grinachu

I think the reason that the Nightwatcher has given Taravangian fluctuating intelligence rather than permanent super-intelligence has something to do with the nature of Investiture.

 

I think there are limits to the extent that there can be interference with free will exercised by humans once they have been created. They have to have the ability to choose differently from the heightened power granted by Investiture and granting Taravangian compassion and remorse on his not so good days, allows that balance to be maintained. 

 

There is a good parallel here with the Terris prophecies in Mistborn:

 

Mistborn Ch.2 

 

"If men read these words, let them know that power is a heavy burden. Seek not to be bound by its chains. The Terris prophecies say that I will have the power to save the world.

They hint, however, that I will have the power to destroy it as well."

I don't understand how it can be stated that the Dalinar's boon is to remove the grief of his wife's loss (as some posters have speculated) and the curse is to lose all memory of her. It seems like the boon and the curse collapse into one another- that is if you wish to overcome your grief the most efficient way is to remove all memory of the person whose loss is causing the grief. I would hope that Dalinar's boon and curse would be more original than that. 

I don't even know if we can make this assumption. Dalinar doesn't note that Nohadon's eyes are particularly pale, Nohadon never talks to a spren during the vision, he talks about "your Surgebinders" to Dalinar, he refers to Soulcasters separate from Surgebinders (implying he hasn't a lot of knowledge of how the Orders work internally)...

 

I lean slightly towards Nohadon not being a Radiant, though I grant it's possible. The most compelling evidence is when he says "The responsibility of what we've been given--whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond--needs to make us better.", and I don't think it's enough to peg him as a Radiant. The fact that the Knights were Ishar's and not Nohadon's according to "Taln", I think, is probably a hint that Nohadon didn't found the Radiants, they just used his book on philosophy to guide them in making the First Ideal.

 

Perhaps he became a Radiant after Dalinar's vision as he tried to unite the entire land. That would be when people would begin to perceive him as a uniter, which would attract a Bondsmith spren. We really don't have much to go on.

 

Nohadon does in fact imply that he has surgebinding abilities when he says that "alas not all spren are as discerning as honorspren", and seems concerned that Karm might take offence because "his own surgebinders were...". I think the speculation about Nohadon being a bondsmith must therefore be incorrect- he was bonded to an honorspren. 

 

It's interesting that the description of Nohadon in Dalinar's vision is almost identical to Jezrien in Kalak's POV. Youthful, regal, with dark hair and a short beard. It may be mere co-incidence, or then again it might be something more...

Great thread, OP. Just a few observations

 

1. Helaran's reasons for searching out the Skybreakers may well be his belief that his father had murdered his mother and his disgust that he got away with it. 

 

2. Helaran almost kills his father but stops himself from doing so when the only person with a true knowledge of the facts, Shallan, vouches for him. This is similar in some ways to Nalan's respect for the law in leaving Lift after she is pardoned. 

 

3. Jasnah's conversation with the Highspren implies that some of them have been alive since before the Recreance, and therefore there could in principle be surgebinding skybreakers. 

 

4. It is possible that Skybreakers are capable of Investiture but choose not to, for the same reasons that Nalan is hunting all potential Radiants - to avoid another Desolation. 

 

5. Nalan is extremely well informed of Szeth's journey, including why he does what he does and what orders he has been given. Nor can it have been an accident that he is on hand to revive Szeth almost immediately after the fight with Kaladin. This implies that either he or someone working for him has precognition abilities or is otherwise keeping very close watch of Szeth. 

The Ars Arcanum lines up Order 8/Amethyst with the essence of Foil, and Kalak's icon matches up with Order 8 on the Surgebinding chart. Also, Taln in his PoV says that Kalak will teach everyone how to work metal, which is probably where the association comes from.

 

thanks for the clarification- I was working on the Herald Specialisations and I guessed Herald of Building. though I suspect I am missing the more apt designation that Brandon has already chosen. I agree with your reasoning, I just don't think "Herald of Foil" matches up with "Herald of Beauty" or "Herald of Luck". It'll be another term. 

One more Cultivation related speculation to share, I think. Cultivation may be off-world as well  on one of the moons or another planet on the Rosharian system (see WOK ch. 75)

 

- "This isn't just about you either," the figure said, raising his hand into the air. A light winked out in the sky, one that Dalinar hadn't realized was there. Then another winked out as well. The sun seemed to be growing dimmer. "

 

This is a vision of the future, so the light winking out could be Cultivation leaving the Rosharian system. Or the light could be Reya's tear- the planet or moon, dying once the last ember of Honor is extinguished. The second light could be Odium destroying Braize and coming to Roshar. I don't know, but I think Cultivation may well be off-world rather than hunkered down in Shinovar. 

Where do you find that Kalak is the Herald of Foil? Is this WOB?

^

Interesting. But why would he *see* them then? It makes sense he'd been watched... but he takes notice of the spren watching him, which IMO indicates latent KR abilities

 

I don't dispute that he has latent KR abilities. At this point in the story though it's clear many, many people do - Lopen, Renarin, Eshonai.  The KR are going to be as prominent in this story as Allomancers are in the Mistborn trilogy.  

I actually had two alternate theories about the spren Elhokar sees. I was waiting for someone else to jump in with this, but here it goes. Here's the second of two. 

 

The front page of the Way of Kings (paperback) has artwork of the watching spren symbolheads. The back cover of the Way of Kings seems written from the point of view of a spren ..."There are four we watch...".  

 

Shallan repeatedly sees multiple symbolheads in the Way of Kings before Pattern manifests. In particular she sees them around Taravingian, also a significant player in the story, and around herself and she sees more than one of them:

 

1. WOK Ch.29

 

 "She had drawn something standing in the doorway behind the king. Two tall and willowy creatures with cloaks that split down the front and hung at the sides too stiffly, as if they were made of glass. Above the stiff, high collars, where the creatures’ heads should be, each had a large, floating symbol of twisted design full of impossible angles and geometries.

 

2. WOK Ch.38 "And five symbol-headed figures in black, too-stiff robes and cloaks. Each had a different symbol, twisted and unfamiliar to her, hanging above a neckless torso. The creatures wove through the crowd unseen. Like predators. Focused on Shallan."

 

These creatures sound very similar to the ones that Elhokar sees. These are not spren that have come to bound with humans. These are spren that have come to watch the significant events on Roshar. If it was a spren that came to bond with Elhokar, of whatever type, it would come singly, as Pattern, Ivory, Syl and Wyndle have done.  They are obviously scared away by Syl and/or Pattern. They are not Cryptics since Pattern is described quite differently from the symbolheads.

 

Jasnah describes these spren as related to their abilities as KR, but does not say they are the cause.  

 

So there you have it. Elhokar sees them becomes he is King of Alethkar and not  because he is a potential Knight Radiant. 

We know that Elhokar sees spren. In WoK chapter 58, Elhokar says, "They watch me. Always. Waiting. I see their faces in mirrors. Symbols, twisted, inhuman…”.

 

 I had assumed that Elhokar's potential ability to become a Radiant had simply been shelved for Book 2 as a plot point. However when re-reading Words of Radiance, I realised that if Elhokar is a Lightweaver like Shallan, then the only way he would progress would be to speak deep truths about himself. If you read the confrontation between Kaladin and Elhokar at the end of Words of Radiance therefore from Elhokar's perspective, he has finally spoken words that might well open the path to his becoming a Lightweaver in the future and might now have unblocked the path to becoming a Radiant himself. 

 

Am i on to something? 

There is also mention in WOR of Flameform as one of the levels of Voidbinding.

 

I also think we need to think about the change in the rhythyms of the Parshendi and how that fits into the change brought about by Odiumspren.  

Where are those confirmations on Ash and Ishi? I thought the Heralds specialization was what Highprinces roles are based upon and I can't really imagine what a Highprince of luck or beauty would do.  Also, there was a position of a Highprince of information in WoK and I don't see a Herald for this in your list. 

 

For Ash/Shallash - WOR p.357 ("Shallash, Herald of Beauty, Shallan's namesake"). 

 

For Ishi/Ishar - WOK Ch.23 & 24 (""Ishi, Herald of Luck be praised”)

 

I don't think there is any direct symmetry with the Highprinces. After all, I doubt there would be a Alethi Highprince of Beauty (maybe Sebarial?)

One thing I noticed in Words of Radiance was that each Herald is identified, and self-identifies, as the Herald for a particular characteristic.Taln calls himself the Herald of War, and as we see from the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive he more than lives up to that name. Shallash is the Herald of Beauty. Ishi/Ishar is the Herald of Luck. I've identified some characteristics that could work for the others. 

 

Jezrien Jezerezeh - King of Heralds (confirmed in WOR), Herald of Protection 

 

Nale Nalan - Herald of Justice (confirmed in WOR)

 

Chana Chanaranach - Herald of Courage

 

Vedel Vedeledev - Herald of Healing

 

Pali  - Palliah Herald of Knowledge/Discovery/Invention

 

Ash Shalash - Herald of Beauty* (confirmed in WOR)

 

Battar Batab - Herald of Wisdom/Perception/Prophecy

 

Kalak Kelek - Herald of Building/ Herald of Foil

 

Talenel Talenelat - Herald of War* (confirmed in WOR)

 

Ishar Ishi - Herald of Luck* (confirmed in WOR)

 

 

 

Do people agree?

Relis apparently had a Spren at the dual and apparently it would not let him attach defenseless Renarin, but he thought it was OK to attack Kaladin.     Obviously is was not OK & he "Killed" his Spren when he swong at Kal.    Both Kal and Relis hear the Spren's dying scream.     Then:

 

**Relis dropped the blade as if bitten.     He backed away, raising his hands to his head.     "What is it?      What is it!   No, I didn't kill you!"     He shrieked as if in great pain, **

 

So what kind of Spren was his Spren (Can't be honor yet - as so far Syl is the only one of those.

 

Do we have any other clues from the book somewhere?      Will Kal help him recover his Spren?       What type of KR would Relis be?

 

I can't find much to go on, but thought I would see if someone else could find some clues.

 

Would Kal even want to help Relis recover his Spren - The guy was going to kill him.

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

It is Pattern (Shallan's spren) who is communicating with him. I do not believe Relis has his own spren. 

I'm interested in the characteristic associated with each Herald. I've made an best estimate list.

 

Jezrien Jezerezeh - King of Heralds, Herald of Protection

 

Nale Nalan - Herald of Justice

 

Chana Chanaranach - Herald of Courage

 

Vedel Vedeledev - Herald of Healing

 

Pali ??? - Herald of Knowledge

 

Ash Shalash - Herald of Beauty

 

Battar Batab - Herald of Wisdom

 

Kalak Kelek - Herald of Building

 

Talenel Talenelat - Herald of War

 

Ishar Ishi - Herald of Luck

 

feel free to propose better fitting epithets.

He actually has foreseen Kaladin's abilities.  Graves even says as much.  And there's a tiny corner of the diagram that mentions the possibility that spren-based powers will reemerge.  However, I suspect that the not so good King underestimated how rapidly the abilities would develop.  And he *definitely* didn't account for anyone developing them as early as Jasnah and Shallan did (in Shallan's case, at least right up until her mother was killed and Shallan stunted her development as a Radiant).  I suspect that T would be horrified if he were to realize just how advanced Jasnah's abilities were, and how long she'd been using her powers.

You are right about him foreseeing Kaladin. I should have been more specific. He didn't foresee Kaladin's loss and recovery of his abilities. My intuition is that this will ultimately serve as a inoculation against the chapter 84 rpigraph.

Re Jasnah's abilities, the whole scene with the trapped grand daughter was a test of her abilities. He knows she is skilled at soul casting if nothing else.

I think Mr T is similar in some ways to The Lord Ruler. He's doing what is necessary but despicable.

Unfortunately his path depends on near perfect foresight which he lacks. It also assumes that others are oblivious to what is coming (except the return of the spren). It doesn't foresee Dalinar's visions. Or Kaladin's abilities or Szeth's death and recovery. Chances are his attempt to wrest the mantle of leadership of all of humanity will founder on the Skybreakers and/or Ghostbloods and/ Team Kholin. His biggest protection was anonymity and the assumption of benignity. Now with what Szeth knows about him (and by extension Nalan) the mask will slip at some point. He cannot protect himself against Szeth or Kaladin bent on assassinating him.

it's not so much that his path might not be viable- it might be. It's just the interlocking complexity of the multiple paths to protect humanity means that its not one path that's the solution. It's the series of steps that maximise all the potential paths. The Almighty has put Dalinar on the 'choose a champion' path. Wit has his own agenda but is nonetheless overtly supporting this play. So is Vasher. it would be interesting to know if Mr T's play is backed by Cultivation, implicitly.

Which in-world art or scene from Words of Radiance would you like to see depicted? I was re-reading Words of Radiance (yes, already) and I came across a Shallan sketch labelled "Jasnah's burden"...that would be my top pick.

Herald spren, wow, these almost have to exist after multiple millennia of thought and devotion.  Can't remember any odd spren who would fit though, unless Cusicesh, who takes something from the people watching them when he records their faces, such as what Shallan does when she takes a memory of them, is a Spren with a capital S of Shallash.  Don't see the ocean connection though.

 

In principle there should also be Cultivation spren (Nightwatcher?) and Odium Spren. Since we know the Unmade are Spren, maybe they are the spren of the Parshendi equivalent of the Heralds?

 

That is unless the Stormfather only came into independent existence after Tanavast's death.  Oh to be able to ask Brandon to clarify....

That's an interesting theory. I've been wondering what, exactly, "Son of Honor" is referring too, since we hear it in two contexts. (1) The Stormfather calling Kaladin "Son of Honor." (2) Amaram, in his letter to Restares, talking about "our burden as the Sons of Honor." Whether it refers to literal ancestry or some sort of innate power, there's definitely something going on here. (And every time Amaram shows up, I swear he becomes a bigger threat. haha)

 

 

I keep expecting everyone to have some secret in their parentage. Shallan's mother, Kaladin's parents/ancestors (back to the Son of Honor thing)... Though if anyone is the child of a Herald or someone equally important, my money's on Adolin and Renarin. Zahel's words from chapter 20 really stuck in my head:

 

The obvious implication is that Dalinar is powerful, but I don't think he's that powerful. We're probably going to have to wait a long time to find out about Dalinar's wife, but whoever she is, she's important.

 

Dalinar's wife is dead, at least according to our current in-world knowledge. 

Incidentally if the Almighty had a spren because he was an idea in the cognitive realm, surely the Heralds (who were equally worshipped in Vorinism) had a spren as well?

I had originally thought when reading WOK that Kaladin might be a descendant of Tanavast ("Child of Honor" literally).

 

I don't think that's possible now, but I think we still need an explanation for his innate facility with the spear in childhood which we see in the flashback chapters. Stormlight or surgebinding can't really account for that. And we know from Mistborn that genetic abilities do play a large part in Brandon's world. Maybe Kaladin is a descendant of one of the Heralds?

Brandon could just be teasing us with this suggestion of Palah from chapter 33 in WoK when Shallan sees a woman walking though the Palanaeum, "Lit that way -- with her figure hidden but the light streaming between the shelves -- it looked as if one of the Heralds themselves were walking through the stacks."

 

I doubt it. I think you are on to something. I had originally thought the Heralds would stay distant from each other, but Jezrien, Nalan and (we assume) Kalak were all in the same place on the same night.  Perhaps the Heralds do cluster together. 

Answering Grinachu about motivation, the Heralds may want to pursue right goals in ways familiar to them, but they are broken in shame and self-hate.  They migrate to arenas and jobs that fit them before, trying to do something meaningful, but they can't bring themselves to take up their old work as before, they despise themselves too much.  And so I think you're on to something, Odium would do all he could to fuel that self hate and in their broken actions and rationalizations, doing the opposite of their purpose, they worsen their self-hate in a downward spiral.

 

If so, we should look for the remaining Heralds in places of familiarity to their nature.

 

I predict Ishar will be in the Vorin church or an ardent because piety is an attribute of his. Battar is wise. so maybe Battar is at the Kharbanthian library and/or was behind the fake history in Words of Radiance? One of themes of Mistborn is undoubtedly the unreliability of in-world sources of knowledge. I think the contemporary knowledge of the Recreance is wrong, and those Knights who gave up plate and shard were actually the last Knights to follow their vows. 

Let me ask my earlier question again. Why have so many societies continued to co-exist? The Skybreakers should have destroyed the Envisagers over the course of centuries.