 I think is titled 'Honor is Dead'. But when did he die exactly? Can we guess or estimate?

2. A dawnshard is mentioned as being used after the age of the Heralds. What purpose was it used for? Was it destroyed by use? And why did the Unmade disappear sometime after the reign of Nohadon?

I like the idea that the Dawnshards are in some way related to Honor's power. I would say this theory works because one of the few things we know for certain is that the Dawnshards can bind any creature voidish or mortal and that is Honor's power, to bind things.

The Dawnshards are discussed in relation to choosing a champion, not taking on Odium directly. I don't think they have that kind of power.

Let's posit that Honor=God and the Heralds=Angels. A champion, perhaps a Herald, would be able to take on Yelignar (let's call him a Beelzebub equivalent) with the Dawnshards because they can bind any creature, voidish or mortal. I'm not entirely sure what 'binding' means, but presumably it would be a restraint or influence, perhaps an imprisonment?.

Is it possible that Cultivation and Honor worked together in creating the Dawnshards? We generally neglect Cultivation's influence on Roshar but one of the signal things about the planet are that you have two forces for good working on the planet pitted against one terrible force of evil. Hence things like the Dawncities and Dawnchant might have been joint projects between them.

Since we know that Honor works by binding things, perhaps there was an original compact between Odium and Honor (whether consensual or co-ercive) or perhaps even all three gods that they could each choose champions and equip them with certain powers? Hence the Heralds with their Honorblades and powers and the Unmade with their powers.

The further thought I have is, it is possible to combine splinters? Would it be possible that the Dawnshards are in some way a combination of Odium's power with Honor's? That would explain their power to bond creatures voidish and mortal.

I'm racing off into the wild hills of speculation here for sure...

I'd say that the Old Magic, with its boons and curses, fits pretty well with Cultivation. Think about it, cultivating something means helping it grow. How do you do that? You give it something to help it grow and take away things that would tear it down or at least are unnecessary/cause it to grow in a way you don't want it to. From what instances we can confirm, those who saw the Old Magic ended up doing well despite their curses. Those who haven't? Well, they didn't end up growing the way they were intended to.

Does that make sense?

It does make a great deal of sense. Three questions, as much to move the conversation further as anything else.

1. In that case is all the business in Vorinism about Heightening and callings and being elevated a Cultivation-influenced development in Vorinism?

2. the specific examples given in the interlude involving Baxil, do you want to take a shot at seeing how your explanation fits with the gifts the Nightwatcher is recorded as giving?

3. I suspect that Dalinar asked for a boon involving his son's health. How does the gift of a boon and a curse work when there are two people involved?

I suspect what happened to Gaz had something to do with whatever he was paying Lamaril off for.

Lamaril was executed though. That implies others apart from Lamaril knew and/or were blackmailing him.

I'm curious if Ahir in TWoK is possibly Kiin from Elantris. He specifically says in TWoK "I've lost my Passion for cooking." Kiin had a strong passion for cooking in Elantris. Why else would Brandon put Passion in Italics?  I asked Brandon about this instance and he tried to side track me by saying "there is a Dula in TWoK." I kept trying to pressure him if I was correct on this theory and didn't get anything back more than "I have neither confirmed or denied any other world hoppers besides Hoid and the Dula." 

What's your thoughts on Kiin=Ahir?  Remember the Ahir is found in an interlude and is studying with a woman the different spren.  Seems like someone trying to gain knowledge.

The Passions are actually some form of pagan superstition aren't they? It's in the first Shallan chapter in Kharbranth when she talks to that sailor and he explains about the Passions. Yet another system of magic/superstition that is yet to be explained I think.

The Principle of Intent

You are going to love this theory. I guarantee it.

[url=http://www.17thshard.com/forum/

I do like this theory. My question would be, you have three shards on Roshar in the beginning. Honor, Cultivation and Odium* (I'm not 100% sold there wasn't another shard with Odium as visitor but that's for another day). Honor works by binding things, which I accept. How would Cultivation work? The Principle of Intent works reasonably well with shards like Ruin and Preservation, but Cultivation from what we've seen of it, has a distinct theology that actually doesn't emphasise battle or even magic at all.

Your theory works well with Odium fueling humans through the Thrill.

So I ran a brief search, but turned up nothing directly on point. My theory, of which I am pretty confident, is that the Thrill felt by Dalinar and others, including Sadeas and Elhokar is the power of Odium itself, which somehow physiologically has altered humans so that they rejoice in fighting and warfare. The evidence is to be found in Dalinar's vision in which he is encouraged to go to Urithuru because fighting even against the Ten Deaths will change him, and those moments when Dalinar suddenly feels revulsed by the slaughter and by the effects of the Thrill. It is somewhat like Ruin's power in Mistborn, whispering to Vin, making her doubt herself continuously. It's an unconscious power.

My second and third observations are that neither Kaladin nor Szeth feels the Thrill, which is quite interesting.

It makes some sense for Szeth because it seems he can't see spren for instance and so is different in other ways as well. However Kaladin's inability to feel the Thrill is a real mystery. Someone should ask Mr Sanderson about it.

My third observation is this chapter epigram- "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”.

Rather like in Mistborn I believe the discord in Roshar actually draws away Odium's power, and so if Dalinar or anyone else unites Roshar, in a very important way Odium will only get stronger. That's why Dalinar's uniting Roshar might actually be hugely counterproductive.

I know. I wonder. Is it a result of having survived the Storm? Of relying so much on Stormlight? On being Honorable? On Syl?

What I find more interesting is that Odium is coming. If the Highstorms are generated by someone holding a splinter of the Shard, how does Odium manage to ride them/infiltrate them?

Okay, let me rephrase. They no longer use their bodies But you're exactly right, they obviously still exist.

So what' Im confused about is the repetition. Child of Tanavast, Child of Honor. It's pretty clearly referring to two different entities. Also we really have no explanation for Kaladin's superhuman fighting skills.

I would suggest that there are two ways to read Brandon's carefully guarded comment that the original holder of the shard Honor was Tanavast. It's possible that some one else after Tanavast held Honour, indeed it is likely because we are told that Kaladin is the child of one long since departed, but Dalinar's vision of the Almighty and indeed the nature of the visions suggest that it is only recently that the Almighty has been kileed.

The other way is of course the dominant thought on this forum, which is Almighty held Honor until he died. Either nobody is holding Honor, or in someway Jezrien has taken up some of its power.

Following confirmation that Kaladin is a child of Tanavast, does that mean that Kaladin is somehow descended from the former holder of the shard? That would make a great deal of sense.