therunner

In some ways they are late 18th century early 19th, like the medical science, germ theory etc. They are currently undergoing their equivalent of industiral revolution ("fabrial revolution")", industrial revolution was primarily motivated by move to quicker manufacturing, which is a much less of a factor on Roshar thanks to presence of Soulcasting. And it only got going in ~1820, not 1760. Lack of printing press has to do with cultural traditions of Vorinism, not to the limitations of their technology. Even in our world, some Arabic cultures did not adopt printing press until ~18th century, in Korea it took until late 19th century. Kandra having advanced medical knowledge does not mean Basin in general does. Kandra also know about radios, movies and investiture-energy conversion and Basin folk don't. And would you ask question about medical knowledge when you have bigger things to worry about and you trust the person? Dismissing fabrials as 'few fancy tools' is doing them disservice. You don't see Scadrial technology being dismissed as 'few fancy toys', and a lot of those they had to be guided to by Autonomy! I'd agree to say that they are an odd mix of early 16th till early 19th (rarely reaching to early 20th) depending on the particular field of science. And of course they are a powerhouse when it comes to fabrial based magi-tech (which in practice moves them easily to early 18th century), only challenged by Selish and Nalthians on that front (as far as we know). How many people can write in Basin? I don't think their literacy rates are all that great either. late 19th century literacy levels were around ~70-75% across the board (women had lower levels, men higher). And Roshar at least has religious traditions as an 'excuse'. And yet in principle anyone can become emperor in Azir. And Jasnah is planning large-scale reforms (though I doubt they would be successful), and she has 10 years to implement them. I am not sure if the people outside of Elendel who cannot vote for Elendel representation, yet are bound by its decrees (i.e. taxation on goods, where to build railways, etc.) feel they can actually vote. That is the whole reason for the political tension in Basin, they can vote de jure but de facto the vote matters very little. Elements of democracy already exists, what does not exist is universal suffrage. Which to be fair was quite radical concept in our world too (just look at when just men gained suffrage, not to mention women). Equality will be hard sell for religious reasons, but Radiants are already leading to erosion of that cultural tradition + you have Jasnah and her planned reforms (i.e. planning to abolish slavery for start). And what more rights should commoner have? Right to vote I expect, but what other rights are they missing, genuinely curious. I don't consider taxis mass transit, it is just personal car for hire, but fair enough. Railway industry in Basin is not that huge, is poorly designed (wheel and spoke concept, leading to political tensions) and we have no evidence it is cheap nor that trains go straight to factories or warehouses. Bilming was designed and funded by Autonomy and Set, and is considered the leading example of Outer cities, but good example. I would not consider New Seran gondolas for the same reason as taxis. Cars are not mass transit, and those are also definitely not cheap. And you could not do a lot of this on Roshar. Traintracks would have to be harded against superhurricane, and against crem buildup. Cars would require gasoline, which Roshar does not have. Scadrial could produce canned food for 300 years, Roshar can soulcast it on demand. All he has to do is try and Connect to the odd people in Highstorm, and voila, there is nothing to fight. See Vin/Elend taking over Kandra or Koloss, and Bondsmithing is tailor made tool for this. And if Roshar has no knowledge of Hemalurgy, I expect Scadrial to have little understanding of Surgebinding and Bondsmithing especially. On that we agree. We can easily restrict both to RoW timeline to eliminate speculation, that is the most straightforward solution. Result is Scadrial losing: machine guns, grenade launchers, advanced artillery, AA-guns, rockets, H-T bombs, access to medallions (if we don't consider united planets), radios, cars, electric lights, telegraphs. Also army in Elendel was only started being taken seriously in response to existence of Malwish, so 10 years prior to TLM they don't even have those 10 000 trained soldiers they have now. And some have already engaged in speculation of progress on Scadrial, such as miniaturizing H-T bombs to fit on rockets, figuring out easy way to scale them and set them up, dissemination of Hemalurgy, mass production of Aluminum and aluminum made weaponry and ammunition, etc. Twinborn are limited because they must be born, and the incidence we are seeing is something like 1 in a 500 000(which roughly works out, since Mistings are ~1 in 100, Ferrings 1 in 1000, and the genes typically interfere with one another). So you will typically have something like 20-50 Twinborn in the entire basin, if we are being very generous. And that is across all ages, and across all 256 Twinborn combinations. Conversely Radiants are made not born, and since rediscovery of Radiancy some 6 years in past there are already 2 of them (and there would be 3 if not for Moash). This is while a lot of spren refuse to bond, creating artificial bottleneck. Historically we know that even 4th Oaths numbered in hundreds (across all orders) and that was when population of both human and spren was much lower. Ok, there is at most 0-1 pewter compounders, since they have to be born. And that is not how Pewter Compounding works, you compound the feruchemical attribute, not Allomantic one. All they would get from Pewter compounding is increased amount of muscle (like we see from Sazed in WoA ch 13), and that would quickly lead to them being immobile Sazed was already reaching limits and he is just Feruchemist. So even at his best you would get someone who is ~15x stronger than usual (5x from tapping Pewter, and 3x of that from Flaring) while still staying mostly mobile. Shardplate provides greater strength than that. Yep, steel compounders are a big problem. In the last thread giving people spikes to turn them into them was one of the few ways to challenge Radiant in plate. Again though, there is only 1 if even that. They are still susceptible to Surges (e.g. Reverse Lashing or Adhesion), they cannot fly (so anyone in air is mostly safe), and their powers could be in principle blocked by suppresor fabrial (thought that would require experimentation to set up properly). Also, their speed is not infinite, they are limited to lower Mach speeds unless they want to die (friction and whatnot). But you could resolve that with a bunch of spikes, unless you are worried about Bondsmith. If every Scadrian soldier knows proper Bind points for Spren and also can do it on the fly on battlefield (the only examples of on the fly spiking were guided by Ruin directly), then I guess Roshar at minimum knows how to use Bondsmithing to take over people with Spikes. Kolos will be taken over by Bondsmith, point for Roshar. Mistings/Ferrings are at best equal to 2nd Oath Radiant and most not even that. 3rd Oath Windrunner beats Mistborn in combat (there are WoBs). Scadrial cannot yet mass produce aluminum nor aluminum alloys. Pewterarm in aluminum armor is still weak to boulder to the face, or being poisoned, drowned, set on fire, trapped underground etc. And they are far weaker than Radiant in plate, Pewter 3x strength at most, Plate is circa 20x . Coinshot and Lurchers are rendered limited by 1) Reverse Lashings 2) Attractor/repulsor fabrials. We don't know seekers could find Lightweavers who are tryinig to hide. Copperclouds affect Spren, but don't necessarily hinder them, so disruption is over-statement. You will give them powers of Wax not his skill, or shall we say that all Windrunners are Kaladin since they share powers? There is not enough gold ferrings to spike all pewterarms, but still you could do it at least for some. Still would leave them inferior in healing to Radiants with lot of Stormlight. Soother and Rioters are rendered in-effective by aluminum helments, which Roshar could produce easily thanks to Soulcasting. And Roshar does now know Aluminum blocks Investiture (thanks to events of Dawnshard). Bullets have to be manufactured and transported to battle, Stormlight does not (if on Roshar). And Scadrial has population at least 10-20x times smaller, numbers are still relevant factor. So Scadrial can send in only individual people, not heavy machinery which is their primary advantage? And again, Twinborn are incredibly rare and each would have different powers not necessarily suitable for mission, definitely not 1000, you would be glad to get 2-3. If you want 1000 mistings/ferrings each with 5 powers through Spikes, you need to kill 4000 people, which is ~1/5 of all Metalborn in the Basin. Most likely you would not be able to get enough appropriate spikes. Also, soul now have limits to powers it can hold. Since you cannot spike more in, medallion would most likely not work either (see Kelsier and his issues). So you are still limited to 5 powers at most, which would it be? Duralumin compounder coudl take over hemalurgic constructs (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/356-worldcon-76/#e10524) and spikes in general open even regular people to control and manipulation. And Bondsmiths are the masters of Connection manipulation in Cosmere. Add in that Dalinar is bonded to (and represents) remnant of Shard, he has all he needs to take them over. Eh, most people are far better off than slaves, what are you talking about? And democratic revolutions are basically a thing only in the last 200 years, not something that was happening in 'every human society'. Your plan of attack ignored a lot about Roshar, Scadrial and the Invested powers involved. There is a lot of trade going on in Shadesmar, and guns are not Scadrian only invention. They could trade with them sure, depending on what they would offer. The only rare goods Scadrial has is their tech right now, and they would probably not want to part with that. If you take a look, both me and @Ookla the Frustrated. bring up Fused and Singers only in response to Scadrial working united. And Scadrial has 4-5 factions: Elendel, Outer Cities, Roughs, Malwish, Maskless. Roshar has: Coalition, Odium's forces, Shin, Independent Singers, Unaligned spren (who might join Coalition or Independent Singers following RoW revelations), unaligned countries. That looks comparable to me. And similarly, Malwish seem to despise Basin, Outer Cities hate Elendel, Roughs don't care and Maskless are in conflict with Malwish. Hardly a happy family either. So we can continue to consider only Coalition vs Basin, and ignore most of other players, or we can consider united planets for simplicity.

Mere 1000 breaths and something special (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10871) and possibly even Dawnshard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e16006). Note that Azure's blade is less powerful then regular Shardblades + is generally limited like deadblades are. We don't actually know yet how Invested Breaths are, so not sure why you are so confident.

The TLDR of your reply. First of all, a bit rude. Second, wrong TLDR so you clearly did not bother to actually read it. It does fit my answer to the first part of your post (Roshar -> Scadrial), but not the second part where your analysis of Scadrial to Roshar invasion relied on gross mis-characterization of capabilities and of the situation. So, to save you time, here is actual TLDR of my reply to your proposed scenario of Scadrial to Roshar invasion: Scadrial is unable to get off world in larger numbers due to only one perpendicularity, lack of ability to establish supply lines, and lack of ability to actually get to Roshar (Cultivation perpendicularity is underwater). Your idea for twinborn strike team upgraded with spikes stealing Honorblades requires them to have information nearly no one even on Roshar has, and opens them up for quick subversion by a Bondsmith (and Dalinar could do it safely from anywhere, if they step into Highstorm). So basically, not really functional plan. Culturally Roshar is diverse, with Alethkar most traditional in many ways. Some countries have elected leadership, so Scadrial propaganda does not necessarily suggests things they don't already know (+ you have cultural and religious traditions to get over). Technologically Roshar is not barely past bronze age, they are comfortably 18th century (outside of guns and associated tech). See vacuum tubes, advanced mathematics, ships etc. Scadrial has little to offer them, since a lot of fabrial tech is comparable or even better to electricity powered tech of Scadrial. Scadrial has never encountered anything like Highstorm or Everstorm, which would hinder them quite heavily. TLDR2: Your scenario which you finished by saying literally cannot work unless you ignore a lot fact about both Scadrial and Roshar.

But that is still detecting difference in usage not in location. I am saying that you cannot use Bronze as a 'investiture detector' and be able to tell "pouches with spheres are by his left thigh", we never see anything of the sort. Or the bullets are relatively slow. Still compression factors of bendalloy bubbles are wildly inconsistent if we take feats into account, ranging from 8-11x (AoL statements) to 40x (bullets) and possibly up to 10000x (explosion) compression, which makes no sense considering that as described the compression should be always the roughly the same at it takes savantism to push it more, and flaring does not result in such large differences in other metals. Bottom line is, we have a direct statement on typical factor from AoL and that is 2 minutes compressed to 15 seconds, i.e. 8x compression. That is literally directly stated in the books. Fair point on speed of light, I mixed up units and orders.

The WoB only says it would be harder, not that it is not possible. Additonally, the connections in the spiritweb are there for Radiant (their spiritweb is connected to spren) not for Mistborn (as far as we know), so the second part applies to Radiants only. Well, it is easier, but you need to keep track of them. Plus, directly soulcasting mistborn (or just clothing of Mistborn) is not something you can avoid by dodging, there is nothing to dodge. Thinking about it, Soulcasting just clothing of mistborn to e.g. aluminum would be a good option to hinder their mobility. And the clothing is neither invested, nor constantly changing around (like flowing air would), so it should not be difficult to target. Ok thank you for correction. Still then, it is noted that Lightweavers and Elsecallers approach the Surge differently (RoW ch 26), so she is not an ideal teacher for them.

We do that since Roshar has 10 more years to progress. Scadrial 10 years before TLM did not have for example: grenade launchers, machine guns, artillery, rockets, radio, card, electric lights, skyscrapers. 10 years can do a lot . And giving Roshar ability to get spren and light off-world is pretty much the only major concession. That is it, just ability to move Investiture off-world. The rest is that fabrials they already have will become more wide-spread and a bit more advanced (i.e. more Fourth Bridges which are also more efficient to move around). Direct Shard intervention is typically considered out-of-scope. And the Shard they do have is limited enough that Avatar was sufficient to block it (seemingly). If we do allow Shards, well, Roshar has 2-3, and they are less restricted. Until he runs out of metal to burn, then he is toast. I.e. he has what minutes? He refuels with steel pretty regularly in combat, and every time he has to do that he has to stop. One stray arrow at bad moment and Wax is down. Additionally there is no such things as pure steel, it is an alloy, and allomantically viable steel needs precise ratios of the iron and carbon to be viable. There are more nations than just Alethkar, and some do specialize in trade and organization, so those could organize supply lines. Specialization is useful. And they could still soulcast food on Roshar and then just transport it, so no need for farmers, only for organizing supply lines. The bigger issue would be lack of means to transfer in/out of Cognitive, and general lack of 'special forces' (Radiants, forces with fabrials, etc.) You have mistaken idea of Roshar, they are not 'slightly past bronze age', they are comfortably at late 18th early 19th century science (they can make vacuum tubes, have germ theory and generally more advanced medical science than Scadrial, advanced mathematics, nautical skills, can alloy steel, etc.) and behind in others (mainly lack of guns and gunpowder) Sure, a lot of their more advanced tech is driven by fabrials, but that is just a different field of science there. If we restrict Roshar to truly be unable to take anything stormlight powered-off world, then sure Roshar cannot really invade. At that point industrial espionage is their best bet (i.e. trade a bunch of gems or soulcast aluminum for a bunch of guns and schematics), and start playing catch-up. E.g. your Wax vs spearman example, Wax could kill as many as he has bullets + how much metal he has. He would not be able to kill off entire army by himself. Scadrial barely repealed invasion from off-world, and only because they 'closed the gate' so to speak. And I would think that Fused also cannot leave Rosharan system, they are Cognitive shadows, so restricted similarly to Kelsier, who also cannot leave. Scadrian magic, while working everywhere, still needs specifically prepared resources to use. You cannot just grab piece of Iron and use it as fuel, for metals they need to be pure enough, and for alloys it needs to have precise ratios of compounds. While Scadrial outclasses Roshar in physical tech, they are unable to get it off-world easily for following reasons: Scadrial has only single perpendicularity, somewhere in mountains (so difficult to access). Perpendicularity is not wormhole, you cannot really build tracks through it (as far as I know), so transporting items through would be time consuming. Perpendicularity is too small to fit e.g. boats or planes, or even larger trucks. Finally, CR on Scadrial consists of Mists and the only way to move around requires Invested items to float on. Considering how small typically metalminds are (bracelets, earrings, rings, etc.) Investing a single boat hull would take years if not longer. I.e. Scadrial cannot really get off-world in any appreciable numbers, or get their heavier tech off-world at all. Additionally, CR on Roshar is full of spren, who would notify their allies of any invasion, and would start fighting back (which would have effect on lower spren). If you consider united planets (not entirely sure based on your text), then Fused would also fight against them there + there would be Unmade in Shadesmare as well. Finally, Cultivation perpendicularity is underwater, which would also make it a poor location to start Invasion from, and basically impossible to get any heavy equipment through. So full-scale Invasion is basically also impossible for Scadrial. Sure Hemalurgy is on the table. Few notes: Twinborn are vanishingly rare (we have seen 3 across the entire Era 2, and 2 died), so your strike team starts as Mistings or Ferrings. They can get up-to 4 spikes I would assume (based on what we have seen from Set), so they can have 5 powers in total. I'd assume you would go for A-pewter, A-Steel, F-gold, F-steel and maybe F-duralumin (so they can speak the language?) or A-duralumin. They cannot compound, so they would require some months to build up stores of health and especially speed. Thanks to spikes this strike force would be easily controlled through Connection. So Ishar, Dalinar and Navani could simply seize them and take control of them. Dalinar could do it especially easily and safely while they would be in Highstorm (he would not have to be physically close to them). So the strike team cannot ever be caught in Highstorm, as they would be immediately turned. Also, even with Honorblades and other powers, any Radiant in plate would be able to easily dispatch them, as they lack the tools to easily get through it. I don't think Hemalurgy could permanently kill Fused, maybe if you spiked the part that is giving them their link to Odium? But if they were Invested at the moment they would most likely just heal the damage to soul. Also, Hemalurgy is complicated and Scadrial barely knows how it works on humans after 3 centuries. Fused are different species and cognitive shadows on top of that, their bind points would be most likely very different. Also how do they know the Honorblades are in Shinovar? Basically no one on Roshar knows that outside of some Shin. I would note that subterfuge and propaganda are tools Roshar could employ also, if they attempted to invade Scadrial even without powers. Also, your strike team (if not already turned on side of Roshar) would not be able to touch either of the Ishar, Nale or Taln. Ishar could convert them (he has his blade) Nale has plate Taln is..well, Taln. (and does not in fact have his Honorblade, its location is unknown at the moment). Heralds are ridiculously powerful, even now when Honor is dead and they don't have direct supply line of Stormlight. Just read their reaction times, they often move and react as if they had atium (I am not saying they do, just that their fighting style is comparable). Another misconception about Roshar, common folk are not 'little better than slaves'. Dahn and nahn system is basically hereditary nobility, except mainly along the lines of eye color not just bloodlines. But in practice if you are rich enough it does not matter as much, and lowest dahns can be in practice outranked by higher nahns. And most of this is from Alethkar, which is in many ways worse than other countries, and even there vast majority have right to free travel and right to free education. Thaylenah is for example elective monarchy, and don't have nobility along the lines of eye color. Let us not kid ourselves that Scadrian is that much better, Basin is basically ruled by a combination of 1. Scions of noble houses from Final Empire (like dear Wax) 2. Rich people. Over half of Basin feels strongly that they are not properly represented by their government. Scadrial does not have mass transit (only few train lines, and I doubt those are cheap). Roshar already has stable food and water supply, so not much Scadrial can offer there. Roshar is also under going their equivalent of Industrial revolution, e.g. use of heating fabrials is spreading. They already use spheres for light and have spanreeds for long-distance communication, so electricity does not have much to offer them yet. And you forget people fear unknown, even on Scadrial a lot of people are wary of the electricity and other advances. And you are forgetting the influence of religion on any cultural changes. Scadrial has much better chance, if you ignore all the transport issues they would face, presence of spren in Shadesmar notifying Roshar of invasion (and starting to fight it off), the fact that strike team would be easily subverted (and would still be weaker than Radiant in plate), the cultural differences and the fact that Roshar is much more advanced then you give them credit for. Also there are two hurricane level storms moving around the planet every ~10 days, Scadrial is not really used to handling that. I would phrase it that there are people who realize just how powerful Radiants are, and that if they can get off-world in larger numbers Scadrial does not really have answer against them.

Yeah, and we have not yet seen her in combat after this realization did we? Mental block still meant that she was (and maybe still is) sub-par in her actual practice of Soulcasting. Everything we have seen Shallan do with Soulcasting was with this mental block, and she was trying to teach people while also having this mental block. I.e. we had very-sub par practitioner trying to teach people how do Soulcast (as apparently Lightweavers approach it differently) Effectively this is the same as if we had only seen Mistborn with fear of heights who is not using his steel/iron properly, and used them as an example of how steel/iron are not useful mobility options. We should not treat personal limitation as limitation of the ability in general. Food is also much more complicated (multiple compounds, ratios of them, combination of solid and liquid, etc.) I would expect making a block of solid stone or metal to be 'easier', if more Investiture intensive (depending on size) Similarly, Lightweaver would have no trouble getting hold of very well cut gems full of Stormlight. They have unique skillset that would be in-demand + are part of effectively nobility. Lightweaver would also keep a lot of backup spheres on them + bunch of small gemstones to tie Illusions to. Also, what Mistborn metalminds? As far as we know no one in Basin knows how to refill Medallions, and grenades are of limited use. Edit: (posted before finishing :/ ) Or it means that Lightweaver soulcast Mistborn directly, that would also stop them moving (if transformed into stone).

Bronze can be fine tuned in the sense it can differentiate different pulses (pushing/pulling, different surges, different 'intents' of kinetic investiture), there is nothing to suggest it is suitable for detecting milimeter sized gemstone against a background, especially when both would give of the same pulse (one of Stormlight). So far the smallest thing Bronze has been shown to detect are people, which are ~1000x larger. (please correct me if I am wrong on this) We don't know what kind of explosive it was as far as a I am aware. It could have been something with much slower explosion. Admittedly, shockwaves typically move at ~1000 m/s (order-wise), so for what has happened in AoL Wayne would have to have compressed time by a factor of 10000 at minimum, at which point it would start affecting light. However at the same time, same regular bendalloy bubble canceled Bleeder's speed in SoS (as in, Bleeder perceived from inside the bubble moved at regular speed), and she was definitely not moving at ~3% of speed of light, that is ridiculously beyond even Steel compounders. Also, the 11x factor comes directly from AoL (cannot find direct quote now), however Coppermind quotes AoL as bendalloy compressing ~2 minutes into 15 second, giving even worse compression factor. So I would chalk up the explosion to (out of world) Brandon not really realizing just how bloody fast they are. In world, the bomb was a dud? There is really no consistent explanation.

I don't think Mistborn would be able to use Bronze like that. They would feel pulses coming from the person in general (since they hold Stormlight), + same pulses from spheres from the same direction. Not sure how they would be able to differentiate that more exactly, we have never seen Bronze used in such fine manner. That is the number we have been shown on screen for bendalloy (in SoS I think), and Cadmium and bendalloy effectively cancel each other out, so Cadmium slows down time 11x. You could probably flare for a bit more, but based on WoBs it would not be that much of a change. Also, if the Skybreaker would be moving at even half that speed (~ 100 mph), they would still cross the barrier in less then a second (they would be moving circa ~4m/s, and the layer between bubbles would definitely be less then a meter)

Actually, Shallan is only better at Illusions, in RoW she mentions that other Lightweavers are better at Soulcasting then she is, despite being of lower Oaths. So, when it comes to Soulcasting Shallan is an example of below average Lightweaver. Shallan, below average at Soulcasting, and not yet knowing what is going on was able to use it when stressed out to make a hole in the hull of a ship. Not bad for being under pressure and not begin practiced with her abilities.

And same goes for leeching, it is not instantaneous. So question is, will Mistborns hand burn off sooner then leeching? Or can Mistborn even maintain leech while their hands are effectively on fire from the inside out? Pewter helps with pain, but there is pain of getting hit, and pain because your hands are literally disintegrating. Fair enough, though still it depends on circumstances quite a bit; Mistborn, plate and Skybreaker must align and for some reason Skybreaker won't react quickly enough to slap it aside either by hand or by blade. Vasher has multiple centuries of experience, he is in completely different league of skill than any Mistborn, arguably closer to Herald in skill, then human. On top of that he is heavily Invested (Divine breath + regular breaths). And Kaladin was not fighting to kill, so there is also that. Regular swords casually move at 20 m/s (the cutting part near tip), Shardblades are longer (so ends are moving faster) and lighter (so again they are moving faster), you are asking Mistborn to plant a coin on a thing about a size of human hand that is moving at ~30 m/s or more. I sincerely doubt that they could do that without atium.

Thanks for those quotes, so Division shield not really a possibility. Still leaves higher mobility as good defense, and grants better offense. Division still works the same way, I think creating 'masterful relief' will take longer than just 'burn this hand/fingers off', one requires care and precision, the other just brute force. Bottom line is Mistborn touching Skybreaker is now very risky, as Skybreaker can not only stab them, but can directly destroy their hands. It only depends on who is faster with activating their powers on the opponent. I don't think that would work out (the reaching out part), but it would work to quickly reposition far close to Skybreaker than they would expect. Wonder how much experience it would take, as I don't think the bubbles are always exactly the same size, and Wayne was not pulling stunts like this (despite this tactic being useful to him too, giving him at least one free hit). What metal plate? Where did that appear, and why is the Skybreaker not breaking it up with division? Also that would be relatively easy to dodge, Skybreakers are still very mobile and agile. Coin into blade won't work well (or basically at all): If Skybreaker angles the blade or moves it at any angle to the force, the coin slips. If the blade is dismissed the coin slips if the blade shapeshifts, the coin slips. And since Mistborn must maintain push on the coin to keep it there, they would suddenly lose anchor, bringing them off-balance. Not exactly good tactic.

Does that also work the other way around, if Scadrial gets it so does Roshar? Because completely handwaving the difficulties is not how discussion can progress. That was years of Metalborn in the same place + a lot of unkeyed Investiture (they basically built a Shardpool) and there was involvement of a Shard. Not something Scadrial can replicate. Currently the discussion is around fight on neutral third world I think? And for going to Scadrial, they can easily cross until Scadrian Shadesmar, and then either stick to land or use their easier access to Investiture to make floating platforms/boats. (predicated as always on Bondsmith figuring out the Connection hack to get Stormlight/spren off-world). Wax would die the moment he would have to re-load, or runs out of metals. Just Alethi army was over 100 000 strong, entire Rosharan army would number in like a million. Wax most certainly cannot carry even 10 000 bullets, at best he could have maybe a thousand or something like that. Even if there were no Radiants in the army, he would die before making a dent. They can produce enough bullets, but individual soldier won't carry more than a couple of hundreds at most and has to re-load every few dozens (depending on the weapon type). And Roshar has their own ranged option (bows) which while far less deadly, can kill just the same.

While that could be the case (and in interesting idea!), we also know that Copperclouds can be pierced and it is not that Investiture intensive. Combined with the facts that Scadrial is comparatively low-Investiture world, so Lightweaver has more power available. Soulcasters can change people, which would present more difficulty than Coppercloud barrier. Soulcasters are used to dealing with resistance (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681) I would say that while Coppercloud could make it a bit more difficult to soulcast things inside, it would not be that strong an effect and it would mainly make the soulcasting more Stormlight intensive. Personally here I think Mistborn does have an advantage if they keep moving (soulcasting massive rock around head is difficult if the air you want to soulcast keeps changing). One interaction that could possibly change it is if Lightweaving would allow you to mimic the bronze pulses, because if so, bronze would become useless and Illusions would not be identifiable for Mistborn, granting Lightweaver decent defense option. They can do sound (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9287) so other types of 'waves' (Investiture pulses) could be accessible to them as well. On that topic, could Ligthweaving create fake steelsight lines? (if they knew about them, and how they look) The reason is that per this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13218) there are both Cognitive and Spiritual components to Lightweaving, so maybe it could work for that as well? (thought that would most likely require extraordinary talent or a lot of practice)

So, I'd say Skybreaker wins, as they have the same (or nearly so) mobility advantage of Windrunner. They have worse defense (no reverse lashing), but superior offense (Division). Because of Division Mistborn cannot really afford to try leeching, because both of those powers are touch based, but Division can also spread from the point of contact + if air can be affected they could have small layer as defense. So, Skybreaker looses a bit of defense (but hitting a moving target is still difficult), and Mistborn looses one of their best (and only) offense options. I would say Mistborn comes out of this even worse then against Windrunners, and there they already typically lose on battlefield. Gravitation can still replicate everything Mistborn can do (place multiple Lashings and quickly cancel them to imitate burst of speed, or use multiple partial lashings to imitate more small sources), and also do more things, so Skybreakers have advantage everywhere in mobility when it comes to flight.

I mean, no one is proposing Radiants go full Anakin? We just said that destroying ammo/gun factories does not interfere with Oaths, and that possibly Radiants who would have issues could first ask workers to leave. No one is saying Radiants would land there and start indiscriminately killing everyone. On my end I was just pointing out that factories supplying guns and ammo (the source of main Scadrian advantage) are going to be vulnerable, since they cannot effectively isolate them. You disputed that pointing at Oaths, we disproved that (I think). Speaking for myself I did not really see the discussion getting emotional. And also again, the workers can leave, so their unnecessary death would be through their choices as well. Factories creating guns/ammo are universally agreed to be completely valid targets, nearly on par with regular military installations, they are not really civilian target. I think arguing morality of such action would not really get us anywhere, as moral standpoints can be quite subjective (e.g. see just Kaladin vs Lirin and their whole conflict in RoW), so I would rather refrain from such discussion, as I feel those would definitely get emotionally charged. Edit: The single note on morality I will make is that even in our world Geneva Convention (which I think is pretty decent from moral standpoint) only guarantees protection for civilians who "... perform no work of a military character ", which I would argue does not include work in war factories ,as those directly enable war effort. On a "funnier" note, in the last thread post RoW, the most horrifying proposal was using Hemalurgy to turn Mistings unsuitable for warfare into factories for spikes (using Gold compounding). That was...well..horrifying, if efficient (in Dwarf Fortress sense). I don't think they would have even those honestly, they don't really have much reason to develop them yet. Their major enemies (Fused, Thunderclasts) require either massive damage, or attacking souls, both of which early guns would be unable to provide. After encountering Scadrians and their equipment they would start research in that direction, and primitive weapons using repulsive fabrials (since there are attractive there should be repulsive) could be created relatively fast, though how strong and efficient those would be I have no idea.

Yeah, I agree with the Intent being necessary. I think I misunderstood what you were saying by that part, sorry about that.

But she only reacted to Zane, well, to Zane's reaction to her Atium shadow, but it was still Zane she reacted to. And I would say that thinking or not about it should not make a difference, if Atium shows future, because it does not matter what she is thinking in the moment, what matters what she will be thinking that 1 or 2 seconds in the future. Atium-burners react to Atium shadows all the time, and yet other's don't split their shadows when reacting to them. That Intent part would kind-of patch it for me, Intent and perception can change stuff (i.e. Wax splitting bullet into 3 lines). But again (referring to part I bolded), Atium-burners movements provide that information all the time as they react to shadows all the time, and yet this was the only instance of atium shadow splitting we know of.

I think if Odium would be released, Regals could leave (and so could Fused, maybe even enlightened Radiants?). He did plan on using surgebinder army to conquer and attack other planets, so there should be a way.

I have been kind-of following, however this is where I am confused. We know that future in Cosmere is not set in stone, even Shards cannot see it definitely. So Atium cannot show you future with 100% probability of happening in principle. However, since per the quotes @Treamayne it shows only 1-2 seconds ahead, the future is nearly certain, unless someone else sees it. But, Atium cannot include opponents reactions to your actions, otherwise Vin's trick would not work, all she did was react to Zane, so if Atium includes opponents reaction to Atium-burners actions, it should have shown him just one trajectory of hers. If it cannot include reactions, then change in behavior due to Atium should cause unpredictable reactions semi-regularly. Not sure how to reconcile points 2. and 3. , that is the moment were I get confused. @Treamayne thanks for the quotes, put in one place like this they kind of make it seem like the Mistborn/Misting is puppeted around by the Atium, where the reflexes are timed just right, without conscious decision on the part of the person burning. Plus it clarifies that it is sort-of-like seeing an interval of time, not just a present moment, but full interval of 1-2 seconds in a certain radius.

If they make weapons they are enemies, unless they are there against their will. If they are allowed to leave the factory, and they choose to stay to defend it, that is responsibility of the workers. The 2nd Oath is not "I will protect innocents". The workers can protect themselves, they can flee. Windrunner would try to minimize the losses sure, but they are still among the more militaristic orders, and were known for special operations, so the mission would still take priority. Some Windrunners might personally not like it, but it does not go against the Oaths. Additionally, 4th Oath Windrunner would be even more ok, as the Oath is literally about accepting there are limits to who you can protect.

Well Stormlight is mostly limited by how much Stormlight is available. It is possible that for the extreme feats (i.e. regrow entire body from only a piece of brain) you would require ridiculous amount of Stormlight, which would somehow have to be infusing the tissue further complicating the matters. But Kaladin was taking in Stormlight even when unconscious and breathing in is not strictly necessary, so if the spiritweb and cognitive aspects were still available, and the process got kickstarted it could work. That is the advantage of gold compounding over Stormlight, it pulls Investiture directly from Spiritual realm, or you can tap metalminds at large factors (though burning would be more efficient). So while Stormlight healing could get there, typically there is not enough of it for the most extreme feats. But regrowing head is relatively 'minor', it does regularly heal wounds to spiritweb, which are difficult to heal otherwise. Healing on Nalthis is arguably the most powerful but the most limited, using Divine Breath allows to heal anything (withing general Cosmere rules) and instantly (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9623). Of course the cost is high. I'd put it as Hoid >= Divine Breath > Gold-compounding >= Radiant Stormlight healing (equality conditional on amount of Stormlight) > Regrowth > Honorblade healing >= Gold healing (usual stores available) >>>>>> Pewter Edit: Of course the problem is that compounded gold is 'just' F-gold with large stores, so basically F-gold and Stormlight can move around on the scale, depending on the amount of stores. If you gave Wayne all the Miles' metalminds (and they were somehow Unkeyed) he would suddenly be on level of compounder. That was because he most likely had some metalminds implanted, which they obviously would not be able to remove + savantism. I would say Shallan (or any Radiant really) could do exactly the same, if they had enough Stormlight available. I think if the person already had Stormlight in them, the healing would start and then the process would continue to absorb ambient Stormlight (if there was any). I think the key there is Intent to absorb stormlight, and since it is gas the most natural way to absorb it by breathing, but I don't think it would be strictly necessary. While I think regrowing the brain is something Stormlight could do, I do agree that healing smashed head would take too long and give Mistborn free pass to leech them. I mean, if it the head healed in 5 seconds, that is still 5 seconds when Mistborn can do whatever they want, and in combat that is eternity.

Exactly, Stormlight healing is passive effect and does not require conscious thought to work (or brain then). Stormlight healing is exactly as good as F-gold, and so as compounded gold (only difference between the two is amount of Investiture available) as stated before, WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6336) and WoB on Radiants healing nearly anything (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788) + WoB on extreme forms of healing not caring what is going on with the physical body (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3535). Of course for Radiant the limitation is that there must be body to hold the Stormlight, but just removing head seems within scope of healing if enough Investiture is available to them. But it would take time, which Mistborn could use for leeching them for example. Also Progression surge is inferior to just Stormlight healing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/451-tor-instagram-livestream/#e14448), at least when applied to other people. But since Regrowth can heal people dying (see Szeth), so can Stormlight healing of Radiant.

Workers can leave. If Windrunners give them warning, and they decide to stay, it is up to them, not the Windrunners. 3rd Oath does not mean you cannot kill enemies. No Windrunner outside of Kaladin seemed to have his issues about fighting and killing enemies (and note that in Oathbringer that was Kaladin issue, not Oath itself), and factory producing weapons is valid military target and workers are willingly helping combatants. If the workers are forced to be there, well, kill their guards and recruit them to your side. And even if all Windrunners interpret their Oaths as extremely as Kaladin, well they can just carry e.g. Stonewards who could destroy it, or regular troops with anti-Investiture grenades (if those are developed by then). Edit: From the statement that Malwish are being very stingy with them, and don't like sharing their technology with Basin? Marasi seems to be getting her only thanks to Alik, not through some official trade. I have read TLM only once, so please correct me on this.

I know this war partially discussed, but I would point out that typically in our world factories that could supply soldiers needed to be located somewhere enemy could not strike (i.e. US during WW2, deep behind lines during WW1). Mechanized warfare is heavily reliant on production capabilities. And since Roshar has air superiority (Windrunners) and can strike anywhere in the Basin (again Windrunners) Scadrial has virtually no safe locations for placing their factories. And setting up a factory is far harder then destroying it. (I acknowledge that here we differ whether or not Windrunners would/could participate in such sabotage, thought war-materiel factories should be actionable by them I think). The only safe place I can think of are the caverns, similar to what Set had, those would be reasonably protected against air-strikes and infiltration. The question would then move to supply lines, as those factories have to get their supplies out in reasonable numbers.