therunner

That is a good question, soil in principle is not truly 'solid' it can be quite loose so that might play a factor. Or the Thunderclast works more like deepest ones, and they could simply go down until they reach stone and then animate that and dig themselves out. If anything they are mutual counter, as both use Fortune and both would interfere with one another. If corrupted Truthwatcher is enough of a problem that it counters futuresight of a Shard, even compounder won't overcome that. They have never been shown to form from anything other than a stone, and in fact it would not make much sense to form from soil (as it does not hold shape well). To capture the fused soul you would need fully aluminum cage the size of the fused/EDIT: thunderclast fused, which is about the same as size of Thunderclast, so at least 30 feet tall. That is not a cage that you can easily hide to trap someone in. I am also wondering whether you even read responses to you, as you have a habit of ignoring questions of others, even when they only ask you make a concrete statement instead of vague one. I am still curious as to why you think Radiant vs Fullborn is a toss up, despite also thinking some twinborn would be able to kill Radiant of any Oath. And I am still wondering which parts of my previous replies were 'desperate rant' as you stated.

How would you anchor the gems to the highstorm? It moves across the continent very fast.

The Bridge Four is very different from Zepellin, so long as fabrials are undamaged, it remains in the air. But I do agree that it would not be very useful, other than as transport (at least the way it is build now). So per the second video the main issue of the shield is that it is far too heavy, which is non-issue with spren-shield, which would be no more heavy than the spren blade. The second issue is that the use had no hand free for fighting, which again is not issue if the goal of shield is to just protect user to close distance before changing the shield into spren. The third issue is still present, but since Radiant with gravitation can easily move at ~30 meters per second, they are not that easy to hit from the side. Windrunners lashings can have longer firing ranges (it is just a question of infusing enough stormlight), and can easily fly outside of range of guns (as was discussed on the last page), between entering range of Scadrian guns and landing in the middle of them would be about ~6 seconds to hit them and since they would be in the air, the flanks are not that exposed. And they could lash stones to soften up Scadrian positions first.

City states that are not on the verge of being united, but instead on the verge of being splintered. You have it completely backwards, Elendel Basin was united in the past, and is becoming increasingly splintered as other large cities dislike the level of political and economical control Elendel has, they are becoming more splintered not less. Rosharan can steal and use medallions, but Scadrians have nothing to use to fuel Rosharan fabrials (they have not stormlight, and no way to harness mists that we know of), so those would be useless to them. And why are spren seceding, but not some Scadrians? 10-15 years from RoW, we shall see. But Roshar still has soulcasting, which is more flexible process and at the beginning faster than anything Scadrial has (because they need to mine, refine, transport, manufacture, and transport again, but Roshar can skip 4 of those steps). Scadrial is in worse position to produce their fabrials than Roshar is, Scadrian fabrials require godmetal to work, Rosharan do not. And Scadrial can try to make Rosharan fabrials all they like, without spren around and without stormlight they wont work. Scadrial has no way to produce anti-light at the moment, and they would first need to get their hands on stormlight/voidlight. And Singers are attuned to hearing Tones and Rhythms. Machine guns that are at best accurate to ~500 meters when properly set up (and firing vertically upwards is not exactly easy), and you would still need dozens of them set up, and again spren shield. And yes flack needs timing, Scadrial has no way to make it contact dependent and timing would be problematic against Radiants with gravitation as they are far faster, maneuverable and smaller than any plane. They have spren shields (impenetrable), and potentially plate or half-shard armor; the spren shield protect them directly from the front and partially from the sides (with sides being more exposed the lower they are, but they are also much faster at that point). They are far from having no cover. Reverse lashing will actually work well against bullets (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3523 the wob has a typo i think, as full lashing on bullet in flight makes no sense), I already made this argument, if the bullet is affected for ~0.05 second, powerful reverse lashing (like the one that ripped of Pursuers head, which was ~100 *7m/s^2) would give the bullet speed of ~35m/s in that direction, and it would move in that direction by 0.88 meters, enough to make someone miss. The new direction of bullet would be vector sum of original velocity and the one from reverse lashing. So yeah, Reverse lashing would curve bullet paths by meters or more, and since it imparts velocity, they would move in the new direction. As for physical, either imbue stone and drop it (per Raboniel or Leshwi radiants in past could create homing projectiles, which would require this), or hold large boulder ahead of you as you are dropping and reverse lash it. They could easily go higher than range of Scadrian guns, and if this is first encounter Scadrial definitely does not have aluminum bullets (why would they waste such expansive metal?), so they easily heal. And it is realistic that each Radiant could have a few hundreds' of kg worth of rock 2 km high, they already routinely lash people 10's of km, so they can do it easily with Stormlight they usually have, every direction is the same for lashing. And for accuracy, again there used to be a way to use Surges to create homing projectiles, not that much accuracy needed (it is probably some application of Reverse Lashing, but it might require some other Radiant). And rock lashed down 10 times would be moving at nearly sonic speed, that would be quite an impact (~80 kg of TNT if my math is right). So are Scadrians encamped with machine guns and artillery, or are they scattered? Pick one, because hitting scattered force would be much easier for Radiants (fewer opponents with guns to shield from). Do they? And even if they truly are as effective as you are assuming, they had the luxury of seeing and studying conflicts of other, something Scadrial could not do. And there clearly are no military forces on NoScad at least, the only one building ships with guns (i.e. military equipment) is one nobleman along with Research institute, not military (and every is laughing at him). It took Roshar a year to go from proof-of-concept to a flying platform, and they don't have magic that makes objects lighter (which would simplify engineering). Era 2 is 10-15 years from this point. And Scadrian airships are not that much different, they just have propellers and are built out of metal. And of course Roshar has Radiants, i.e. in plate equivalent of fighter jets. The healing cannot be stopped by a bullet, but only by aluminum bullet, important distinction. Same for instant death (unless someone remove the bullet of course, then they heal back if done fast enough (~10s of seconds?)). Ad hominem will get you nowhere. There are mists (gaseous investiture, like Stormlight) hence there could be anti-mists, not so difficult extrapolation (and far more realistic then your assumptions on A- and F-aluminum). Odium can be freed if needed, so I am not sure why he would be trapped regardless? Why could Dalinar not free him, it is within his power, and when going to war why not? I already addressed how they could key suppresor field (kidnapping and torture of A-pewter mistings, and F-gold ferrings, or field experiments) but I guess you did not bother read it. So they could get them up and running quite fast I think. And really what parts of my post were quote ' rant because it seemed as if your own bias and desperation fueled it '? The part were I pointed out that each side in Rosharan war is larger then even united Scadrial? The part were I pointed out that Thunderclasts can appear anywhere, they just need to dig (or have stone soulcast for them)? The part were I asked why does Scadrial have reinforced aluminum boxes the size of Thunderclasts in every camp (and how can they move them)? The part were I pointed out Coalition could get Odium to join them by releasing him under the condition that he join the war? The part were I pointed out that there are 300 windrunners, and Teft swore an 4th oath sooner than Kal? The part were I pointed out that 3rd Oath Windrunner can kill Mistborn in open battle (per Brandon and at that point we have only seen 3rd oath windrunner, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e1432), and asked you which metalborn is stronger than mistborn, if they can kill Radiants? The part were I pointed out that since Bondsmiths manipulate Connection, the can use that to remove Connection between user and metalmind? The part were I pointed out that nothing about A-aluminum or F-aluminum suggests they can pick and choose what to keep and what to remove, and that since Hemalurgy relies on stapling things onto soul, it would get removed wholesale? Which of these is the 'biased and desperate rant'? I just want to know for future reference, so that I can avoid being perceived like that. I think I said this like 30 pages back already, and you will find that everyone agrees that if there is anything like Kryptonian in Cosmere, it is Fullborn. And for curiosity, how would Radiant/Fused beat Fullborn (outside of those two scenarios I outlined)? Because honestly, I don't understand how you can on one hand say that many metalborn (some not even compounders) could beat Radiant, but then turn around and claim that Radiant vs Fullborn is toss up, because Fullborn is far stronger than any other metalborn. It isn't, Vin pushes/pulls on it in WoA I think. Only some alloys of aluminum are immune to steel pushes. Actually, Brandon never said that any thickness cannot be cut, in fact it is still point of contention (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/115/#e1442). It definitely stops the magical cutting part, but it might get cut if it is thin enough (I mean aluminum foil does not have that much strength). Hemalurgy require knowledge and Intent, and Wax had neither.

Interesting question, the part about the curse will be a bit complicated as the curse does not seem to particularly match the boon (at least for those given by Nightwatcher). I would probably ask for either healthy confidence or better memory, for the curse I would expect either some physical ailment (I stop being able to write properly for example) or sensory one (everything tastes bad).

The tank here is Radiant in plate. No it has not, NoScad is still mostly composed of independent city states that resent Elendel for their control and oversight, and want to break free (hmm, maybe someone could bribe them...) and SoScad is composed of multiple tribes that are sometimes fighting with one another. And of course SoScad and NoScad have next to no contact, and per Brandon will only become important again in Era 3 (so we have at least ~30-50 years before they establish any sort of permanent contact). It would be nice if you imposed criteria you have changed on Scadrial as well, because unless you assume unity Scadrial has no medallions, any knowledge of hemalurgy to speak of, and Terris people still control most of Ferrings so they would probably prohibit them from taking part in war (see how they react to Wax and he is grandson of effectively their leader). I.e. under your new assumptions Scadrial looses most of the Ferrings (hence also compounders and F-steel), all medallions, most of knowledge of Hemalurgy (because only Set and Kandra seem to know, and neither would share) and Scadrian army would be much smaller (because not all city states would be willing to join war and a lot of people not living in the city also). Roshar is currently composed of two major sides (Coalition, Odium's forces) and few smaller ones (Shin, some smaller independent states,independent Singers, unaligned spren (but those are mostly leaning towards alliance)), and the two major ones are each larger than even unified Scadrial (which is of course not united under your assumptions). And you could quickly convince Odium to join the war against Scadrial, just get him an oath to release him under the condition that he will lend his forces to fight against Scadrial, Odium would jump at this chance. Rhetorical question, do you know what planet looks like? Bedrock is somewhere between 100 to 500 feet deep on average, so on planet with soil comparable to earth Thunderclast would need to dig themselves out (which they could, it would just take minute or two), or someone can soulcast ground into stone and use that. What flack? Flack explodes at set height before hand, and Radiant can change height by 50 meters under two seconds, more than enough to avoid it. And what thousands of bullets? To drop 500 meters (your stated number on effective range of rifle shooting) would take them ~6 seconds, in that time most rifle man could take two shots at best (and since they would have to adjust their aiming by ~45-30 degrees they would most likely fail to take the second shot), and they would need to be less then 250 meters away from intended drop point of Radiant. So unless you have at least 500 riflemen ready inside a circle with radius 250 meters, you will not even squeeze out one thousand shots. Of course you also assume That there is one Radiant dropping not multiple. That all the bullets and all the shrapnel is aluminum, metal that is expansive enough that nobleman cannot easily make weapons out of it. Because if the bullets and shrapnel are not aluminum, reverse lashing simply makes them hit off target. That Radiant start attack before disabling at least some weapons of Scadrial, be it by soulcasting from CR, or by dropping few 100 kg rocks first from 2-3 km high or by having Thunderclast attack at similar time. And you accuse others of bias? And Scadrial has practiced no war for three centuries, so they have no tactics or strategy to speak of, and no idea how to use what little weapons they have truly effectively. Sun Tzu's army also did not have flying siege platforms with swords that cut through anything like butter, and people that can heal severed spines, lost arms, or bullet/arrows to the head. The only thing nicroburst would affect would be voidlight (if they have any), it would look nothing like light/anti-light reaction. It would look more like having duralumiin pewter, i.e. you would not notice much, only that your voidlight is gone and maybe some emotional effect? But their soul would remain unaffected. And is Scadrial keeping hyper mobile aluminum cages the size of Thunderclast on hand in every camp? Or to be more specified reinforced ones so that the rock monster cannot smash out? We have seen so few because Odium's forces seem to coming with youngers/weakers first, and Thunderclasts are among the oldest ones. Even then we have seen two within first few months of Desolation starting, and they are plentiful enough to give them as escort to single spren (per Dalinar's vision). You can easily bribe Odium to join war against Scadrial, just promise to release him if he does so and to help him splinter/take up another Shard. Ta-da, Coalition and Odium's forces are now joined Scadrial's situation is far from resolved (even just Elendel basin politics issues) and SoScad and NoScad are far from anything even remotely resembling alliance. So either stop saying we cannot assume united Roshar, or stop assuming united Scadrial. To put it simply, use the same standards for Roshar and for Scadrial. Stop accusing other of bias, when you yourself are using different standard for Roshar and Scadrial (and said so yourself), which is quite literally bias. Yes, metal is bridge to power of Preservation/Harmony, which is exactly the same thing as mists. I.e. stab someone burning metals or actively tapping/storing with anit-mists dagger and you will kill them or severely harm them. There are multiple third oath Windrunners ready and Kaladin fears they are not swearing the fourth out of respect for him, Teft was in process of swearing fourth ideal when his spren was killed (and so before Kaladin) and there are much more than 300 radiants in the coalition forces, there are just 300 Windrunners. And in the past there were literally hundreds of Radiants in plate in each order, it is the fifth Oath that is very rare. Except that Scadrial has no tools to kill Spren or Fused, only Roshar does. 3rd Oath Windrunner would kill Mistborn in open battle, so 4th Oath one would slap Mistborn in open battle. How many metalborn are stronger than mistborn? Full feruchemists, F-steel ferrings with good weapons, and what else? Bondsmiths manipulate Connection not bonds, and burning metal creates connection to spiritual realm (so this can be manipulated) and Ferrings need connection to their metalminds (so this can be taken away). They could also connect them to ground, so any power that tries to affect Mistings/Ferrings body would try to affect ground as well and quickly burn out (like what Ishar did). If you are really arguing we cannot assume united Roshar, then you cannot assume that NoScad will have access to medallions. Even if it worked like this (and I really don't think Nicrosil will work like this), you could disable them with suppressor just like anyone else. Although trapping Fullborn like that would still be risky proposition If Aluminum twin erases the hole, they also remove their hemalurgic powers (as they are 'stapled' on the soul, i.e. they are foreign investiture, the very thing A-aluminum removes). So no, they could not become H-fullborn without downsides (and this also ignores the fact that beyond 4 spikes you start seeing physical and spiritual deformations, so you are no longer human) since neither A- nor F-aluminum lets you pick and choose what to keep and what the power removes. There is not that much to think about, Fullborn wins against pretty much any Radiant. They heal just as well, can be just as strong as Radiant in plate, they don't tire, they don't need to eat or drink, they have compounded Chromium (which will be useful no matter what exactly it does) and they have F-steel. They will kill Radiant in less than a second. The only chance someone from Roshar would have is to trick them into entering suppresor field, and then attack them with everything they have (or soulcast them into a cage and let them die there). If it is not natural fullborn, you could also try to use soulcasting fueled by Bondsmith from CR to remove either medallions or spikes or metalminds, but you would still need to keep the Fullborn in one place long enough.

We have no clue what nicrosil compounding does, and for medallions the nicrosil portion works like Copper (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e11247) and Compounding Copper might not do much (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3327). We also don't know if you can store abilities granted by Medallions into different metalminds, as those are technically foreign to the Body/Soul. They would be nothing like Revan, as Revan was fighting against forces he first intentionally depleted, and whose battle tactics he devised along with top general that seceded with him. Sure they will think fast and come to conclusions with great speed, but they need information to work off, so they would need to see tactics/strategies and powers first, they are not psychic. For rioting soldiers -> suppressors, so Rosharan's are shielded and Scadrial forces can be randomly disrupted by lashing suppresors. Also Radiants are shielded thanks to being heavily Invested + Plate, *-form Singers are also most likely a bit more resistant since they are already under similar effect, and Fused are heavily invested Cognitive Shadows. But mental manipulation is a nice idea, so let's unleash Thrill on unprepared Scadrians, and maybe add Heart of Revel on their command center. Also why are you bringing up other fictional universes with completely different rules? Of course each side would try to play to their strengths and would prepare their strategies accordingly. This however means that Rosharans and their Radiants would try to force encounters in close quarters, and since they have much better mobility they would be able to do so more often than not. Scadrial has access to exactly one perpendicularity on their planet, and to only two on Roshar and both of those are not easily accessible (mountain peak and underwater; either at Origin, or in the middle of super-hurricane) and so would really complicate invasion. Radiants with gravitation can easily fly 2km high (out of range of anything Scadrial has available at this time), and drop down under 10 seconds under six lashings. Since they cancel normal gravity when lashing, any direction is as easy to travel into so the height is not a problem. And since Kal (at 3rd Oath) flew few thousands km as fast as he could using only the light he could carry, I think they are safe on that front. So these Radiant can appear in the sky over the Scadrian camp, and drop down faster than anyone could shoot them (and they can form their spren into shields, and since they are right on top of them, they would shield most of their body). Radiants with Transportation can literally appear in the middle of camp, again forcing close quarters battle, which favours Radiants a lot. (and they could carry some other Radiants with them). Stonewards could probably form tunnels and lead the rest to the camp, again popping up in the middle of the camp. Thunderclasts can form wherever they want, so they would simply form, again, in the middle of Scadrian camp, behind the cannons (or you know, right under the cannons, disabling them just by appearing). Only Scadrian cannons can have range of thousands of yards, their rifles have at best range of ~1000 meters (and that is effective range which assumes every other shot misses), and revolvers have effective range of tens of meters only, at best 50. Also Scadrial has absolutely no fabrials that can serve as ability enhancers, unless you mean medallions, but even those are not exactly making someone much more deadly from range. Wax's skills are completely and utterly legendary, in Era 3 they will have comic books of him for christ sake. To claim that anyone could train to be that good is utterly ridiculous. He had one in a generation talent, maybe even rarer, you will never see armies with his accuracy, only individuals maybe. And the only rapid-fire weapons Scadrial has are few relatively new machine guns, and those are comparable to gatling guns, which were accurate to somewhere between 180 and 800 meters (and again this is effective range, which assumes every other shot misses). These are distances Radiant can cover in seconds with lashings. There are maybe a 100 total Metalborn alive that could challenge 3rd Oath Radiant, and a few dozen at best that could do that to 4th Oath Radiant, mostly good F-steel twins. Killed Metalborn is lost forever, killed Radiant gets replaced relatively fast, especially in the middle of war. It might snap some, but since Sazed changed it, most snap so easily that nearly everyone that can has already snapped. Thunderclasts would not do Scadrians the favor of appearing away from their camp, they would simply form right under. So no cannons or artillery (unless you had a system of camps where each one kept some cannons pointed at the others, to which I say there are more than one thunderclast), explosives would wipe out your own forces and would only temporarily disable Thunderclast (until it formed a new body). Those hammers are probably not ordinary hammers but Shard hammers, wielded by plated individuals, so nothing Scadrial could do on their own (unless there were multiple F-pewter ferring that survived the initial appearance). Also the stone body is only effectively a puppet, the Thunderclast itself is the Fused soul within, so the only thing that might hurt it are Leechers, but there are two complications Chromium burns fast, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e881) and Cognitive Shadows are heavily invested, and Fused even more so. Chromium works like larkin do, and larkin don't kill Fused or Cognitive Shadows, hence leecher might take away their Voidlight, but the Fused animating the stone would remain unharmed. What effect would have that on the stone body is a good question, but to leech away all the Voidlight would probably take at least at least a dozen seconds of sustained contact, which would be detrimental to health of a Leecher. Not to mention that Thunderclasts would most likely not attack alone, add in a couple of Lightweaver to take advantage of the chaos and it would get real fun.

Just a few unadressed points Why are guns deadlier in hands of metalborn than in hands of others? Sure coinshots can push on bullets, or specialized partially aluminum bullets, and tin-eyes and thugs might be marginally better shots, but those are quantitative changes at best, not qualitative ones. The only metalborn with powers suited to R&D are F-zinc (but those will spend equal time useless for R&D due to storing), F-copper helps (but not much more than a good large library with smart filling system, only maybe by tens of minutes of time), and maybe those with A-bronze as the only Investiture sensors Scadrial has. Which metalborn are deadly all on their own? Outside of those with F-steel and Thug/Soulbearer, you always mentioned that the metalborn has a gun and it was key to their victory (or you assumed that somehow they can touch Radiant without A-pewter, or F-steel and survive). Covert tactics are name of the game for Metalborn, because in direct combat they are simply not good enough outside of few exceptions. Of course very little metalborn (not Mistborn though) have any abilities that would help with stealth, and any Lightweaver is better at it then they are (but they need Stormlight which limits them somewhat). No they could not. Where are all these legendary marksmen (as Wax is already considered a living legends before the books) in Era 2? Because there are exactly zero of them. No they are not, regular arrows or swords are sufficient against Thugs, so they are nowhere near as tough as armor is. Half-shards are completely fine against rifles. Just strap them on as breastplate and you have discount bullet-proof vest. Painrials while currently relatively short-ranged, can also be used to create soldiers that feel little pain, sort of like pewter helps with ignoring pain. Also you have completely ignored suppressors, which might simply shut down any metalborn or Metallic arts device in range. And you could throw those (or lash those). For attractor/repulsor fabrials, of course I cannot list how exactly they are made, it is a fictional science but i can guess: We know that attractor fabrials use iron, repelers presumably use steel. They created attractors that can attract 1) Water (even from air, so even trace amounts), 2) Smoke, 3) Weights on Wandersail, (so presumably some kind of metal or stone). Since the first two are definite examples of Ten Essences and the third one is most likely as well, I would assume you can create Fabrial that attracts/repels any of the Ten Essences, and metal is explicitly one of those (outside of Aluminum of course). The gem required would then most likely be corresponding polestone, i.e. for metal you would use amethyst. We don't know which spren are the other attractors using, so I cannot really say, it might easily be kind of spren that has not yet been named. Even if your soldiers would use guns as metalminds, only a few of them could, as making guns out of anything but steel/iron is not good idea, you could plate them in other metal however. But either way, most metalminds are not even full enough to resist pushes or pulls, why would they resist this better?

Actually no, while both are penetrating projectiles, the way they achieve penetration is different. Bullets are generally dome-shaped and punch through a target, pushing the material and tissue away; arrowheads are sharpened with a tip and primarily cut the target material. This means that while kevlar and such are good at stopping bullets (good tensile strength), they can be penetrated with sharp enough arrows (as the material can be cut relatively easily). Against plate bullets are more effective, no questions there. And any kickback to the wearer is due to transmission of momentum, which for small arms and arrows is comparable (rifle ammo would have ~2x the momentum of large and fast arrow), so of course resistance of plate plays little role (and I never claimed it did). My whole point was that since arrow hitting plate did not even nudge plate, the plate had to have been quite heavy. Also impact powers grows quadratically (or with a third power if we assume 'contact time' during which energy transfers shortens appropriately), not exponentially.

I never said the difference is not huge, only that the momenta are actually comparable, which is what was relevant for my point. I was mistaken on the kinetic energy and thank you for correction, I was mostly concerned with the 'barrel' speed, which would help arrow more, but even then the arrow would still have ~10x less kinetic energy even in favorable conditions.

In that case you are arguing that guns are deadly, not that Metalborn are. That would make gun only a temporary advantage (until Roshar has comparable weaponry), and one that is only useful when stocked with aluminum ammo. Jasnah is an utter monster on battlefield, see RoW, and that is when she is holding back. Also, most Metalborn simply are not as good a shot as Wax is, so on hand saying most Radiants are not as good as Kaladin, but on the other hand assuming all Metalborn are expert marksmen like Wax is disingenuous. Plate would stop shrapnel easily, Scadrial does not have .50 cal machine guns nor recoil-less rifles. Also, aluminum is still too expansive to even make guns out of, so they will not be able to fill every weapon they have with aluminum shrapnel or ammo. This ignores various forms of Singers, which use only lesser spren, which are far more numerous, and those could be very deadly (Stormform, Warform). Most of those Metalborn however are only Misting and Ferrings (and around 1/3 has powers that are not suited to combat, so are effectively regular human), Scadrial would have low hundreds of natural Twinborn at best. Except for that WoB you are not taking into account, but I do, which tells us otherwise. Hazekiller rounds are in no way comparable to high velocity armor piercing slugs, none of them have any such properties. The ones with ceramic tips are used against coinshots, as they cannot push on the ceramic. Those against pewterarms are simply larger and filled with more gunpowder, but not armor piercing in any way, shape or form. So yes, we do need to project much more development before they have anything approaching armor piercing rounds. (Sidenote: The fact that anti-coinshot rounds use ceramic and not aluminum, and that aluminum is not in anti-Thug shots, also shows just how expansive aluminum is in Era 2). Modern weapons can shoot up to ~1200 meters (9mm guns) or ~3000 meters (high powered rifles or machine guns), but the bullet stops being effective in far lower heights (roughly a halfway, or 1/3 way up), so even then you could no kill anyone higher than ~1500 meters, and that is late 20th century weapons. Scadrial is a century behind in this, and if we are being generous their most powerful rifles could kill someone ~800 meters high in the air, if shot straight up. Radiant under Lashing can cover this distance under 8 seconds under 4 lashings, so they would be exposed to fire for a relatively short amount of time + they would be moving at high speeds (and they are a small target). Soulcast from CR, no range needed and no cost to Radiants. Odium spren 'made' to detect surgebinding could not detect Lightweaving and Seekers cannot detect pulses muffled by Coppercloud (or those of Well), hence Lightweaving might be 'quiet' enough to escape detection. F-tin/A-bronze twinborn would have a better shot at this. If this is your measure for usefulness in combat, then 2nd Oath Elsecaller is the most useful combat oriented magic user, they can camp out in CR and soulcast people away (or just Soulcast air around people into oil+flame, or prison). They could take out any Mistborn, Feruchemist, Twinborn and even a Fullborn (if they caught him when not tapping or burning, as then they would not be more invested than a person). Half-shards are literally designed as military equipment and painrials are shown multiple times to be used in combat. Also, I already did show them in my previous post, but once again: Half-shard shield - smaller discount shardplate of comparable durability, to help against gunfire Painrial - shown to cripple everyone with pain, attach to Investiture conductive net or find a way to make it ranged and you have something resembling granade, or you can just use it in melee combat Supperssor fabrials - to negate magic of opposing forces denying them Metalborn abilities, disabling their ettmetal weapons and craft in certain radius Attractor fabrial attached to large piece of iron/steel (some chosen metal) set to a timer (they have watches) - lash this in the direction of Scadrial forces and the attractor fabrial will draw in the same substance, pulling away guns/ammo etc. temporarily taking away weapons. Conjoiner can be used to create a basic gun, just modify the mechanism powering Kaladin's gauntlet. He won't make more Fused because he does not want to invest himself on Roshar even more than he already has. But he is still willing to make exceptions, and since this thread is Scadrian vs Rosharan magic, we can include his making Fused even when only as a response against Harmony making more Metalborn. I never compared arrows to bullets, I only mentioned arrows as an example of how Plate seems to be very heavy (as the momentum of the arrow did not even nudge it). Also, while penetration mechanism of arrow and a bullet differ (cutting vs pushing) their momenta are actually comparable, as typical arrow is ~4x as heavy as a bullet, but moves ~1/4 of the speed, giving comparable momenta. Of course in kinetic energy bullet will win roughly a 4x.

I will answer the first question, for the second one...RoW thread has been more than enough for me I think. I would rather be Knight Radiant, specifically Elsecaller or Edgedancer, mostly because of the spren (it would be nice to have a close friend around pretty much all the time), and the orders 1) Elsecaller, because Soulcasting is awesome (I wouldn't have to cook with some practice! ...and also lots of gold) + travelling to CR. 2) Edgedancer, because Progression could be useful in gardening and sliding around is fun.

OK, understood. I think I recall Wax thinking about what you are saying, but I do not think it is evidence against "tapping large amounts always incurs penalty", since he has no experience doing so. I looked through all the Mistborn Ars Arcana, and Khriss never talks about mechanics of tapping faster than storing, or losses due to tapping large amounts. I am aware of this WoB, and I do not think it necessarily invalidates the other one, as it is both older and does not address the issue directly. We do not know how exactly they will develop, and if we allow speculative future developments to Scadrial we should give the same allowance to Roshar for their fabrial tech. They can get above trivially, and spren shield would protect them from anything short of other shards/nightblood. And since they would be dropping only 10 seconds or less, they would be extremely difficult to hit. Those with Surge of Transportation do, if they have enough Stormlight to do it. Getting into Cognitive is relatively easy, getting out is a bit more difficult (or requires more knowledge) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13196), but it is possible. Also Scadrial does not have access to Cognitive or any ability to travel back and forth, so they would not have soldiers there. Since when does Scadrial have land mines? And when would they have time to prepare the field with them? Artillery would be problematic, but they can be destroyed easily (Lashed boulder/Soulcasting) and Scadrial cannot replace them that easily. Only bronze not copper, but no combination of Twinborn you proposed had either anyway. And Lightweaving is 'quiet' as those alerter spren do not notice it, so it might be difficult to detect even with bronze. And why are you assuming Scadrial had time to prepare the battlefield? Rule of Cool, as a lot of protagonists in books don't get 'small' injuries at all. And authorial intent is still what it is, F-iron does not impart damage resistance. So you agree with me that all these are useless in direct fight with Radiant? Also F-bronze compounder would not be much better as assassin than a normal person, they just don't have to sleep, and you can easily detect them with basic lifesense. F-bendalloy only need no food and water, they still get sick/wounded/need items to sabotage etc, it is useful but not game-changingly so. And all of the above Compounders are 1 in 10-20 million rare, so not soldiers but only a soldier. Syl can become a lot of things, so long as they are not too large, and they will retain the same material properties as Shardblade. Lesser spren do not seem capable of forming weapons. I don't think even when Adolin fights in plate at end of WoR is the ground described as shaking. Nevertheless arrows bounce off her, implying both damage resistance of plate and that plate is sufficiently heavy that the collision effectively imparts no momentum to Jasnah. Nice analysis @The Technovore, a few points others did not mention I think. I think you are neglecting more general tools Roshar could bring to bear, namely various fabrials. With alerters you could make traps that trigger only when someone starts using magic, with suppresors you could negate ettmetal cubes and Metallic arts within certain radius, half-shards would be good as 'basic' bullet-proof vests (or augmenter fabrials that strengthen materials), painrials for both first aid and as a weapon, guided 'missiles' using attractor fabrials, etc. But not all of those Allomancers would be good in combat themselves, and not all allomantic powers are suited for combat (for example A-Aluminum, A-gold, A-duralumin) this cuts the numbers by at least 18.75 % . Also I think spren are now more populous then they were at time of Recreance, they could breed undisturbed for over 2000 years. And I think most Mistings are comparable to Singer forms, and those can be easily created in tens-to-hundreds of thousands, so Roshar could counter those numbers I think. If Harmony starts mass snapping, Odium can still create new Fused and as long as Singers breed fast enough, Roshar has the army, but Scadrial does not replenish their forces fast enough.

Good point. Outside of Marasi/Wax not noticing if the amount of metal was sufficiently small (as others mentioned), or F-gold detecting it as poison (which I personally doubt) I would offer potential way out: Stores from mists and metals are indistinguishable (as neither Elend, nor Vin can tell the difference). Hence, when you have metals inside you at the same time as mists, the stores intermingle and you burn both. Potential issue with this is that you would get inconsistent power depending on what you are burning. However, since burning metals pull power from Spiritual realm, maybe they could reach towards closer source of power when available? I.e. if you burn regular metal while having mists inside, the metal will not be fueled from Spiritual but form the Mist directly, so you would not perceive any difference.

Wax says no such thing, or which moment are you talking about? When holding BoM he thinks that "Metals, minds, men, all the same substance", but he makes no comment on light. And again, you cannot just create Investiture, per author. I would assume not, as it is different kind of investiture, not a literal blend. Or it is a function of the godmetal, and leecher could never achieve such a feat alone. Khriss never comments on such a thing, and neither does Wax. Sazed might have, but it would be nice of you to provide some quotes instead of your word. Also since neither of the three are compounders, they would never encounter scenario when they can store large amounts of attribute at once, i.e. they would never notice the difference. The WoB in question (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) is everything but vague, open, or generic; the question was " Does the loss during the withdrawal of large amounts of attribute depend on the rate of original storage? " this is a very specific question what is vague about it? Not light, investiture. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9288) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5/#e3233) You mean like the suppressors I was talking about on multiple occasions here, on this very page for example? No, only A-aluminum does that, and only when burned by allomancer. Aluminum does not disrupt Investiture, it blocks its flow and it cannot be acted upon it by Invested processes. You keep mixing up what Aluminum does within Metallic arts (i.e. magical system) with properties of Aluminum within Cosmere in general. Aluminum is useless against withering unless you are Allomancer (even Ferring would have trouble, because his power does not remove investiture). Not necessarily, you can trap people in situations where they cannot win. And if you literally cannot get what you need to win, you will still lose, F-Chromium is not wish granting genie. Man in powered armor (Brandon's words) with shapeshifting indestructible gun/shield, moving tens of meters in seconds is at a disadvantage against a guy with a gun? The guy with gun has range, that is it, and the gun has to have aluminum bullets, otherwise it is far weaker against Radiants. And you neglect ways Radiant can circumvent range disadvantage. Radiant with gravitation could drop from above faster than Metalborn could react (they could fall 1 km in 10 seconds under 4 lashings) and they can prepare spren into a shield so that when they are falling there is nothing to hit. Radiant with Transportation would not need to traverse battleground, they would simply pop out of Cognitive right on top of Metalborn, completely negating any range advantage. Radiants with Abrasion would have to approach on foot, but could still use spren as shield, and any non-aluminum sharpnel/ammunition would slide right off. Radiants with Illumination could throw up Illusions and make hidden approach ( Lightweavers could then soulcast weapons away, or plug barrels with soulcasted metal) Stonewards and Bondsmiths would have greatest trouble approaching a guy with gun, but Stonewards could simply make a fortification and then move it with themselves (as they have Cohesion and Tension) and Bondsmiths are not the most combat oriented (although who know what they could do with Connection manipulation) And Scadrial currently does not have particularly large variety of ammo or guns, they have mostly revolvers, rifles and some rudimentary machine guns, and only one gunsmith makes specialized ammo. He gains no resistance, author himself said so and Wax himself said so. He withstands his increased mass, because Feruchemy in general protects against its own effects, but that is it. As you say yourself, author himself states that tapping weight does not increase damage resistance. As you are the one who says it would make a difference in combat, maybe you can come up with reasons why. But of the bat these would be definitely useless in direct combat F-Tin, F-copper, F-Bronze, F-Cadmium, F-bendalloy, F-Electrum Except that godmetal of Shards is never shown as being flexible, and in fact is only ever shown as unyielding. On size of the whip, I think there was some WoB on limits of size for spren-things, but I cannot find it at the moment How could Division act to create thrust without proper propellant? Division just breaks chemical bonds, without good fuel you are not going to be flying around. And ramjets only work if you are already moving at around ~170m/s, so that would not work at all. (also Division would not let you change pressure, that would be Adhesion) As far as we know yes it has to be, after all if Jasnah could have made her plate lighter she would have (especially at the end of battle), even if she made it half as heavy it would be useful. They got their mass from all the Investiture that manifested, just like sprenblade has much more mass than a regular form of spren would suggest.

Hello, I am currently on my re-read of Mistborn and after finishing HoA I had an idea, hopefully not one that was already dissected as not possible Simply put, Bands of Mourning are just unsealed Nicrosil mind filled with Mists (possibly compounded), and nothing else. All the other metals on BoM are there simply to confuse anyone who would try to replicate them (always another secret after all) and divert their attention to a wrong direction , as creating Medallions granting just 3 powers is exceedingly difficult. The reasoning is as follows: Mists can fuel Allomancy (as seen in TFA and HoA), and when doing so the Allomancer feels as if the metals were burning inside them (HoA, pg. 642). In other words, if you do not know what is happening, you can mistake mists for ingesting and using all metals (and notably, Mistborn use only the metals they know, not all that could be used, like chromium). Mists can also fuel Feruchemy (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40/#e712). This one was not seen on-screen, and is only possible according to WoB. I would assume that it would 'feel' similar to what is happening in Allomancy, i.e. you would feel stores of all the attributes and could tap them at will. Both Marasi and Wax when using BoM start exuding Mists, the only other instance of exuding Mists is Vin when drawing a lot of Mists inside her (HoA, pg. 646). No other metalborn, Compounder or otherwise, ever exhibited that. We also know that Mists are gaseous Investiture in vein of Stormlight, and human body is imperfect container of such, so if you draw too much and are not using it, it leaks. Finally compare these quotes from Vin on being fueled by Mists with these from Marasi on burning metals when using BoM I cannot help by feel that the descriptions are very similar to one another, almost suggestively so. If true, it would be in opinion quite nice trick Kelsier pulled, as anyone would assume you need to be Fullborn to create BoM and so would assume he is one, when in fact he would only need F-nicrosil and a bit of Mists to start Compounding process. Kelsier likes to pretend he is more powerful than he actually is, and if possible does so, so I think it would be in-character for him. Possible counterargument could be that Marasi starts burning metals only after ingesting them, not before. However since Intent and knowledge matters (i.e. you need to know what you are doing to do it) it is possible that without 'jumpstarting' it with ingested metals she would not realize it is possible to do it without metals. She already had experience with unsealed metalminds, specifically F-iron ones, so she would know how to tap. Additionally, it would require Kelsier (or someone with F-nicrosil) to draw upon Mists and store them, which is also not exactly everyday occurrence. So what do you all think? Does this make sense?

You mean like Stormlight is not made up of light, nor does it act like it? I mean, you cannot store light inside a gem for example, nor can you breathe it in. True, but my point was that Soulcasting without gems is possible even when perpendicularity is closed, and this points still stands. A large one. Disrupts implies that if you have a pool of Stormlight fueling reverse lashing or illusion and insert piece of Aluminum, the effect will get corrupted/stopped somehow. Blocking merely means that the effect will go on as usual, just that it will not reach through aluminum. For example, lead blocks X-rays it does not disrupt them. Except that Fortune is not just straight up luck. And it might work differently than we would expect from the name (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33/#e2754), but you will ignore this WoB because it is paraphrased. Either way, we have literally no information on what it would do so we will never reach a good conclusion. I think Cr-compounders have a shot at killing Radiant, but they would need good weapons and it is not guaranteed, so they do it 6/10 on average (averaged across all Oaths). Except for that one WoB per which Feruchemy has losses whenever you tap large amount of attribute and storing speed has no effect. However, you ignore it due to being paraphrased and I do not, so we will have to agree to disagree on that. In the post you are replying to I already said it is on Coppermind (under Ettmetal), so I do not know what more you want. However LewsTherinTelescope provided a quote to BoM which explicitly says so. Also while nicrosil stores or enhances Investiture, it does so only when actively used by metalborn. On its own it does neither (barring some modifying effect in fabrial) I have been only assuming speed and maneuverability granted by single lashing, which we have seen. Distance traveled under constant acceleration is d=1/2 * a * t^2, which you can invert to get time it takes to travel distance d under constant acceleration a, t = sqrt(2d/a). For d=50m and a=7 m/s^2 you will get t=3,77 s. So I slightly overstated my case, Radiant with Gravitation can move 50 meters under 4 seconds, and not 3 as I was saying. Under three lashings it would be close to 50 meters at 2 seconds. Effective range of even modern grenade launchers is ~350 meters when trying to hit teams of people, and only 150 meters when trying to hit vehicles. Radiant with Gravitation is mobile enough (they can dismiss/redirect lashing at will, to quickly move in different directions) and fast enough to get in range without being hit by grenade, as they can cover 350 meters in around 10 seconds (under Single Lashing). And Era 2 Scadrial does not have grenade launchers of such ranges anyway. The velocity of subsonic bullet in mph is off, it is only 400 mph (you forgot to convert from feet per hour to mph). Radiant could form shield before starting his charge and before any shot was taken, or even after a shot was taken if it did not kill them. I also don't think they could dodge bullets, but dodging grenades is a different matter. On that matter, after a few encounters with guns they could take the approach that it is good to advance in a random zig-zagging motion to lower the chance of being hit. (but I think here we are going into way too much detail with the speculation). Scadrial currently has neither explosive nor armor piercing rounds as far as I know (and Shardshield would still easily resist them), and rapid fire weapon is a problem only if it catches Radiant unaware. Suppressor fabrial don't need to be attuned to individual Surges, hence they do not need to be attuned to individual metals. Its all Harmonies investiture, one setting should be enough (or two if Preservation and Ruin are still sufficiently distinct). To learn how, they could capture a couple of Mistings and Ferrings and experiment on them, A-pewter Misting and F-gold Ferrings would be easiest to experiment on, as they will both use their powers unconsciously if wounded sufficiently (and yikes, this is so unethical). Or they could try various settings and experiment in battles, plus wide band jammer exists, so they could try to suppreser everything that is not Surgebindin (but this might not be possible, or feasible). Neither Wax nor Sazed are Compounders, and I do not think they ever comment on effect of storing speed at tapping. If they do I apologize, but please provide quotes where they do so. While Coppermind says " when a Feruchemist is tapping an attribute at the same rate it was stored, they are able to get out exactly what they put in ", the WoB they source for this does not actually say that, although it might imply it. In my opinion the newer WoB (2012 vs 2008), even when paraphrased is a better source for this. And a question (I have kinda lost track of why are we discussing this point)., would the fact that they can tap losslessly actually change dynamics of combat with Radiant? F-steel will still burn them up when moving too fast (and I think even Steel Ferrings would move fast enough), F-Iron will still not make them resistant to damage, F-pewter will make them pile of muscles that can no longer move, etc. It really does not leave much room, Brandon himself (no paraphrasing or anything) says that F-Iron does not increase damage resistance, period. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40/#e692) Arcanum Unbounded actually does not say that lifeform converts sunlight to Investiture, in fact it says this i.e. the investiture comes from the sky, most likely from sunlight (the intro is not fully clear on this, it says that for years they assumed it but that it is not as simple, however that might refer to the fact that they assumed that only Dayside is invested, not to the source of Investiture itself). It then goes on to explain that this organism reacts to water, and that Sand Masters use water of their bodies to forge brief Connection to it to gain power from Spiritual Realm. Shards are made of godmetal, and so far that has been pretty unyielding, not very flexible. Making it from small linked parts would also not work, as the object must be one whole thing, not multiple small ones. I am not sure how the 'Shard jet boots' should work? While Division does break molecular bonds, they do not have anything like rocket fuel to get enough thrust from that, so I do not think they could do that. Shard wings, or shard flight stabilizers are an interesting idea, anyone under lashing would find it useful.

I understood well enough, I just pointed out that we do see Jasnah soulcast without gems in RoW, where there is no perpendicularity around. Also for most of battle at the end of Oathbringer the perpendicularity is already closed and Radiants are only using light in infused spheres. Perpendicularity is opened only for Chapter 119, at is closed the same chapter, fighting takes place afterwards. But it is true that everyone is infused with Stormlight to greater degree than usual. Aluminum itself disrupts bubble, not a person burning aluminum. And nowhere is it stated that Aluminum disrupts surges, it only cannot be affected by them (and potentially they cannot affect things through it). Stronger in sense of physical force, yes. But not stronger in sense of 'can I push/pull on trace metals/invested objects', they still cannot do that. Or they will see future kind of like Renarin when tapping a lot, or like Hoid (who uses Fortune) will 'know' they should be somewhere, but outside of that they will not get much. We simply don't know. Until they burn through their stores (if A-powers are storable), afterwards they will be just an ordinary Thug. They would not fire much more rapidly, they would still be limited by the weapon as most people are, and Radiant can still form Spren into a shield to protect themselves from most damage. In close range they are still inferior to Radiant in plate who has better armor, better healing, (strength depends on how much is Thug/Soulbearer tapping) and comparable speed (or Thug is better if tapping enough), and of course Shardblade. The biggest advantage they would have is speed, because they are most of the time weaker, all of the time squishier, all of the time have worse healing. All of this sums to the simple fact that Thug/Soulbearer cannot afford to get hit once, but Radiant still can. All that is assuming Nicrosil is also ranged when primed, and timing is a tricky thing when your target shifts directions faster they you can move (and can move 50 m away from assumed direction under 3 seconds). Again, primer cubes use ettmetal (a godmetal), so to draw conclusions on Misting powers from them can be misleading. Also, breathing in Stormlight when hurt has been shown to be partly instinctual, like burning A-pewter when hurt. So if the fall did not kill them outright, they could survive. So Cadmium primed cubes, not nicrosil cubes? That could work, provided of course Radiant does not have suppresor fabrial on them. And since we are apparently allowing fabrials to Scadrians, Rosharans should have them also. Fabrials are comparable true, but Shards are literally inseparable from Radiant, but you can still take a gun from anyone. In any case if you equate guns to fabrials, then we should equip Radiants with suppresor fabrials for the purpose of our discussion, negating all ettmetal cubes and all Metallic Arts within ~10-15 meters of Radiant. How is the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) contradictory? There is no other source on the topic as far as I am aware, i.e. there is nothing it contradicts. If you have some other source on this topic, please share it instead of saying there is contradiction. I do look at the dates of WoBs, and generally try to pick the recent ones over the older ones if there are multiple on the topic. While Coppermind is updated, it is not updated as fast as you assume + it still uses WoBs/books as it source. While you may not think so, the primer cubes are in fact made of ettmetal, if you try to find primer cube on Coppermind it redirects you to Ettmetal. There is most likely something else involved, but at the time we have no idea what it is, and the ettmetal is still crucial to its workings (i.e. no ettmetal, no primer cube). In addition, ettmetal machinery has been shown to create effects that are not possible with Metallic Arts (airship lowering its mass), so it clearly allows effects not possible just with Metallic Arts. You are not arbiter of what is or is not objective. Then again, neither am I. I also do not assume someone is objective because they agree with me (or vice versa). Generally I start by assuming others are arguing/debating in good faith (i.e. strive to be as objective as possible), and then adjust based on their behavior. Part of that is acknowledging when being wrong, other part is being willing to share arguments that would weaken your previous position if you think of them. It also helps if other parties explain their reasoning, because then I can at least trace a point where we disagree to one/few statements. LIght has energy and momentum, and thanks to momentum light sail can work. Light still has no mass. Shallan's illusions had mass because they are made of Stormlight (which then created the illusion) + Shallan can soulcast which can also partly explain it. Since physical objects can be infused with Investiture (see metalminds, spikes, Awakened objects, gems, parts of fabrials, etc.), it is easy to imagine that Autonomy invests photons of Taldain's dayside sun, as light is still a physical thing. While energy, mass and investiture can be converted among one another in Cosmere, that does not mean that hunk of steel is the same thing as gamma radiation, or that water vapor are pure investiture. They can be converted into one another, and compared to some extent, but they are still different things.

EDIT: Beaten by a Frustration by 2 minutes, damn it This is literally an opinion and not a fact. Whether or not can he be redeemed is very subjective, depending on ones ethics. In world, it seems a lot of Alethi would not even see a need to redeem him. In eyes of others he probably still have work to do but is at least on the right track now (Mink I think would be of this opinion). Dalinar might have become Odium's champion without Cultivation's intervention, and might not have. The chance is higher he would have, but it would be his choice, just like not joining Odium was his choice. No, Cultivation took only memories and what she calls "compulsion" (possibly his addiction to alcohol?). In addition, she says that what she took will grow back, and by end of Oathbringer this has happened, so now Dalinar has everything she took from him back. She literally says she will not make him the man he could be, nor will she give him aptitude, strength or will to do so -> i.e. the journey (to become a better man) was still ahead of him, it was just easier for him to walk it now. The only thing we know for sure she took are memories and some nebulous 'compulsion', all else is conjecture without much evidence. And to call what happened to him 'unmaking' is quite hyperbolic. What he did in Rathalas was partly driven by Thrill as he was consumed by it for hours on his trip back into camp, and still in its throes when burning Rathalas (he says it would not let him sleep). In fact even before Dalinar learns that Evi is in city he pushes the Thrill back and thinks they went too far (showing that Thrill did have some influence on his decision making). He still did it, he was not mind controlled into doing so, but being fueled by Thrill for hours after nearly dying most likely has some effects (as we know by testimony of Jah Kaved soldiers, Thrill almost makes you want to fight on). Outside of that he is no more a monster than any other Alethi nobleman, in fact he seems to be much better than they even before (he does not seem actively prejudiced against dark-eyes soldiers for example). I would actually even say Dalinar has not changed that much, he was honorable in Alethi sense (giving a chance to surrender, recruiting even among foes), loyal (to Gavilar mainly, and his family), with a bit more compassion than usual for Alethi (his sparing of Tanalan which was even before he met Evi) and later with some respect for non-Alethi virtues (albeit suppressed, but he does come to think of himself as unworthy of Evi even before being pruned by Cultivation). Sure on a battlefield he was an absolute monster in terms of skill and sheer brutality, but at the same time he was driven by Thrill as other Alethi are, he was just much better than others. After reading Way of Kings he just had a better role model (in Nohadon) of what kind of man he could be, kernels of which were already present (compassion, mercy, honor closer to modern standards, etc). Thanks to Cultivation's intervention he had much easier time of growing towards that ideal (as he no longer had to combat PTSD and alcoholism), but it was him who decided what kind of man he wants to be. I cannot speak for everyone, but I think it is because Dalinar never betrays people on his 'side'? Amaram betrayed Kaladin, his subordinate, and later joins Odium. Moash betrayed his oath and his friend Kaladin, in trying to kill Elkohar (not saying he did not have grounds to do so, he most certainly did), and then went further and killed Teft. Both of them betrayed people that should be their allies, in pursuit of personal goals, and that is something people generally frown upon. Dalinar commuted horrible crime in Rathalas, but I guess because in-group/out-group thinking is quite ingrained it does not feel as bad as betraying an ally? So while I think that Dalinar committed worse crimes, I would feel I can trust him to some extent because of this, whereas with Amaram and Moash I would not feel able to trust them.

First of all, Shades are from Threnody, not Nalthis. Second, since it is the only Invested ailment we have seen, of course it is most devastating. Third, he said that both would work well, only that A-Aluminum is probably safer. And while that Savant power sounds cool, remember that Savantism also carries severe drawbacks, so that is something to remember. In RoW she had no such advantage, and yet she was still easily soulcasting. Since Venli affected entire hallway, you do not need to be particularly near to use Cohesion to trap feet. And you did not address Reverse lashing, Lashing on clothes, Soulcasting of air/ground, or division of ground/clothing. Why would aluminum gnat disrupt a Surge? It is not like he is made of aluminum, and no aluminum gnats do not create 'bubbles' around themselves, what evidence you have for that? Even your usual source (Coppermind) says nothing of the sort. Steel-Compounder I agree with. However, Iron-Compounder does not become Allomantically stronger (they just have better 'ballast'), nor are they much stronger (they just have more weight behind the hit, and we see Sazed having difficulty moving when tapping a lot of Weight) and they are slower, less dexterous, less mobile and less damage resistant than Radiant, so Radiant could easily dodge them and close the distance to kill them. Chromium compounder I cannot really say if I agree, all we get on F-Chromium are RAFOs, and Fortune in Cosmere is not straight up luck. I do lean in the direction that they might pull it off, if they had proper weapons. Thug/Soulberearer I already addressed, and I think that even with storing A-pewter they would not have such an easy time with Radiants in Plate and above, though if they used their bursts of strenght and speed well they could pull it off. Sparker/Slider, you cannot shoot out of time bubbles, they effectively randomize trajectory. F-zinc gives you a bit of mental speed (it is not compounded, so you cannot do what Wax did in BoM), but it does not give you information you do not have, so you cannot predict how it would get deflected. How would they booby trap a higher Oath level, and how are their powers helping? A well designed trap could kill almost anyone (even Fullborn), so I am not seeing how this is argument for this particular Twinborn. Cadmium misting is trapped in the bubble with the Radiant, so they die almost immediately (because they are a normal person otherwise). And the grenade affect the Misting as well, so that would be weird (sped up bubbles that slows down time?). And what about Elsecallers and Willshapers that can drop in from CR? Nicrosil twin, so Nicrosil would super-charge a Surge, but would it super-charge pre-existing Surge as well? And how would you make sure grenades explodes near Radiant? And any Stormlight in gems would still remain on their person even after this hit, so they could easily heal up. And how would this be useful against, well any order without Gravitation? And how is F-nicrosil helping them? It is interesting that out of 3 non-compounders you mention, two need modern weaponry to deal with Radiant. That to me suggests that their powers are simply lacking in comparison (and guns are called the great equalizer for a reason), so any advantage due to guns is only temporary. Of course, using tools we should equip Radiants with painrial nets and suppresor fabrials at the very least, maybe even half-shard shields. I will then assume you do not have any new application of Surges hidden somewhere. Well you might ignore such WoBs, but you will find most do not. So I again disagree with your claim, and here is the evidence (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803). And frankly, I do not see how you could paraphrase such a clear question into something with different meaning (especially when the person writing the report is the person that asked the question). Using ettmetal tech as an example of what can a person do with their powers is flawed assumption, as there is godmetal involved. Every single WoB implies that contact is necessary for Leechers. Soulcasting is based around CR and as we see on Roshar Cognitive Aspect of an item is not necessarily in the same place as in PR, so that easily explains why soulcasting works from distance. Which WoBs do not support my position? Please give examples when you make statements, it is otherwise a bit difficult to argue such points. The WoB with tapping attribute is pretty clear (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803), the only reason you disregard it is because it is paraphrased. There is no other information on this topic (loss when tapping and rate of storage), so there is no other canonical information to consider, source is a person quoting themselves (and 'No' is not difficult to remember) and what context is there for this WoB? Other than you not wanting to give up your idea that Compounders can ignore a fundamental limitation of Feruchemy? I was under the impression that people in the thread are striving for at least some measure of objectivity in their statements, and are genuinely interested in how the conflict would go down, i.e. even though they might think evidence favours one side they are not playing favourites. If I think you make a good point and the evidence supports it, I have no problem acknowledging that (at least I try to). But when you make statements that have no evidence, outright conflict with books and WoBs or you make up elaborate scenarios of how someone would win, I do not feel the need to treat such statements as true, or relevant. Light has no mass, that is one of its defining qualities (otherwise it would not move at speed of light). So that is a difference between light and Stormlight. And Taldain's sun is invested, that is why the light (photons) are invested there. So again no neither right frequency nor the right pulse of light will kill Radiants.

I was under the impression that Radiants are still gem limited for soulcasting at least to some extent, see this WoB ( https://wob.coppermind.net/events/149/#e2784). Although this another WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/128/#e3243) suggests that maybe it is not as hard a rule as with soulcasters. Maybe there is something I am not aware of, but reading these I would expect even Radiant Soulcasting to be at least less effective when using different gems. But then again, seeing what Jasnah is doing in Oathbringer and RoW, it does not seem she pauses to check if she has correct gems, so if such limit exists it is not particularly strong for Radiants.

I will need to start following Shardcast then From your description it sounds like alerter is a sure thing, and it would make sense. EDIT: Damn, 292 tracks, that is going to take a while

I am currently re-reading Mistborn series, and I have noticed something interesting in Secret History I do not think anyone noted before. In Ire fortress Kelsier sees this That does sound quite like a fabrial does it not? About a half page later Ire engage the device, because they fear Shadows from Threnody are nearby, suggesting it is either some kind of suppressor, or something that would interfere with Threnodite Shadows (as it does not affect Kelsier at all). Also the light fades as the device is turned on This shows that gemstone fabrials are not uniquely Rosharan invention, and can be made without need for Rosharan Investiture and possibly without spren (although Seon/Skaze might have been trapped inside the gemstone, as Ire do not seem to be particularly ethical folk). Further it shows that you do not need Stormlight to fuel fabrials (gem glowed golden, unlike any *-light we know of), but can use other kinds of Investiture as well. EDIT: Interestingly, Ire also have in their personal chambers some real gemstones lying around. They do not seem to be invested in the moment, but since they do not seem to be using them for ornamentation, they might be either 'parts' for fabrials, or batteries if other kinds gaseous Investiture can be also stored in gemstones.

Ah, alright then. I personally lean in the other direction, the rationale being that I read "Remove Powers" as "Remove ability to use Invested Arts". For Allomancers that would be spiking out 'metalborn-ness', for Radiants that would be Nahel Bond, but it is true that there is not evidence to support it. So I think H-Aluminum would not remove Connection generally, only if it facilitates Invested Art. Yes, he did not have scientific explanation, but he was quite clear (both in-universe and out-of-universe) that F-Iron has no effect on density, as LewsTherinTelescope already showed. No amount of arguing is going to change that fact, F-iron does not make people more resistant to damage due to increased density (as stated both in books, annotations to books and WoBs), because their density does not increase. Generally Feruchemy only makes you resistant to what you tapped (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1097) not to external effects (so tapped weight does not break bones, but anyone with a hammer could still easily shatter your collarbone). Aluminum Twin would be partially immune (they would have to be burning metal at the time, or tapping Identity, or both depending on how it plays out) to very few Surges, specifically only those that mess with Spiritweb or Identity. The only Surge that obviously does that is Transformation (but Soulcasting people is generally not very effective way of killing them, Jasnah does it once as an object lesson) and Spiritual Adhesion (power only Bondsmith has), all the other Surges affect strictly physical properties, so Aluminum Twin has no way to touch them, as the Stormlight does not enter their Spiritweb (so A-Aluminum is useless) and they have nothing to do with Identity (so F-Aluminum is useless). Aluminum twin would be able to reverse shard damage, and who knows how much stores would that use up. Of course, Radiant can then either kill them with either direct or indirect application of Surge (Lash stone at them, Lash their clothing, Division on clothing or ground, Soulcasting air, Grow a tree through them, etc.), smashing them with fist (if they have plate), stab them with something other than a Shard (like a Stick) or simply change Shardblade into Shardhammer and hit their head. Since Radiants are already fighting enemies that can heal Shard damage (Fused) they should anticipate the possibility of healing Shard wounds. Two posts back you were saying "...some potential metalborn could go toe-to-toe with Radiant of any Oath.", but now most are effective in support position? So which are the ones that could go toe to toe with Radiant of any Oath, since you did not back up your claim even after I scoured the last 40 pages? Fullborn excepted, I can see some with F-steel (paired with more offensive ability), and those with A-atium (if it is still available, and they would need a lot, or little less if they had F-pewter) as beating Radiants of higher Oaths. Also, even if NoScad has population 30 million (it does not) than there are only 4-6 Twinborn of any specific type, and from those 2-4 would be combat capable (either due to age, physical state or mental state). They would not be that useful in support positions, not much more than Mistings would be (or Ferring when NoScad find a way to refill medallions). Most Twinborn have little to no synergy between their powers, and so are no more effective than Misting or Ferring of their type, the only advantage is that they can fill both roles (but with low numbers that is not particularly interesting). Why are you leaving creative applications of Surges to others? Again, I think people here are interested in discussion that is as objective as possible and are not holding opposing facts back if they have them. Some (probably most) are unconsciously biased either in one way or the other, but I do not think they are intentionally withholding facts that would oppose their 'favorite'. If you have some unseen applications of Surges, please do share. And how would aluminum neutralize/resist Surges? Unless you encase the entire person (i.e. head to toe and no gaps), Reverse Lashing could affect them, and even if they are fully encased in Aluminum, Division could still set the ground on fire, Soulcasting could still create tomb/oil on fire, Lightweaver could still blind them/fool them, Cohesion could still shape stone and trap their feet. Tension and Abrasion would be difficult, but Radiant could still apply it to themselves and have either better protection or better mobility. If you wish to bring future tech into discussion, than we can say Radiants have guns too (Shardguns we have seen, and Fabrial guns should not be too far behind), and suddenly one major advantage of Scadrial is gone (of course by that time Scadrial will have some other tech, but so far we have not seen any). And Radiants can easily leave their planet and keep using Surges as well, so even the second advantage of Scadrial is diminished in the future. We can discuss this, but it would be good if you could say what are the boundaries beforehand (i.e. not pull future tech to someones discussion on Era 2 Scadrial vs post-RoW Roshar). At current tech level, the only way Scadrial can access CR is a Perpendicularity, and they do not know where their is (so they cannot leave). If they found it, and even if it is twice the size of Preservation's, it is still barely 10 feet across, they could not fit much more than a single small car at once, severely restricting them. On Roshar one perpendicularity is underwater and the other who knows where (either at The Origin, or somewhere inside the Highstorm), so neither location is good starting point for Invasion. Due to these limitations, Radiants can retreat into CR as they wish, simply because they can do it wherever they want, and Scadrial is limited to perpendicularities. On the other hand all Rosharans can leave at mass at this very moment, only they cannot take spren, Radiants and Stormlight with them (which of course is a big problem for them). Of course the fact that they cannot leave is Connection issue primarily, and they have three Cognitive Entities that made such trip (Vasher, Nightblood, one Seon) on hand, plus they have two Unchained Bondsmiths (for whom manipulating Connection is as easy as reaching out). If they work at it a bit, they should be able to figure it out pretty fast (especially now that Navani can directly experiment). Ah, except for the problem than any tapping of large amount of attribute is subject to losses no matter the storage speed, so the loss would still be there (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803). So no, Compounder cannot overcome this loss on tapping large amount of attribute, and we had this discussion already. It would be nice if you supported your positions instead of just stating them. Just on this page you said That some metalborn can go toe-to-toe with Radiant of any Oath (but refused to say which, even after I went through last 40 pages to list which ones you were talking about before). That most Twinborn would be best in support positions (but not why they would be useful there, or why would they be better than Mistings/Ferrings). That Surges have some creative application no one talked about (but you are refusing to say which applications those would be) That Aluminum could neutralize or resist most applications of Surges others are talking about (but you do not say how it would resist it, which is important for surges that do not need to be directly applied to enemy like Divison, Soulcasting, Cohesion, Reverse Lashings etc.) It is difficult to discuss these points when you are refusing to elaborate on them, or clarify how you see they would be used. At that point all anyone can do is either ignore them, or try and figure out how it could work and work from there.

If I understand you correctly, you disagree that H-aluminum would effectively "spike out" the Nahel bond? I think it having to do with Connection should not be an issue, since per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/21/#e4548) it seems that stealing Connection is something Hemalurgy can do. Of course that H-aluminum would remove Nahel Bond is speculation, but I think there is evidence to support it, namely Hemalurgy when applied to Surgebinder is not going to steal a Surge, but the Bond (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13432). H-Aluminum removes all powers, per Hemalurgy chart. Combining these two I came to conclusion that H-Aluminum would remove the Bond. I think the first point is not disputable, the power comes from the Bond, so spiking Surgebinder you cannot get any magic other than the Bond. The second point however is based on Hemalurgy Chart, which is an in-world document, and if they did yet encounter surgebinders they would not necessarily know for certain what H-Aluminum would do in that situation.