RedBlue

Hi! No probs on the late submission - it’s good to not be the only one this week! So, as engagement goes, I’m feeling so-so overall. I’m interested in the plot line about N, the flower, and what is up with that. I’m less interested in An and her politicking. I’m not terribly interested in E, or W’s wallowing in past relationship gloom. It feels like backstory stuff with no direct relevance to the actual plot (which I assume is about N and the flower). As for the characters - I find N kind of endearing, in an awkward sort of way. I can see why his weirdness might make some readers wary of him, but for me, he comes off as eccentric in a good way. I want to find out more about him, and especially about why he’s interested in W. Where did he get the impression that she’s nice? Does he really just think she’s cute, or is there something else going on? Those are the sort of questions that make me want to read on. I am also interested in the mom and am.’s relationship. We don’t see much of it but the breadcrumbs you drop are making me want to know more. And the bad news: if An is supposed to be likeable, there is a problem. The politicking comes across as manipulative. And the fact that she behaves so rudely to E and N makes me dislike her. If I understood both sides of this conflict and felt that everyone had valid points and grievances, I could sympathise with all of them. But I don’t have a handle on this beef, and what I do understand sounds kind of petty. That means I’m going to pick a side, and that pushes An further into the unsympathetic zone. And if I dislike An, then that makes me wonder why W is hanging out with her. If W is friends with someone I don’t like, that makes me like W less. Also - the dialogue feels off in places. It doesn’t sound like teenagers talking naturally. If it were just N I’d put it down to his weirdness, but W and An have this too. As I go: pg1 - ‘Seeing him uninterested in me quashes the tiny part of me that still loved him’ - is that how it works? There are loads of people who love people who don’t love them back. Unless what W liked about E was that he liked her? pg1 - ‘It’s sweet of you to pretend that you care’ - I think you should specify that she’s talking about W’s interest in the books. For a second I thought the mom was implying that W is only pretending to care about the mom! pg 3/4 - The flower situation is definitely strange, but given that it doesn’t appear threatening, it feels like W and An are overreacting a bit. I mean - it’s a weird boy and a weird flower. What are they so worried about? pg4 - School gets out at 2:30?! Is that normal in America? pg4 - ‘I’m not going in blind’ - yeah she is. I think she means she’s not going in alone. pg4 - ‘tutoring period early ... few minutes early’ repetition of ‘early’ pg5 - I’m wondering why, if W is so focused on the flower mystery, she doesn’t just ask N about it point blank. pg 7/8 - And I’m wondering, if W dislikes group politics/dynamics so much while An loves them, why are these two friends? The hook at the end of the chapter doesn’t work well for me. I’m interested in N and the flower and the plot, not An’s social group. So I’m not super hyped to read about W spending time on the coast with characters I don’t know. I’m kind of hoping that the point of the coast trip is to find out more about B and what went down between her and N. If that’s where this is headed, you might want to signpost it, because that’s the only reason I can think of to care about the coast trip.

Hello, everyone! This is the first time I’ve shown my work to people for feedback (other than family members who don’t count), so I really have no idea how good or bad this is. So, to introduce what I’m submitting here: it’s the opening of a novel aimed at middle grade to YA (fantasy, with spooky vibes). I know that’s aimed younger than anyone in this group probably is, but hey, any feedback is valuable. The novel doesn’t have chapters. It’s divided into three parts, but no chapters. I will be dividing it into chunks for the purposes of submitting it, but keep in mind that the ‘chapters’ are not presented as being chapters. No content warnings for this first bit. Later parts of the story will have some violence, but it will be fairly PG levels. Specific questions I have for you are: 1) What do you make of the MC? 2) And the setting? 3) Does it make you want to read on? If not, what do you think the issue is? If so, what specifically is drawing you in? Thanks!

Am I the only one with a slot for Monday? Or have I gone and posted in the wrong place / at the wrong time? *looks around awkwardly*

I have two ideas about this. One, Hoid likes the sound of his own voice. A lot. And we don’t know what specifically went down between him and Rayse, but clearly it’s personal for Hoid. He wanted to meet face to face, for his own personal satisfaction. Two, Hoid wanted to check that Rayse doesn’t have any nasty surprises up his sleeve. He’s testing Rayse to see if he says or does anything suspicious. If it were still Rayse, this might have worked - the guy is not the smartest and can be manipulated into revealing too much. If Hoid notices that his Breaths have been tampered with and that tips him off, then it still worked, to an extent.

Good theory, makes sense. Especially if he thinks that making new Heralds will allow the original Heralds to retire. Ishar could be thinking this is his ticket out of immortality.

I would argue that Harmony is in a unique situation that isn’t directly comparable to the other Shards. Firstly, having two separate Intents that pull in different directions is a very different beast from one singular Intent that overrides all other considerations. Maybe two more compatible Shards could merge their Intents and become like a regular Shard but with twice the power, but Harmony is dealing with two distinct Intents, neither of which takes precedent over the other. Secondly, Sazed is very new as a Vessel (by Shard timescales). If Sazed had been around as Harmony for ten thousand years, things might be different. We don’t know, because it’s a new thing that hasn’t been done before.

I would like a slot for Monday, please.

It would be great to see Szeth interact with the other main characters in a more meaningful way in book 5, so I hope the squad is going to meet up. But I think the dynamics there would be a bit different. Any reasonable person would be wary around Szeth, and I don’t see why Shallan and Adolin would be exceptions. Kaladin, on the other hand, has a history of warming up to people despite having compelling reasons not to. And he also has an interest in mental health issues, which Szeth very obviously has. If any of the main characters start to sympathise with Szeth and try to figure out what’s up with him, Kaladin is my number one suspect. As for BAM - yeah, I don’t see why she shouldn’t be in Shinovar. That would be a good way to make plotlines merge, from a narrative perspective.

Yeah, I agree that the scene with Shallan implies that the strong personal connection/understanding is the crucial factor there. And if the other Unmade work in the same way, then it makes perfect sense that you need someone who struggles with gluttony problems to deal with Ashertmarn. Maybe, if Aesudan had made better choices, she could have done it. Applying this logic to BAM, maybe her whole deal is about connections and Bondsmithy stuff? And that’s why you need a Bondsmith to trap her? Or it could be that the situation was completely different and other things we don’t know about were going on. Who knows.

I generally don’t put much stock in extrapolating from TWOK Prime, partly because it was written over a decade ago and a lot has been changed about the characters, plot and setting since. And also because, if it spoiled future Stormlight books, it probably wouldn’t be publicly available.

The idea of A trying to scrape his way out, realise it’s not working, and then using the scraping to improvise a weapon is a good starting point. You just need to put A in a situation where he can use the ship in a clever way to escape believably. When I read your chapter, I kind of assumed that the religion was actual Catholicism. Using the title ‘Saint’ is very coded Catholic, and using the name Gab. is coded Christian when in conjunction with religious elements, and I don’t know enough about medieval Catholic beliefs to pick out differences. If you’re going for building your own religion then there’s nothing wrong with pulling aspects from real-world Christianity, but you should probably make it more clear in the text that this is a fantasy religion. Otherwise it could get confusing/misleading. For example, you could use some other word instead of ‘Saint’, maybe have a character demonstrate or reference an aspect of religion that is clearly unique to your setting. Especially if the religion is going to be important later.

This is a great comparison I hadn’t thought of. Any being with a singular, unchanging, uncompromising Intent will run into the Paperclip Maximiser problem. Or, “Huh? Why shouldn’t I give a chainsaw to this shady looking guy? Oh, he’s ripping everything up? Well, that’s what chainsaws are for!”

That was my previous assumption - to trap an Unmade, find someone with personal baggage related to the Unmade’s abilities, hand them a big gemstone, and let them have a heart-to-heart with it. This isn’t what I would call an ability unique to Bondsmiths by a long shot, but it sounds reasonable that Bondsmithy Connection shenanigans might be able to substitute for someone who feels an organic connection to the Unmade.

That is a good point. So if the Radiants are going to reverse whatever happened with BAM, presumably they would need a Bondsmith - or maybe Ishar specifically - to do it.

Even if Ishar was not Melishi, I could see it being Ishar who conceived of and taught Melishi how to implement the "different strategem" (the imprisonment of BAM) related to the unique abilities of Bondsmiths and the very nature of the Heralds (clearly a reference to Connection). We already know that his pals Nale and Kalak were there for that. I might just be being dense, but this seems to raise a question: is trapping an Unmade in a gemstone a Bondsmith-only ability? The only Unmade we have seen be imprisoned that way was the Thrill, and obviously Dalinar did that. But it was strongly implied that Shallan could have imprisoned the Midnight Mother if she had been prepared and knew what she was doing (that’s why the Midnight Mother was afraid). No Bondsmith required. But that quote from Words of Radiance says that this ‘different stratagem’ (imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram) is ‘related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths’, which implies that it is Bondsmith-only. So ... is the in-world Words of Radiance wrong? Are we misunderstanding it? Was the case with Shallan and the Midnight Mother special? Was the case with Melishi and Ba-Ado-Mishram special? What is going on here? So, yeah, Ishar is shady as all get-out is the only concrete takeaway here

Hi! I know I’m a bit late to the party, but this setting strikes me as very cool, and ‘Arthurian legend but steampunk’ is a great pitch. And I’m not even that into steampunk. I did have a few questions as I read about what exactly their tech level is (what is up with the guns shattering wrists? Why are people with airships still using swords?) but you are probably aware of that. In terms of plot, this chapter did have the feel of ‘let’s go on a side quest so we can flesh out the world and characters before the plot starts for real’. I didn’t mind that, though, because the things being set up seem interesting. C is obviously troubled by stuff from his past, but ready to get on with things. He seems to be struggling with a mild case of culture shock, but he’s a decent enough guy that I’m sure he’ll manage. I think I would be more invested in his character if there were a bit more specificity about what past stuff he’s troubled by, but generally, I like him. S is supposed to be cheerful - I assume that came across more strongly in the first chapter, because here, the most memorable conversation with her is her fretting about being accidentally rude to a foreigner. So she comes off as considerate, if a bit awkward and maybe insecure. If those are layers being added to a cheerful and bubbly character, then I’d say it’s working. The other characters are still broad sketches. Sar seems like an archetypical tough guy (note that he and S both have two-syllable names starting with S. If Sar is going to stick around, you might want to change that.) The captain’s line at the end was cool. I’m not any kind of Arthurian Legend buff, but from my general knowledge understanding of the stories, the knights team up and go on a quest for a macguffin, right? And questing stuff would mesh well with airships, so if I were going to guess, I’d say that’s where this is headed. Not sure what the macguffin will be. Assume S will be joining the party. Not sure who else will be coming along. As I read: pg1 - ‘this was the first time C was actually seeing’ => the first time C had actually seen? pg2 - ‘I was at one point’ you could clarify this by writing ‘I was a knight at one point’. I had to scroll back to check what question he was answering here. pg3 - S’s ‘Come on?’ is unnecessary and confuses the flow when C responds to her previous comment. pg4 - ‘I think they’ll can see us’ grammar pg5 - ‘The mining town was abandoned, but not abandoned because of ruin’ The second use of ‘abandoned’ is redundant. Also, are ANY towns abandoned because of ruin? Isn’t it generally the case that ruin happens because of abandonment? pg6 - ‘alright,” => ‘alright’,” pg8 - just a random thought, but this secret closet room that you have to shut yourself into sounds like a great way to lay a sneaky trap for adventurers pg8/9 - C’s weird blue glow he’s so intent on hiding is very mysterious. I am curious! pg10 - ‘capitol city’ should be ‘capital city’. Capitols are buildings. Capitals are cities. Also, namedropping Camelot here makes for some good intrigue pg11 - this noble lady from An. sounds very suspect. I reckon something’s going on pg13 - If the map room is such a treasure trove, why not take as many as they can carry? The maps will go to waste otherwise, right? pg15 - ‘too injures to take place in a battle’ => take part? pg16 - ‘for a few second’ typo About S’s dialect - are you going for Scottish? Because conventionally, ‘cannot’ => ‘cannae’ (one word), and ‘do not’ => ‘dinnae’. Obviously you can choose not to follow conventions, or invent your own fantasy dialect, but be aware that it looks weird as is (to me, at least).

This is so much improved from last time, so good job on that front! The tension is much better. It does feel like Au is in actual danger, and the fact that he has to struggle against his situation makes it more compelling. Au’s characterisation is showing through now. He feels like a fairly standard dark-ish fantasy boy hero type, but he does read like a character with a personality, agency, and internal thoughts and feelings. It helps that he starts the chapter with suffering. Suffering is good The wallowing he does on page 1, and then getting to see him actively fighting against it, works. On page 4, having other things he would be doing if he weren’t trapped was a nice touch. The dialogue is fine, in my opinion. It’s not naturalistic, but it’s the kind of stylised where it sounds intentional rather than stilted. Other people’s mileage may vary on that, though. I have a few logic nitpicks I’ll get into below, but my biggest single issue with the plot in this chapter was that Au manages to escape from a bunch of guards by literally just running away. Those guards have one job. Heavy armour shouldn’t slow them down THAT much over a short distance. (Otherwise, not all of them would wear it.) It just seems like a plan that shouldn’t be able to work, on the face of it. As I go: pg1 - ‘watery bowls of ... cup of water’ two waters in one sentence. Maybe use a synonym for ‘watery’? pg2 - Au’s antagonising of the jailer comes off a bit silly. It’s obvious that he’ll get himself hurt. Is the moment of defiance worth the pain and potential injury? It’s good to have his behaviour change over the course of the chapter, but his attitude here could be toned down and it would make more sense. The jailer is the most tropey part of the revised chapter. He needs to make Au suffer, which he’s doing, but the way he goes about it and his attitude are textbook ‘sadistic prison guard’ stuff. If you can think of a more original or surprising way for this character to be a monster, it would make his sections more interesting. pg3 - ‘much dirtier than he would have expected’ - it might help if I had some reference for how dirty that is. And initially, I assumed the dirt was soil. Going over it again, that doesn’t make sense. Is the dirt supposed to be worn away stone? I don’t think stone works like that? pg4 - setting question: is it normal for the Count to keep prisoners for extended periods of time? What for? Is the Count’s dungeon part of normal law enforcement in the area? Ignore me if this was explained in chapter 1, but explaining exactly what this place is could help flesh out the setting. pg5 - Au says ‘hello, Jailer’. Does he call the guy ‘Jailer’? After being there for several weeks? pg6 - Does Au connect the blue light magic thing to the spell that the Count cast on the parents? Should he? Also, the way it is described makes it sound like Au resists quite easily. Is this because Au is special, or did the parents submit willingly? If this is a mystery to be revealed later then don’t worry about it, but if these are not questions I’m supposed to have, that scene needs to be clarified. pg8 - If the guards bind Au’s ankles, do they plan to carry him? How is he walking? pg10 - ‘Au span violently’ span => spun pg10/11 - are Au’s hands still bound for all of this? Also, I don’t think you can cut through hempen rope with a sharpened spoon that quickly or easily.

So, my feedback is going to be limited here, because I’m not familiar with these characters or this setting! There were just a couple of things I picked out. p1 ‘She clicked her tongue, trying to sound sympathetic’ - I’m not sure what a sympathetic tongue click sounds like. She seems like she has some difficulty communicating, though, so maybe that’s the point. p3 ‘in bold, san serif font’ - are these space opera people using the same fonts that we use? Or is this a ‘translation’ (as in, they use different words for everything, but this font is roughly the equivalent of san serif for us)? p10 ‘We have about a minute of oxygen left’ - when I read that, my brain immediately went ‘but didn’t they just explain why they’re not worried about suffocating?’ I know the situation is deteriorating rapidly, but it might flow better if you make it clear that the backup systems rely on cel. when it comes up on page 7. I like the dialogue throughout - I felt there was a lot of character in it, even if I don’t know these three. I got a sense of generally competent people who are wayyyyy out of their wheelhouse. I also like S’s despair and desperation throughout.

I remembered this WOB that describes the Oathgates as moving people at light speed, and that’s how their teleportation functions. It’s not been in the books yet though, so the mechanics might change. But assuming this remains canon, you’re right that the Oathgates transition between the Physical and Cognitive Realm. I doubt they go near the Spiritual Realm, though - at least, not that we have seen. The Spiritual Realm is too weird.

I think, given the context, this was not about singer culture generally, but about Listener culture specifically over the last few decades before the story’s current timeline. Venli and Eshonai don’t know any more than we do about ancient Singers or the events surrounding the Last Legion. WoR revealed that Listeners HAVE a culture beyond being warlike thugs as most Alethi perceive them. They have form changes and social norms surrounding them. They have internal politics. They have scholars trying to discover new forms. Everything they know is passed down through oral histories. They had their own compelling reasons for killing Gavilar. If all that stuff hadn’t been in previous books, presumably Venli and/or Eshonai’s flashbacks would have revolved around those reveals. But because Brandon decided (for good reasons, IMO) to humanise the Listeners sooner, RoW’s flashbacks became more like vignettes that fill in some more detail about Listener society and the sisters’ lives.

Venli and Eshonai’s dynamic was what hooked me about these flashbacks, even when they were kind of extraneous in terms of plot. Eshonai’s boldness and charisma while being an outsider to her own people, Venli’s quiet resentment and dangerous hunger for attention and respect. The painful clash of those personalities. It all struck a chord. And Venli’s arc during the current timeline contrasts with the usual Stormlight main characters. She’s no Eshonai, and she never can be her sister. She’s not a great person, or a good one. She wants to be, but she doesn’t want to put the work in. She’s only there because she survived by chance and more important people found her situation useful. But she did survive, and with some effort and some help, she can become a better version of herself. I hope we get to see Venli’s arc progress further. I don’t think it’s on the cards for her to become the brilliant scholar she pretended to be - scholarship and cleverness were never her strengths, and there’s so much else to be done to rebuild Listener society - and I doubt it will ever come easy for her. I really want to see where she ends up.

I have an undergrad science degree and I can confirm this is accurate. Botany is not my field but sometimes science doesn’t get around to hashing out technical details of a phenomenon, especially if there isn’t a compelling profit motive. But as you say, getting this to feel realistic to most readers is important. To be fair, otherwise reasonable people can react very irrationally after a breakup initiated by the other person. And W is a teenager, not a mature adult. I don’t think it’s unrealistic to have her initial reaction be angry, especially if she calms down later.

The archaic writing style is not inherently a problem in my opinion, as long as it’s consistent. It’s the out-of-his-depth blank slate boy hero motivated by imperilled family members that feels tropey. The creepy vampire manor, the evil Count and the dungeon escape are also familiar tropes. I’m not saying these elements of the story should be taken out - all stories rely on tropes to some extent - but having some new, fresh idea or spin would make the whole thing more compelling. I think this is a good idea. Forcing Au to solve his own problems would likely take what worked about G and give it to Au instead. I think the readability could be improved with some changes to the punctuation in places. For example, the Count’s dialogue on pg2 ‘Oh please, you’re in no position to make demands.’ could be ‘Oh, please. You’re in no position to make demands.’ I won’t pick out every instance, because it’s a style thing more than a technical thing. But improving the punctuation would definitely help the flow. If the speaker continues to the next paragraph uninterrupted, the finished paragraph loses the “ that would close it out. But the next paragraph starts with the initial “. And if the speaker is continuing after a dialogue tag as in pg8, you need all the “. You’re very welcome

I have a theory about this (which I do realise is a bit ‘out there’). I think that Surgebinding is a joint magic system for both Honor and Cultivation. That’s why Adhesion and Regrowth were the only Surges to still work when the Fused were using the suppression fabrial in Urithiru - Adhesion is purely of Honor, and Regrowth is purely of Cultivation. The other Surges are a mixture of Honor and Cultivation, which made them more vulnerable to suppression. Then the weird new stuff going on with Renarin is adding Odium’s power into the mix, which is why the Surges are expressed differently. That’s the Voidbinging.

This is my theory for Windrunners’ 5th Ideal - accepting protection. I think this addresses Kaladin’s biggest remaining hang-up. He’s been ready to heroically sacrifice himself since WoK. He’s been helping other people learn to protect themselves since WoK. He’s been comfortable with his judgement about when to kill and when not to kill since the end of WoR. He made the decision to take better care of himself emotionally in RoW. I doubt that the 5th Ideal would swerve into pacifism territory because, ultimately, the Windrunners are soldiers. Fighting is what they’re for. What remains for Kaladin to do? Become okay with accepting help from others.