therunner

All very good points no argument there, I would just add one more thing. While pilots in fighter jets need to be careful not to experience to large g-forces, this should not be an issue for Windrunner (and Skybreakers). The problem for pilots is that the body is not accelerated uniformly (chair pushes body, body pushes blood) which leads for example to blood pooling in the feet or in the back (like when you are in a car and acceleration pushes you in to the seat). However gravity itself won't create such effects, as the entire body is accelerated uniformly and free-fall is technically indistinguishable from being at rest. In effect this means that Windrunners and Skybrekears should be able to pull what we would call high g maneouvers without too much risk to them. They could still hide behind shardblade in shape of shield, which should be impenetrable to nearly anything. So far only Nightblood damaged blade (altough it was an Honorblade). And how many bullets could the Scadrial defense fire at them and hit depends heavily on how would the Rosharan forces attack. Did they use Dustbringers or Skybreakers to create dust cloud for cover? Did they use Lightweaving to blind the defenses? Did they lash rock to fly first to soften up the defenses? Did they attach illusions to those rocks to have defenses fire at them to waste bullets? Did they attack simultaneously from above (Windrunners) and below (Stonewards/Willshapers)? etc. If we assume only a couple Windrunners attampting head-on attack without any help and any proper tactics (no shardblade shield), they would most likely get shot down if the Scadrial forces outnumber them something like 1 to ~30 based on the following assumptions Windrunners start 1000 meters away and go from being at rest to landing at rest. They lash themselves 4 times, so to cover the distance would take them ~12 seconds. Sub-Early 20th century repeating rifles can shoot a round every ~6 seconds, they are shooting aluminum bullets (otherwise reverse lashings would make bullets effectively a non issue). Accuracy is around 1/2 (most likely worse as for most of the time Windrunners are more than 400 meters away and can rapidly change directions). To break a section of plate you need 3 bullets (they are not point blank shots so are slowed down and are made from relatively soft metal (at least outer shell)). It is not realistic to assume that all the rifleman manage to intentionally shoot the same section of the plate, and we assume plate has ~10 distinct sections. (if we neglected this one it would be 1 to 8; 6 to break section and 2 to guarantee hit to the exposed body part). I intentionally ignored machine guns, as the only use so far was relatively point blank situation, so it is difficult to estimate how accurate they are at hundreds of meters. They could potentially tilt the balance so that Scadrial needs only parity. I agree. Personally I doubt that Radiant can intentionally dodge a bullet after it was fired. I mostly assume they would move around in some sort of 3D zig-zag pattern to make aiming more difficult. Multiple regular heavy hammers wielded by Warform parshendi can break sections of plate after minutes of sustained attack, not with a couple of hits. Also the plate is clearly not rigid, as it conforms to users shape and is wholly covering them, including around joints and neck where the plate would need to be flexible. It seems that the plate behaves 'as needed', i.e. if it needs to be rigid and hard it is, if it needs to be flexible it is, and it has no impact on its defensive properties. The helmet Kal used did not crack from his offensive use of it, it cracked from multiple hits from Shardblades. If Shardplate could be damaged by a non-magical force impacting at regular strength over a small area people would have noticed sometime in the last ~2000 years since Recreance. Not to mention that the Fused would have known after ~6500 years of conflict, and since they are using aluminum but don't treat it as some ultimate weapon I would not expect aluminum to provide significant advantage either. Remember that the Fused were worried about one 4th Oath Radiant being in the Tower before they launched attack. If they could easily break plate with Aluminum weapons, why would they fear them so much? Vindication to me sounded like a replacement for the .36 caliber gun Wax was using previously so I expected it do be comparable in size, however the Hazekiller rounds are larger so I think .44 sounds reasonable. Vindication also does not seem to do that much more damage usually, it is just much more accurate. Also while the slugs might be larger than those used in m16 or ak47, the Era 2 rifles would in to way be comparable to the stopping power those assault rifles could provide. The .44 Henry rounds are ~14 grams and fire at ~1100 ft/s; The ak-47 uses 7.62x39mm bullets weight at least 7.9 grams, but are fired at ~2300 ft/s. The M16 uses 5.56x45mm rounds weight at least 3.6 grams, but are fired at ~3300 ft/s. So Ak-47 fires bullet that has both better momentum and over twice the kinetic energy, and M16 fires bullet with slightly less momentum (about 3/4) but has larger kinetic energy (about 2.3 times as much). Nothing suggests you can pierce the Shardplate, even Brandon talks about shattering a section, suggesting that you need to break a section first and simply piercing it is not possible. If Shardblade (with incredibly thin edges) wielded by someone in Shardplate (so at least 10 times as strong as human) cannot pierce the plate, I doubt a bullet could. In addition to pierce the plate you would need to displace the material plate is from, and that would be much heavier than the bullet. Also the plate heals just as well no matter how much damage it takes, it just needs to be provided with enough Stormlight. I calculated this about 30 pages back I think. It came out 4 cm assuming density of steel, assuming density of tungsten it was around 2cm (using known weight of plate ~600 kg and the fact that area of human skin is ~ 2m^2). In reality it would be a bit thinner I think, as it has a couple percent larger surface area than human skin, but it should be 1cm thick at minimum. This means that person in Shardplate has thicker armour than most tanks used in WW1, and Scadrial has worse weapons than those used in WW1. No bullet they have is going to pierce that. I don't think it is that the cutting ability is neutralized, I think it is the usual effect of Investiture resisting Investiture. Shardplate is 1 cm thick at minimum, non-rigid (as it is flexible enough to cover joints and head and still allow regular movement), fixes itself, transmits attenuated sensory input to user (even in shardgloves you can still pick up fine details by touch), can actively adapt (see how it started blocking lighting strikes to not blind Adolin), can resist ordinary weapons for minutes at a time and enhances users strength to at least 10 usual people. And this is deadplate, not living plate. Ordinary plate vs modern small arms loses, if you have chainmail under plate you have some chance. Shardplate is strictly better than regular plate for defense, otherwise Roshar could use that (Heralds did have advanced knowledge of metalurgy).

I see that among your interests you list hating on LoTR and Eragon, any particular reasons for that? Also where are you from (if that is okay thing to ask, I am not very used to online interactions)?

I am not from U.S. so I am not using their definition, nor am I a legal expert. In my understanding key difference between killing and murder is that murder is intentional. If you kill someone through neglect or accident it is not necessarily murder (exceptions would exist). If Elhokar did 'forget' them intentionally to hide his failing then I would think it is murder or at least close to one. I was under the impression that it was not intentional on his part so that is why I pushed back against it being murder, and I would personally call it negligent homicide. This line of discussion started with your assertion that government is fundamentally violence, however if any interaction of larger groups of people is also fundamentally violent then government is not special in this regard and I don't know why it should be singled out. I may be misunderstanding where you were going with this point. I am not saying pacifism, but you have options emigration for example (unless you are of very lower nahn). Violence is an option, but it should generally be last resort (both on part of organizations and on part of people). If you don't pay taxes your property would be seized. The person not paying taxes were the ones who violated the social contract, so you could argue that they committed violence in abstract sense. If they beat people they engage in violence and defense is obviously merited which will be necessarily violent. My overall point on this is that while violence is a tool of government, it should be a tool of last resort, i.e. used only when other options have failed. In that sense you can argue that ultimately all power of government rests on violence, as it is always an option. Ah, I misunderstood you then. The first two sentences sounded to me like you are saying that the middle dahns have the right restricted, not that the right is restricted to them. Apologies. EDIT: reply to part of @Bejardin1250 post I agree that he hated him and then looked for justification which Graves provided, but you then say it was not a reason, what was?

The way I read it is that middle dahn do have the right to movement, they can move elsewhere if they are unhappy, and he is explicit that they are not serfs. The lack of some legal rights is definitely problematic, but we don't know what is the extent of that. It can very well be that lowest dahns are effectively equal socially to richer high nahns, except that dahns can rise to status of landed title whereas nahn cannot. Also Roshone wanted to get rid of multiple business rivals, of whom Moash's grandparents are an example. It is possible that others were lighteyes. And he was punished when it was revealed that the charges against them were false (and we don't know whether Elhokar knew the charges were false when he imprisoned them before trial), albeit not to extent he should have been. Murder is premediated killing of another. Imprisonment leading to suicide when that was not intended does not fulfill the premeditated part, nor when the people die in prison due to their age. Is it awful? Yes. Is it murder? No. Yeah, I suspected that some of our disagreement is at least partly because we use the same word to mean different things. To me 'racism' is simply specific kind of prejudice based on ethical characteristic, so prejudice based on eye color is racism to me. Often this becomes entangled with racial superiority but I don't think that is necessarily a part of it. For example Kaladin does not think that darkeyes are physically or mentally superior, but he does tend to think that all lighteyes are morally bankrupt and they need to prove to him that they are not. The modern trend to restrict definition of racism to effectively only systemic racism is problematic to me because it feels overly restrictive, as in what behavior is racist or not starts being contextual, which feels weird to me. It is entirely possible that I am on the wrong side of history on this one, and power and racism are inextricably linked, but so far I don't think so, and so will use 'racism' for behaviors that are prejudiced based on ethnic characteristics and 'systemic racism' for social structures that deepen and entrench casual racism of members of society.

I understand the distancing, but I am disappointed in him helping only those of different race. He did take on hard labour, so that can be considered a round about way of helping other humans. I agree with the first reasoning, it was due to his proximity. But that does not make it right, even if it is understandable. Also a good point on how he might have perceived the situtation. Sadly we are not in his head for WoR (Moash flash-backs when?) but from what I remember about his actions, I would not think this was his reasoning, but I can easily be wrong about that. Are they? I know that socially speaking they were somewhat comparable, but Moash's grandparents were of second nahn, and yet economically were a threath to Roshone who was at least 5th dahn (as being citylord is still a demotion for him). Again, I can be wrong on this part, but from what I remember and from what is on coppermind, i think that while socially any nahn goes over any dahn, when it comes to wealth higher nahns can be better off than low dahns. This WoB also seems to support that (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13069) I will have to pay more attention to this when I do my re-read. That makes sense, and yeah I agree that advanced age can be debilitating. True, I think that is partly because for Kal that is part of his character arc. Also most lighteyes would not call out other lighteyes (as they see it as normal) and darkeyes could not afford to call out lighteyes. Kaladin is a 'safe' target in that sense (and man is this sentence expressing horrible sentiment). Oh, I understand why he would feel that way, and that self-hatred is a sad thing to see. But it is still disappointing to me to see him help some but not others solely on their species. Although in his defense, those Singers were treated worse than humans. I thought that even dark eyes can use human slaves, it is just that they are more expansive so they don't get access. Anyone of tenth nahn is a slave and can be bought and sold, I am not aware of any restriction saying only lighteyes can use them. I thought the distinction is important is all Systemic racism is definitely worse one, but that does not mean other racists behaviors should get free pass.

Moash only had issue with Singers enslaving other Singers, he did not have issue with them enslaving humans. It would have been a bit unpleasant due to systemic racism and his past as darkeyes, but it was still an option. There are power gaps even in our world, but that would not entitle me to kill someone just because reaching them through systemic measures is difficult. And again, Moash completely ignores Roshone in favor of Elhokar when it comes to his grandparents deaths, and Roshone would have been easily reachable for him even through legal means. Heh, good point At some point the eye color stopped being associated with Knights Radiant, I think? Kaladin did not expect to get lighteyes when he got Syl blade (but he feared it), suggesting that currently people no longer know the link between eye color and Radiants. So Knights Radiants helped kickstart the system, and after Recreance the eyecolor slowly stopped being associated with Radiants and was only associated with nobility/positions of power. After recreance the Vorin church underwent reformations that saw Radiants falling out of favor (due to their perceived betrayal), but light eyes as favor of Almighty remained. Again, good point. The shardblade as a method of social mobility would have mostly been a false hope, but amassing wealth would have been a viable way to achieve power de facto, if not de jure. It is definitely problematic, I don't dispute that. Detention awaiting trial is not that unusual, even today. They should have been taken care of better, that is true, but we don't know the exact manner of their deaths so it is difficult to say how much was mistreatment and how much was old age + stress. Also we don't know if they had severe physical problems. Again, I agree that what happened to them is definitely horrible and unjust, but I don't think it should carry a death penalty. I never said racism against Darkeyes does not exist, I just said that Kaladin was also racist against light eyes. He started giving them a chance only after being proded by Syl. And being prejudiced against someone solely based on their physical characteristic is a sign of bad character in my book. Does it make sense considering his trauma? Yes, but if he did nothing about it I would think less of Kaladin. While Dalinar does not think about it much, he does elevate dark eyed slave into position that would normally come to light eyes of sixth dahn at least. That does not excuse his other actions or behaviors obviously, but he does seem to question at least somethings. Being put in demeaning position does not justify murder. Moash was at that point high in social hierarchy (and Elhokar had no power over that social standing), had material wealth and had other options to try and seek justice first. Yes people being okay with enslavement makes them morally worse, it is a mark against their character. Other actions and stances can count as marks for their character and then you need to balance all of it. Also dark eyes also use slaves, so they are also morally worse off on this. In case of Moash he at that point internalized Singer racism against humans and was not bothered by enslavement of humans, i.e. he does not have problem with slavery per se, only what it happens to 'wrong' group. He chooses to step in to help slaves (good) but only because they are not humans (bad). Others who don't even try to help slaves are worse of in my view, at least along this particular moral line. I...never said that racism is not bad? Nor did I say that inequality is okay? I just brought up points where I think eyesim in Vorin countries differs from real-life racism, because it does (you can't stop being some ethnicity just by getting particularly rare sword for example). And dark eyes can make good money by being traders, surgeons or craftsmen. How is imprisonment worse than murder? Is death penalty preferable to imprisonment? What happened to them was horrible, I never said it was not Notice the word 'typically' in that definition. Kaladin was racist and Kaladin can be racist, being part of minority does not change that. He was not particularly extreme in his views or his actions, but he did judge people based on their physical characteristic. Him being a minority means that his racism cannot effect others as it could had he had more power, he also cannot take part in systemic racism. But racism is not the same things as systemic racism. Thought experiment: Take a neo-nazi, and then plant him in the middle of China let's say, does he stop being a racist just because he is now a minority? True, but at that point violence is not tool of government but a tool of any interactions of larger groups of people, government is not particularly special in that regard. True, but that compelling can be also through debate, discussion and education. Or enforced by social means, like ostracism. In that scenario, yes you would need to compel them. I do think that being able to recruit 'non-essentials' is wrong, and should be changed (professional armies tend to do better so it is also practical), but from what I remember that is not something that happens often and in fact people in Hearhstone were shocked that Amaram wanted to compel people to go to army.

It has been a while since my read of tWoR, but I don't think he sees him like that at all? My read was the he wanted to kill him for two reasons Vengeance (the personal motivation) Elhokar's incompetence as king (Graves strengthen this motivation, and Moash used this to justify why the killing would be 'right') He does not really seem to care about the oppression of others in these moments, only about who wronged him. I might be misremembering somethings, so please correct me if that is the case. Additionally, in Oathbringer he does not seem to have problem with Singers enslaving people, and only steps in to protect Singers. The act of protection does him credit, but why did he not try to help others who were human? Except Moash was not 'just' a bodyguard, at that point he was light-eyes of 4th dahn, socially outranked Kaladin and was officially only step below Amaram in social hierarchy for example. The plate and the blade were his, and even if he was no longer bodyguard they would make him very desirable (Shardblade costs the same as some small kingdoms). He also did not need to go to king first, he could have gone to Dalinar first, the man he thought would make better king. I completely agree with this, Moash was not privy to the same conversations Kaladin was so he would not know how Elhokar doubts himself and that he genuinely wants to do better. But even if he was, he need not forgive Elhokar at all. While there are parallels, there are also obvious differences that make 1-to-1 comparison flawed I think. For one, the lighteyes/darkeyes divide has roots in Heralds and Knight Radiants, who would be leading people by virtue of their powers and Oaths and who would be among the morally 'better' people on Roshar. Knights Radiant as an institution existed for over 4000 years, that kind of time leaves cultural mark. This social structure would then provide the basis for Shardbearers to become leaders (as they would get light-eyes) and by virtue of their power they would start noble houses leading to system we have today. This does not make the system just, but unlike our history there used to be a reason to think lighteyes person was in some sense 'better'. Additionally there is a way of social mobility, either by claiming a Shardblade or by amassing wealth. The second one will not cause elevation to light-eyes, but in practice wealthy enough dark eyes have power over poorer light eyes. With return of Radiants there is now another way up the social ladder. There was no death sentence or imprisonment without judicial process, they were in prison awaiting trial and died there due to their advanced age. The were there for too long because Elhokar forgot about them it seems, which is obviously horrible, but it is neither death sentence nor slavery. It is criminal neglect not murder. That is because Kaladin is literally racist against all lighteyes, he judges them all based on their eye color and they need to prove themselves to him that they are in fact not bad people. Not to mention his reaction to finding out that his eyes are light when he summons Syl blade. As a traumatized person his reaction is understandable, but that does not change it.

I think we have some fundamentally different believes on nature of justice and governance, so I don't think either will convince the other. I do find your perspective interesting so I would not mind continuing. No I judge people based on their actions first, their motivations second. His social maladjustment nudged him in this direction, but at the time he was also surrounded by other more adjusted people (Kaladin, Rock, Drehy, most of Bridge Four, other soldiers) who he could have look towards for different role model. Here Kaladin plays a role in Moash's 'fall', in that he validated Moash's choices until he changed his mind (I haven't red WoR in a while so I am not sure on the exact timeline) So I do think that Kal holds some responsibility for where Moash ended up, but Moash is still the one responsible for his choices (of course we could also debate on nature of free will in setting where future sight is a thing, and sould exist in spiritual realm which is 'timeless'). I can't speak for other people, but for me personally that first betrayal and continued doubling down on it is the primary source for my dislike of Moash. His killing of Elhokar in Oathbringer is secondary to me (but the kick was downright petty and cruel). I personally also do not dislike Moash (at the end of Oathbringer), pity or disappointment is closer to how I felt about him. There were still hints of a good person there (his treatment of those Singers for example), and I would have loved to see him develop those positive attributes more. Alas he seems more focused on the negative attributes. Good point, but it does highlight that most people would not see plain murder as socially acceptable. For me personally, had Moash left Bridge Four (thereby divesting himself of his oath to protect the king) and then tried to kill him, I would find that more acceptable course of action. Of course, it would also not be particularly smart one, as he would lose his ease of access to target. I again disagree with that. Yes, if there is uprising army will be called out, but I don't think that means that government is fundamentally violence. Government can certainly use violence to impose its will, but it is not the only tool at its disposal. (this depends on how broadly do you interpret violence). Ideally government should be consensual contract, you divest yourself of some power (i.e. to kill whomever you like, to steal, to start your own government) in exchange for some benefits (protection from actions of other people, use of public goods like roads, etc.). In Alethar the nobility should protect their people from bandits, or other nations for example, and guarantee some help in case of natural disasters. In exchange, people can be recruited to army and give part of their harvest/goods/money to their lord. The system has some issues (light/dark eyes divide, limited social mobility, slavery), but it still afford people some measure of justice and protection

As a single person, yes. As a lighteyes and potential Radiant under Dalinar? He might extract something. And he could still easily seek justice on Roshone (as at that point he outranks him as 4th dahn), whom he ignores in favor of Elhokar. Moash's refusal to work with any sort of system does not help his case at all. He did not try to seek justice in some other way, he went straight to murder. I agree that the system is inherently unjust, but Moash never even tries to work with the system. He chooses a goal (kill Elhokar) and ignores everything else (Roshone being the instigator, options afforded to him as lighteyes etc.) I sympathize (empathize? not sure which is more appropriate) with his plight, but simply cannot agree with his chosen method. No, Moash betrayed them first. He was member of Bridge Four, betrayed his sworn duty and then attacked his commanding officer nearly killing him. If he succeeded do you think the rest of Bridge Four would not be punished in some way for their failure? Moash betrayed Bridge Fours first, and then he tried to get Kaladin to betray them as well. Murder is rarely seen as answer in any sort of civilization. Even in civilizations that used killing as a social tool, there were rules (duels etc.) that needed to be obeyed. Even police can/should only kill when there is a clear and present danger (which there was not in case of pre-planned assasination of drunk Elhokar).

I disagree with that, is every puppet king responsible for actions done in his name? Elhokar was reasonably in control (and was not yet king, only prince), but was still poorly advised and the deaths seem to be accidental, not intentional. Supreme power changes nothing about the fact that those deaths were not intentional on Elhokar's part, is neglect punishable by death? EDIT: I don't mean to say that Elhokar carries no responsibility, I just think that the primary responsibility lies with Roshone, and Elhokar's part is comparatively minor. He should suffer some consequences, but I think death is too much. At the very least he should abdicate the throne. I made up my mind already, in my mind Moash is primarily bad because of his repeated betrayals and because he keeps doubling down on it. If he were to change his behavior for the better, I would start thinking him good. To some extent I perceive him as similar to Dalinar after Rathalas, with the difference being that Dalinar sought refuge in alcohol and Moash in void of Odium (and that Dalinar never repeated his actions). I would imagine that void of Odium would be harder habit to kick, but if he manages that, alone or with help, and start trying to be better I would wholeheartedly support that. I will try to answer the other questions as succinctly as possible, to not derail the thread I like Kaladin despite breaking his word to Moash, because that very word constituted betrayal on Kaladin's part. He was talked into breaking his oath, and eventually turned from that path. Also Kaladin did not tell Moash to give up on justice, he tried to convince Moash to seek justice on the true instigator, Roshone, and that they should do it the right way, not by betraying people. Moash refused. I deplore Dalinar for burning Rathalas because he hurt people who had nothing to do with decisions of lords of that city. Those people were not responsible for rebellion at Rathalas, and so did not deserve to be punished. You could argue that a lot of those people tacitly supported the rebellions, but children and others did not, yet were still hurt by Dalinar's action. If Dalinar burned only Tanalan to death, I could kind of see that, but would still consider it too far, as it would be unnecessarily brutal. Which murder of Zahel do you mean?

Except that Elhokar didn't kill Moash's grandparents. His choice of advisor, inexperience and neglect led to their deaths, yes, but from what we see there was no intent to kill them there, only to 'help' someone he considered his friend by removing his business rivals. Of course this is of little solace to Moash, but that distinction is important I think. If Moash sought vengenace on Roshone, the instigator of the actions that led to his grandparents deaths, I would have easier time accepting his actions. But instead he goes after someone who is in his reach and who he swore to protect. Personally, while I do dislike Moash to some extent (because he seems to be just stubbornly digging himself deeper), his outrage on this injustice is understandable. Had he had someone to talk to about his grienences with Elhokar before splinter of The Diagram recruited him, I think he easily could have been Windrunner (or maybe Skybreaker, depending on how he would choose to grow) on par with Kaladin, which is what makes him so frustrating to me.

I meant faster than anything used for movement. Though pebble lashed enough along free trajectory would still move faster than a bullet. They can detect rhythms of others burning metals, not tones of mist or Well (even regular Bronze mistings did not hear well, and they were stronger in Era 1). Rosharan could intuit those properties of mists based on their pre-existing experience with other gaseous investiture. F-zinc burner has nothing to work off as you yourself say. I am not sure why you are quoting the WoB I linked. Yes, pushing Shardblades is hard, harder than anything shown on screen so far. It is possible, but in other places Brandon says that it would take something like Vin being fueled with Mists, and conventionally it is not possible (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/115/#e7579) And it being possible does not change the fact that Wax cannot even push metalminds piercing bodies, even when tapping weight. Again, Scadrian investiture is not intrinsic (for allomancy and hemalurgy at least). When they are not burning they are not particularly invested (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93-odysseycon-2016/#e2675) and when burning the power is coming from spiritual realm (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/412/#e13887). That connection to shard in spiritual realm is what would be stolen.

And it is still far faster than anything present on Scadrial short of Steelrunners. Even in battle, since they can accelerate nearly arbitrarily fast. Mists are gaseous investiture (like Stormlight), Mists can infuse gemstones (like stormlight, even if not as easily), Mists can be breathed in and power magic (like Stormlight). How are they different, outside of superficial properties (appearing in Highstorm vs appearing some nights from thin air). Are you seriously suggesting that a random metalborn with A-bronze and F-zinc can develop anti-investiture weapons against anything? Really? Scadrians have very little knowledge about Cognitive Realm, much less about Spiritual Realm, or experience with direct manipulation of investiture. Kelsier did develop that skill, he uses it his fight with Bendak. I mean, what he did in that fight was closer to what Magneto does, not to what Mistborn do. And Vin never did anything like that, the closest she comes is her horseshoe trick, which is admittedly impressive, but not as impressive as using pushes and pulls to rotate metal rods in air in roughly the same place. Is Vin more talented than Kel? Yes. Is she a better Mistborn? Yes. Is she better at using Iron and Steel? No. Except Shardblade is not invested metal, it is solid investiture, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e247) and pushing on part is more difficult than pushing on a whole. Shardplate is comparably invested as shardblades are, with blades being a bit more invested. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299) Also Wax never comments on detecting more metal/smaller metal/metal in bodies when tapping weight, he can just push more because he is heavier. And in BoM Wax is never shown to actually detect the bands or see them with metal lines. He is holding them after being revived, then he tosses them out of window, and in the next scene he holds them again. Never is he shown detecting them with metal lines. At least I was unable to find any such scene, if someone could please show a scene where he detects BoM with metal lines I would be grateful. Scadrians are not particularly invested when not burning metals (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2675). When burning metal there is Connection opened to Spiritual Realm, that is where the power is coming from. In principle that Connection could be stolen, or moved. I was under the impression that we are currently discussing mainly Era 2 Scadrial and post-RoW Roshar, not space-age equivalents. A lot could change that shifts the dynamic in a couple centuries.

Ah, thank you for correcting me. I was only looking through parts with Wax and bands, I forgot to check parts with Marasi.

He only realized they were invested when he was holding them and using them, then he felt the charge inside. He still could not push or pull them, and he had to check other parts of the statue manually for charge, because he could not distinguish it from aluminum. Also even with Bands he does not seem to be able to push on spikes, as he only comments on the coin his uncle is hiding in his mouth, not on his spikes. But that is conjecture. EDIT: And the conjecture is wrong, as @Inquisitor #5 shows below. For the speeds I make very little assumptions. Gravitational acceleration on Roshar is known from Arcanum Unbounded (being 0.7 of Cosmere Standard, with Scadrial being 1 Cosmere standard and ~10 m/s^2). The size is estimated from the map of Roshar and distance given in the book and WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39/#e409). The estimation is done here (https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/745ucn/twok_finally_the_dimensions_of_the_roshar/). Since that calculation assumes the same main distances as those given in WoB and in books I think it can be considered fairly accurate. But if we want to stick to books and WoBs, Kal himself says he traveled over a thousand miles in half a day, 1000 miles ~ 1600 km (Oathbringer, Chapter 5). And per WoB Rosharan day is only 20 hours (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314/#e8928). So Kaladin averaged ~160 km/h at least, probably a bit over that. EDIT: And that is assuming that Kal meant literally half-of-day, not half of waking hours, which is what people generally mean by that (as far as I am aware). In that case he would be moving at ~260 km/h (assuming Rosharan sleep for 8 hours). In the previous post I overestimated the distance a bit, but I also overestimated the length of day and those two luckily cancelled out. Also Kal did travel from Shattered plains, he says so in the same chapter. True, I merely pushed back on your assertation that anti-investiture is confirmed only for Roshar. However considering the fact that Mists can be trapped in Gemstones ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A67G4ObX7CM&t=6600s ), and Preservation does have Pure Tone (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/408/#e14586), so I would expect that making of anti-mists could proceed along similar lines.

Per very brand new information (last livestream on youtube), capturing mists into gemstones is theoretically possible (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A67G4ObX7CM&t=6600s). Since clearly no has yet noticed it, it is most likely not as easy as on Roshar (i.e. leave them lying around and they will fill) but maybe if you pressurized the mist and put the gemstone nearby maybe?

I will address only points others did not, or to add some point. Wax never even approached what Vin was doing. Vin: 1) Pushed on trace metals 2) Pushed on metal inside peoples bodies (including very full metalminds) 3) Pushed on hemalurgic spikes 4) Flattened a giant castle just by trace metals in stone Wax: 1) destroyed one wooden building, but pushing on nails holding the building together. And since he was above the building, the metal items needed to support his increased weight. He did nothing else that would be comparable, and in fact cannot do those other things (he does not even see trace metals, if he could push on metalminds impaled in hands, he would do so against Miles, in BoM he never pushes on spikes (but I am not there in my re-read yet)) EDIT: One last point, Wax was unable to realize that Bands were not aluminum, and those are even less invested than Shardblades. If nearly full metalminds is too Invested for him to push on, Shardblades are completely out of his reach. Oh, we do have a baseline. Rosharan gravity is ~0.7 that of Scadrial, and since humans did not evolve there but only adapted it would stand to reason they would be at worst roughly 0.7 times weaker than usual. Then again, there are bridge crews that support bridge that weight ~2000 kg (in Rosharan gravity) at minimum for hours on end and can be lifted by 25 men, giving them strength comparable to normal human (lifting 80 kg overhead). So for worst case scenario, If we assume that warform is 2-3 times as strong as Rosharan human, that gives it 2*0.7 = 1.4 / 3*0.7 = 2.1 strength of Scadrian human, potentially nearly that of someone burning pewter. Again even Regals are stronger, and Fused stronger still. The one that hit Jasnah was of Progression so could grow his muscles as he desired, and he knew what plate can withstand so he had no reason to hold back. Conservatively he was as strong as ~4 Scadrian humans, and he was hitting her with both hands. But if Rosharan humans are closer in strength to Scadrial ones, as the bridge crews suggest, then the Fused hitting Jasnah could have been as strong as ~5-6 people. I re-read that section, Kal lashed exactly two stones and neither at Amaram. He lashed (multiple lashings) one at one Fused to stop it from going after Dalinar, and another to spook Amaram's horse to carry away Shardbow. In neither case does he comment on it consuming a lot of stormlight, in fact he does not comment on it at all he just does it. In that fight he fought Amaram (with plate, 2 Shardblades, and Yelig-Nar so learning to use all surges), couple of Fused with Gravitation (2-3) and a couple of Fused with Progression (6-7), and he had to split his attention between Amaram and protecting himself and Dalinar. He mostly used up his light to heal his wounds, because Kal sustained the following injuries Broken both ankles. Broken shoulder. Some internal injuries from being hit and flung with a club. Stabbed into stomach. Grabbed by a foot and slammed into ground (2x). Again hit by clubs at least two more times, causing internal injuries. Stomped on (by Fused with Progression), shattering multiple ribs and causing most likely massive internal injuries. After all this (and with Fused carrying away spheres) he runs out of Stormlight, but is still healed well enough that his injuries are no longer life-threatening. Even Bloodmaker would use up at least 1 month of health to survive this (Wayne used up 2 weeks to heal two bullet wounds and having his back burned). That is only ever mentioned by Mr. Suit, while talking with Wax who holds Bands, and trying to get him to stand down. He had every reason to overstate what the explosives could do. Considering that ship was only meant to destroy relatively single temple, it does not make much sense they would carry this level of ordinance. Also, when previously in Mr. Suit's head he was mostly thinking about the airships themselves, not about how impressive the weapons are (this is admittedly not that strong an evidence, but you would think he would also think about city destroying weapon when thinking about how will warfare change). But we can calculate how much speed they can get up, and how long it will take them, very easily. And it is a couple of seconds to move at hundreds of km per hour under few lashings. We also now that Kal went from Shattered Plains to within a few days of walk from Hearthstone under half a day, and that distance is ~1800 km (since we know roughly the size of the continent), giving speed ~150 km/h of sustained lashing. All Shards have related anti-investiture. In the latest youtube Livestream someone asked what would happen if you introduced proper anti-investiture into Sel's cognitive, and per Brandon that would be a bad idea. In fact he himself used the words 'anti-investiture of right type', so clearly Investiture of other Shards also has anti-investiture. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14713)

I wanted to err on the side of caution, precisely because of that reasoning. I would rather be a bit overcareful, then to accidentally offend. Agreed, as we know very little of mechanics behind suppresors it is difficult to speculate on more than 'other magic systems can be suppresed also'. On historical use, I was under the impression that the one of Raboniel (used at the beggining of book) was relatively recent invention (i.e. sometime between Last Desolation and Final Desolation). Knights Radiant had access sooner, but those were of Siblind, so they might not have fully understood how to make them. Good point, though they at least can experiment faster with different blends of steel. Soulcaster trained in metallurgy (or at least a bit knowledgeable) should be able to produce different kinds of steel with some practice. But it would take some time before they could reliably produce it. Also a good point :/ I keep forgetting this detail of soulcasting. That does make using casts and water bit less practical.

Those building sized shapes were their form in physical. Earlier in the chapter Kaladin and Shallan encounter the Fused along with Thrill in the cognitive near Oathgate in Thaylen City, and those Fused than vanish into the physical. This is mirrored in the Venli parts, where she sees them appear in the physical. At least that is how I read it, the other option is that the Thunderclasts went directly from Cognitive into stone, which would make trapping them even more problematic. Because he was a bit insane, and was winning. He had no reason to try harder, he had Vin and Marsh on the ropes. The only reason he died is that he had Achilles heal in the form of his atium minds, and the fact that Vin somehow breathed in Mists (something that no else ever did based on what we know). If your normal pushes are so strong you can push on metals in other people's bodies, you don't have much need for skill. The only one who pushed/pulled on metal inside a person was Vin when she was fueled by Mists, no else did anything like that. I guess my point is that while Twinborn can be more skilled with their powers than Fullborn, Fullborn is so far beyond them in raw power that it does not matter. Good point, however it was still hits from Shardblade, and those are repeatedly shown to shatter sections in just two blows (even from people not in plate). And also the helmet was still not destroyed, it was heavily cracked and leaking stormlight, but not shattered. Yes, but in that same battle Jasnah gets hit multiple times, and this is the only time her plate cracks even a bit. Also I would assume that Fused that can grow parts of their bodies on demand would also grow muscles. Even basic Warform is 2-3 times as strong as human, Stormform is stronger, and Fused are still considered to be stronger. I honestly don't remember such a thing with Kal, when was it? We have seen Szeth Lash Dalinar straight up in the air, and he did fly high enough to not be seen so conservatively maybe 80 meters. This alone gives Windrunners range of around ~120 meters if firing projectiles that weight around ~80-100 kg. If the amount of light needed to lash heavy objects scales linearly with mass, than you could use same amount of stormlight to lash 1kg stone and fire it with maximum range of ~9.5-12 km. Admittedly it would not be very precise, at least not until they would learn how to use reverse lashings to create guided projectiles (or to use attractors for similar effect). (I need to re-read RoW to find reference to this). At this point Windrunners are the fastest and most maneuverable people in the air, the only ones who are comparable are Heavenly Ones, who beat them in maneuverability but lose in speed. They also have access to Adhesion, Surge of Pressure and Vacuum. If this surge can be used in the way this name implies, they could lessen the air density around themselves, reaching even higher speeds (at a cost of maneuverability). How could A-Gold tip scales? A-Aluminum is immune only to direct investiture attacks, lashed stone still kills them, as does regular sword, plated punch, Shardblade in form of crushing weapon (hammer, flail, club), or being set on fire (or eventually lasers). And they are immune only so long as they are burning aluminum, currently the most expansive metal on Scadrial. Gaspers, are regular people that don't need to breathe (if they have large enough stores, which would most likely require some Compounders to maintain), they are not invisible. Subsumers would not need supply lines for food and water, but still need them for everything else, i.e. bullets, explosives, medical material etc. And again, they would need Compounders to maintain their stores. Again, they are just regular people who don't need to eat or drink if they have enough stores in metalmind, this gives them a small indirect advantage over regular people, but not much else. And again, they are not invisible, anyone with life sense, or a bunch of spren, or someone in cognitive can find them. Conjoiners make Bridge Four possible, that is much in my book. They also allow communication that cannot be intercepted, and to direct movements over large distances. The glove fabrial was close enough that Leshwi was at first confused how he does it, when suppresors are active. It is crude, but it does allow flight-like movement in arbitrary direction. Building sized is enough when you just need it to negate opponent magical abilities, like ettmetal grenades and machinery, Rioting/Soothing or those pesky Steelrunners. And you can use multiple of them. Bridge Four is quite slow currently, but is also the first ever build and was build less then a year after it was proved you can use fabrials to create floating platforms. And Scadrial does not have anti-air cannons, or flak, or mass production of medallions (and we don't know if that will even be possible) or aluminum or military equipment, or trained armies. For all we know NoScad and SoScad will go to war, and SoScad will bomb NoScad back to the stone age, and so deprive Scadrial of most of metalborn (and large part of its already small population). It is the about the main ship, the one Suit and Wax have their stand-off on, the one that supposedly carries the bomb. Explosives made of godmetal, metal that is most likely even more rare than aluminum. And Radiant like F-gold can heal nearly anything if they have enough stormlight to do so. Shardplate can be repaired so long as any piece of any size remains and you feed it stormlight, and that is deadplate. Possibly, if we had more than one person we could say more. And there is still the case of Venli, who is using her Radiant Surge without an issue, she just needs to fuel it with Voidlight, not Stormlight. Good points, but I don't fully agree. While I do think that Ruin and Preservation are very close to one anothers opposites in some sense, I don't think that makes them necessarily anti-investiture to one another. Remember that they created Scadrial together wholesale, including the souls of all creatures there. If their investiture always destroyed each other on contact, that would be very difficult if not outright impossible to do. There is the fact that mists are repelled by Hemalurgy, but someone with spike would be repellent to spren as well, so it might be more general effect. The repelling can also be explained in that they have opposite 'charges/Intents', if Coulomb equation had minus sign in front of it, different charges would repel and yet electron would not be anti-particle of proton. The amplification also relies on suppresor to work along the lines of Rhythms, but anti-Tone has very different effect on investiture from that of suppresor. Voidlight was actively repelled away from anti-Tone, but all the Stormlight in the Tower is still there, and is never described as pushing/pulling somewhere even after suppresors were tuned to Radiants. I quite like the idea of using water to fill the molds, that is very cheap and efficient way to properly fill them. To build on this, I think even more complicated things can be created by your method as follows Create object out of wood, clay, or something else. Soulcast air around it (and inside it) into a mold. Soulcast the original object into air Cut the mold in half with shardblade (or some tool that cuts sufficiently finely), Ta-da, reusable mold for the more difficult object. If the object had a hole in the middle not connected to outside, this method would still not work, but with others it might help to need to create complicated object only once.

All right here is the direct transcription, other who have access may confirm: and later on So yes, the thunderclast souls are building sized. All the fullborn needs to do is compound F-steel, F-gold and have a lot of chromium on hand, for example. They don't need great mastery when they can brute force nearly anything. And if they happen to focus on the abilities that would make them danger to Radiant, they are far more dangerous than any twinborn. Just as even twin-gold would be killed by aluminum weapons, and anyone on Scadrial without F-gold is still easier to kill. Per Brandon they can heal literally nearly anything (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788) and it is effectively the same as gold-healing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6336). That helmet was not keyed to him and was dead (with unknown effects), also drained stormlight to reshape itself, and was used to deflect multiple blows (at least 4) from Shardblades wielded by someone in plate. So no, it was not demolished just by above average strength, it was demolished by Shardblades wielded by Shardplated people. (WoR, Ch. 57) Jasnah goes to battle in fully functioning plate, and the only time it gets damaged (on a helmet by coincidence) its from a Fused (Magnified One, progression) who jumped and slammed both of axe-shaped hands on her head. (RoW, Ch. 64) And that only cracked it, and was seemingly fixed nearly immediately, and it did not drain too much of her stormlight to do so. As Frustration said, terminal velocity is ~200 km/h under earth gravity (and that is going belly-first), ~300 km/h when going head-first. We have v_t = sqrt(2*m*g/(\rho * A * C_d)) (m = mass of falling object, rho = density of air, A = area of falling object, C_d = drag coefficient), so: Under Rosharan gravity that would be ~170 km/h (belly-first) and ~250 km/h (head-first), since v_t ~ sqrt(g) If you also include the fact that Radiant in plate is roughly 4x as heavy as Radiant without, the speed doubles, so ~340 km/h belly first and 500km/h head-first, since v_t ~ sqrt(m). If the Radiant lashes themselves 4 times and not once, the speed doubles again, so ~680km/h belly-first and ~1000km/h head first, since v_t ~ sqrt(g). Even if they would be moving only 500km/h, they would cover 1 km in 7.2 seconds, since effective range of most Scadrian weapons is around ~500 meters at best, they would cover that in 3 seconds (if they had time to attain maximum velocity, which would be about ~5 seconds under 4 lashings). If they were starting from a stop, they would cover 500 meters in ~6.5 seconds under 4 lashings. That is speed of Radiant with gravity that takes into account air resistance and friction. They might want to wear goggles or helmet though to protect their eyes. It is described as urging them to move, when were they behaving recklessly? And most Radiants are handling that feeling just fine, like marching in formation even when full of stormlight or not using their abilities lest they reveal themselves. But 100 kg objects can be Lashed for minutes on relatively small (chip-sized) amount of Stormlight, so enough for combat applications. So I would not call it massive, but yes they do require more stormlight. Windrunners and Skybreakers can attack from distance (lash object in direction of enemy), as can Lightweavers and Elsecallers (soulcast). That is 4 out of 10. When they discover lasers (or just that concentrated enough light can set things on fire) you could add Truthwatchers to the list for every other Order having at least one ranged ability. I would argue that all order except Bondsmiths are combat focused, as they all get weapon and armor and they all get healing. Some are more support focused (Truthwatchers, Willshapers) but all can use their Surges in combat even if only to distract an enemy so that they can stab them. Even the 'non-combat' focused Radiants are much more useful in battle than non-combat metalborn (A-aluminum, A-gold, F-cadmiun, F-bendalloy for example). Conjoiners have nearly unlimited range (enough to get across the continent) and free standing suppresors seem to have field at least building sized. They have also started to systematically research fabrials and pool together their knowledge only in the last year, and still managed to create a device that crudely mimics lashing. With 10-15 more years we are bound to see some interesting stuff. Being above the Highstorm would be probably the only thing that would save them, the ship is made to be lighter than air so strong wind would move it easily. While the containers are designed to operate in Scadrial weather, Highstorm is something else (sustained winds of ~600 km/h at least). All the SoScad ships we have seen require F-iron device, even the one Suit uses to escape. When he gets on the ship one of his minions tells him they are currently priming the weight-changing device and that it is the last step in preparation, quote: Lift is also modified by Cultivation and is using Lifelight, and she still could use only one of her surges. By contrast Venli could her Radiant surges without an issue if she was powering it with Voidlight. And those suppresors were not fully converted yet, so were not working at full capacity. Metallic arts are from either one or two shards (Harmony/ Preservation and Ruin) so you need to block investiture of either one shard or two (if it is still sufficiently separate). And suppresor could block all the surges barring Adhesion (the one even Fused very worried about) and Progression (but seemingly only in Lift, who has touched by Cultivation), all Surges are very distinct abilities and yet they are all blocked, why would the metallic arts be different? There is never any talk about suppresor boosting another abilities, nor is there any evidence for that.

I think that is good summary of my position, although it might be the other option (i.e. they might be blocked from burning at all). Good point. I thought that Teft couldn't surgebind even after being awakened, but based on his comment in Chapter 91 (pg. 1000) he can use Adhesion as well, so I remembered wrong. So potentially other Windrunners could surgebind too, when awoken. I still think it might require them to be at least 3rd Oath, so that the spren is sufficiently tied to physical, but there no longer seems to be any good evidence for that. Although the fact that Surgebinding (even Adhesion) gets harder the more tower is corrupted (again Chapter 91, pg. 1000) suggest that the suppresors do work in degrees somewhat, and also maybe points against Adhesion being completely unaffected. Then there is the case of Progression and Lift, but Lift is a very weird case, so hard to draw conclusions from her. I could see it making it harder, so that you get less than you should. In fact since even Adhesion seems harder to do under suppresion and uses up more than usual, it sounds like a very natural way for feruchemy to be affected like that. Yeah, I feel like there should be some limits even to compounding (even if ridiculously high), and this is the only one at least tangentially supported (as it affected F-atium, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/131/#e3926) I did not mean to imply you are not, I just like to quote some things for completeness. And in case you would disagree with its meaning/applicability, at least I would know where we differ. Yeah, as far as I know in the books no one ever talks about storing qualitatively, only in terms of quantity. At least in Era 1 (I did not get to Era 2 in my re-read yet), Sazed never considers stores different because he was storing at different speed, slower storing is just treated as creating the stores slower, not as if they were 'worse' (i.e. would incur greater penalty when tapping fast).

They key difference is that metalborn are powered directly from the spiritual realm, whereas Radiants need to breathe in Stormlight which is already in physical (and is currently bound to Rosharan system). This means that so long as the metalborn has proper metal they can use their powers anywhere, since spiritual realm lacks time and space.

Ah, I see, personally I read it differently then. I guess to me Venli case precisely proves that you cannot cheat it easily, as you need another Shardic investiture to step in, even if you then use it to fuel same ability. So I would also expect any regal radiant to do what Venli did, but only because they can also use Voidlight, not because they can bypass suppresor. Usage of Honor's investiture is still blocked, but they have access to different fuel. Since allomancy is directly fueled from Spiritual, it would be very easy to disrupt like this, because another Shardic investiture has no way to enter the equation (unless hemalurgy or maybe F-nicrosil mind and some trickery). The reverse lashing thing is interesting, but if I remember correctly it was only Kaladin who exhibited that, and he was close to 4th Oath so closer to Honor? I would expect that lerasium mistborn, or something similarly strongly (or maybe more strongly) connected to Preservation might power through suppresor and use at least diminished versions of their abilities. In twinborn, if Feruchemy can work only with Ruin, I would expect Feruchemy to work and resonance as well, but allomancy to not work anymore. I don't think suppresor would suppress warlight, and I think to suppress feruchemy properly you might need either both Preservation and Ruin suppressors. However since those powers were separate in Era 1 and Feruchemy still worked properly (and there definitely was no merged investiture back then) I think suppressing only one would still interfere with proper feruchemy, as it might require power of both Shards to function properly. On Harmony and Intent I honestly don't know; on one hand we know that he wars with Intents of the two powers, but he would drop just one Shard and has only one godmetal, so they are quite merged already. As far as I know, we don't know You get something like 10 times as much back, but what exactly that means is difficult to say. I personally conceptualize it as ability*hours, so kg*hours for Iron, or (m/s)*hour for Steel, or something like Newton*hours for Pewter. Since in the books they always just comment on size of the store, not on its 'quality' I think it should work like this: storing 50% for 5 hours should get you the same store as storing 10% for 25 hours. So for example, if I stored 50% of strength for 5 hours, I would have something like (dont quote me on these numbers) 5000 Newton*hours, and that is what would get multiplied by 10, for 50000 Netwon*hours. Since per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) loss when tapping does not depend on storing speed, this would then agree with your reasoning on diminishing returns. The diminishing returns would appear when you stretch the physical aspect too far from its spiritual ideal in a sense. It also resolves the issue with what multiplies when compounding, making it moot point.

I would push back a bit at this, the situations in RoW where suppresors don't work are not minor things, but only things where another Shard is involved: Lift is not using stormlight like every other Radiant, but lifelight (Cultivation's investiture). So if suppresors are keyed to Honor's investiture, this won't be blocked (and she still has issues with one of her surges despite this). While Venli can breathe in stormlight, she cannot use it to actually power Surges, she needs to use Voidlight instead, so Odium's investiture. (RoW chapter 67) So from this it seems that single suppresor can block use of investiture of a given shard. For allomancy it should depend on how exactly it is fueled, Non-hemalurgic allomancy is fueled by Preservation, hence Preservation suppresor should be enough. Feruchemy seemingly involves both Preservation and Ruin to facilitate tapping/storing (as Ruin can interfere with coppermind memories in transit), and so might require two suppresors to fully stop. Hemalurgically granted abilites are fueled/powered by Ruin (I think), so you would need Ruin suppresor. Medallions use seemingly 'just' unsealed nicrosil-minds, so they should be fueled as non-hemalurgic power. (as it trick souls to think it has power it does not) So to stop or hinder most metalborn, I think you require just Preservation-keyed suppresor. In fact since Harmony has only one naturally occuring godmetal (as far as we know), it hints that Harmony might have only one associated kind of investiture at this point, so Harmony-suppresor might stop all metallic arts.

Yes, they animate the stone, not the soil. The fact that some soil might remain stuck on the stone does not mean they animate the soil as well, they don't animate the fungus or the moss. Souls of Thunderclasts are described as roughly the size of buildings (Oathbringer, chapter 115), so you would need a box at least building size. Net or cage would be insufficient, as they could simply pass through the gaps. The yes/no scenarios were @The Technovore 's not mine. Also that does not answer my question. On the last page you said that I am wrong about Fullborn defeating Radiant, and that it would be a toss up, literally saying this: So again, how is it that Fullborn vs Radiant is a toss up, but some twinborn can defeat Radiant of any order? Since Fullborn is all twinborn rolled up into one, they should be at least as strong as the most powerful twinborn, no?