Kyn

It makes sense to think of this warmth being created/instigated by a person (or at least an entity). Especially in a universe with the Shards and emotion spren. But what if it’s just a force/concept, perhaps not even something with as much reality as an actual Unity Dawnshard, but just like the idea of Connection itself? How would it change the way we have to consider the issue if this is something built into the fabric of the Cosmere but not currently embodied or connected to a will? Would it then likely be something seeking its own avatar of sorts, and perhaps that’s why it gravitates toward Dalinar, as a Bondsmith devoted to the Unity so close to connection? Or would it just be something (else) that “lives in the hearts of men” (people of all kinds), and thus appears à la Kingdom Hearts whenever an emotional or spiritual connection is made between the hearts of men? I mean, that would still make sense given the appearance of this warmth in (or through memories of) some of Dalinar’s emotionally-fulfilled or -connected moments. I’m not sure how much of a difference it would make, though. What changes with knowing whether it was an amorphous concept of human Connections that might want someone to act on its behalf, a leftover missing component of Adonalsium seeking to restore the unification of the shards, the Beyond itself or the God Beyond striving to link all the realms, or even a potential Unite Dawnshard that is a Command holding a key to reality? I’m actually asking, because I can’t extrapolate in what different directions those differences would drive the story.

I saw the quote further up in the thread, but it doesn’t answer my question. Just because Amaram spent hours deciding and went with what Restares told him doesn’t mean Kalak was there or actually involved in the decision-making. I mean, if someone said “my mom was right” after discussing with their spouse how to discipline their kids for something, we wouldn’t assume their mom was involved in the discussion or knew about the incident in question. I was wondering if I missed a reference telling us Kalak was personally involved in this particular decision?

The Knights Radiant are basically embodiments of the recognition that concessions to reality must be made and that things must be viewed with nuance and from different perspectives. Since the Radiant Ideals are about acting on or living their Ideals, about enacting these Ideals in the real world rather than simply imagining or believing them, I don’t think the form of idealism that is limited to a nonexistent, imagined perfection is something the Radiants could subscribe to. The nature of their oaths requires them to make concessions to reality and accept and implement imperfect solutions. No belief system can be implemented absent realism, only envisioned. And to see the world as something perfect that it explicitly is not is to blind oneself and remove any ability to make the actual world better – which goes against the First Ideal. That kind of idealism would not enable, nor even permit, defending life, protecting the weak, or the utterly-realism-based path of determining the most just available means of achieving a goal. Since each Knights Radiant Order is a distinct vision of what ideals are best and how they should be implemented, they epitomize how realism is necessary for moving idealism in theory into Ideals in action.

I was assuming what Amaram acted on was more of a standing order (claim all Shards at any cost, even if it means killing those not worthy of having them) from Kalak than a direct order. Did we get evidence that Kalak was sufficiently involved (or even present) to have been consulted about the case of Kaladin and his men in particular?

You’ve got a good point. That one might just be Wax, who has reason to believe in the reality of the god he follows, struggling to understand a less-religious person ascribing things like fate and chance to the rules and vagaries of an impartial universe instead of to the intercession of a sentient and powerful godly being. It could be more a disconnect due to his faith than an inability to understand the terminology. In a world that’s becoming increasingly technologically- and scientifically-advanced, it actually wouldn’t be surprising that someone like Wax would be the odd one out, as a believer amongst people (his non-Wayne companions, not necessarily his society) inclined to trust reason and observation/experience. On that note, though, it seems like “Cosmere” has two distinct usages in-text – either the Cosmere as we tend to speak of it, a thematic/diegetic entity, or the universe (all of reality) they all live in. In RoW we get evidence that Roshar is not so limited in their knowledge that they only think of their planet, so we can safely assume they aren’t thinking of reality as only their world, whatever cosmic soup it exists in, and the realms. Even before recent upending of beliefs on the Voidbringers, the scientific world of Roshar is at least aware of the existence of its solar system (the Rosharan system). RoW ch. 89: While we can’t say for sure that the term Cosmere was typically used to refer to the universe on Roshar (it is used that way more commonly now, at least by the Fused), this passage points out two ways Rosharans are aware of the universe as we tend to think of it, as observable reality well beyond their own planet. The humans have scientific observation of stars and planets other than theirs, and they (as of recently) have confirmation of their own origins on another planet. Although it doesn’t seem as if common beliefs considered planets to be the reality behind myths like Damnation and the Tranquiline Halls, or as if other planets and the universe are widely thought about. Presumably, at least the Rosharans aware of the universe have a term for it, and Cosmere would seem to be a good bet for it. Ym’s interlude in WoR tells us that the term is also, or at least, in use amongst a peoples that don’t believe in god the way the Alethi tend to. However, in WoR ch. 49 Kaladin does think of their universe as literally “the universe”: I originally glossed this as the term “universe” being a translation for whatever Rosharan word would mean something like “all that is,” but now I’m wondering, wouldn’t Cosmere be the right word in that case? It’s also possible that this is a mistake, the author using our Earth term instead of the one Rosharans would use. Or it’s possible that different people on Roshar use different terms to refer to the universe. Or even that Ym was referring to a more spiritual sense of universe when he said Cosmere, because he was thinking about his religious beliefs; that more Cosmere-aware people use the term for the observable universe including the three realms; and that Kaladin was only talking about material reality in general and not what we think of as The Universe with its solar systems and galaxies.

Renarin literally has his Shardblade out when he runs into his brother at the end of Oathbringer. He was also going up the hill specifically to open the Oathgate, so it’s widely known he has a blade, and it at least functions similarly to a normal Radiant Blade. However, I don’t recall seeing Renarin with Shardplate yet. Does he get it after this? Oathbringer ch. 120 (both; it’s a loooong chapter):

We have to be careful not to sound like we’re accusing wronged parties of being hung up over what happened generations ago when many are still actively being oppressed. We can’t dismiss genuine grievances over continued mistreatment as some lingering hatred due to past atrocities. But at the same time, it’s harder to get over past events that continue to impose genetic and societal suffering. So, I 100% agree we shouldn’t be punishing people for the actions of their ancestors. There’s a big difference between retributive and restorative justice, between punishing sins and fixing them. But every Alethi living easier because of slave labor is responsible for their own current actions, just like every Singer who chooses to slaughter noncombatants is responsible for theirs. Every Alethi who decides nothing needs to be done to make current Singer lives better or make up for the deficit in which historical suffering leaves Singers is tacitly supporting past atrocities by affirming that they see no problem with the past atrocities’ lingering longterm effects…which makes them guilty of perpetuating those continuing injustices. If some learn the truth and can no longer justify trying to wipe out people they’ve already destroyed in more than one sense, that seems a pretty laudable response. It takes a degree of zealotry or coldness to continue killing for a cause you’ve realized wasn’t justified. And if some Alethi are fine continuing in comfort at the expense of others’ freedom, then it’s their own sins that are the problem, not their fathers’.

Yup, Korean has interrogative auxiliary words, too. In addition to an actual question verbal form (more than one version, especially depending on politeness level) that essentially turns sentences into questions, there are a few ways to essentially tack “is it not?” or “is it” onto words.

Honestly, it’s like Lift asked to be made into the perfect Shard Vessel – able to retain her identity even in the face of Shardic Intent and power. I don’t know if that would hold up to a Shard as contrary to her nature as, say, Odium, but it might be perfect for a new vessel for something more aligned to Lift and less likely to wear on her and in Cultivation’s effect as much.

We do have drops that darken eyes in real life, something used to treat glaucoma. Prostaglandin. I don’t think it’s very consistent though, and it should take a long time to happen. But increasing melanocyte concentration in the eye through something similar or depositing dark pigments with something more fantastical would be more plausible than lightening or changing to another light color somehow.

I completely agree that it would be useful to have an actually compassionate person who would stand up for morality or ethics, or basic human decency even toward people they wouldn’t consider human, out in the wider universe. @Gyirin’s right, it’s kind of terrifying imagining what would happen to the Cosmere if we don’t get more morally-decent people out in the mix. But I just realized the symbolism of Fleet dying at the end and his spirit being swept up into the storm could just as well be a hint at Kaladin leaving the confines of Roshar as a hint of him dying. So, maybe we should look at the excerpt in WoR ch. 59: Toward that theory, there are a few potential clues. For life alive? Refused to end this race? In that case, it’s possible “past the sea and past the waves” might mean beyond the planet itself. I hadn’t really thought of it being likely this story spoke about world-hopping rather than something like ascension, but then I looked at what Rock said. RoW ch. 12, near the end (emphasis mine): That sounded too much like going to death when I first read it, but it could just as well be what some people have been surmising over in the older Rock’s Fate thread or even older Rock thread, a new role for Rock that takes him off Roshar or into Shadesmar. In that vein, the Fleet story could be about death or an ascension (such as to Cognitive Shadow or a non-corporeal force within the Storm), yes. But could it instead be about ascending to a new role out in the wider Cosmere.

…To “be very like” is exactly the usage I said was acceptable. A person is a thing.

Wrong “like”. One thing can be “very like” another, as in the two things are very alike. A person cannot “very like” something, they must “very much like” it if it is something they enjoy a lot. That one’s proper usage as-is.

As far as the Oathpact being caput, we have several other mentions: In RoW ch. 17, Ash (who admittedly doesn’t seem very knowledgeable about the Oathpact) thinks it’s broken: When Dalinar looks at the Oathpact, he sees details suggesting the Oathpact isn’t shattered even though the Stormfather thinks it is. But no, it’s not functional. One line of it conceivably could be, but isn’t; the others are written off, especially the one that is broken. RoW ch. 47: So maybe it wouldn’t be accurate to say the Oathpact’s magic is shattered, but if the spirits that fuel that magic are broken, the Oathpact itself is effectively as shattered as they are and will remain nonfunctional. What I want to know, then, is exactly why the other lines are impotent. I had assumed that whatever was done to redirect the Oathpact to solely rely upon (and trap) Taln weakened the other connections. But if maybe this weakening was how Taln was left as the sole spirit powering the Oathpact, could it be that the other strands’ connections weakened every time one of the Heralds broke? Of course, if the assertion that Taln never broke is correct, then that means the Oathpact is broken even if we don’t consider it shattered. Because even though one of its parts remains sufficiently intact to have let the Oathpact function, it eventually stopped functioning anyway. A device that has all its pieces but can’t hold a charge is just as broken as one that fell apart.

I genuinely assumed it was doing all of the above, and probably two other things at the same time.

If you were looking to fling the gems around as weapons, it might make more sense (or at least be more amusing) to put them in the middle of something like a graphene chakra than into something like a crossbow bolt or bullet (also, wouldn’t that bullet actually be a missile if the gem was still inside it propelling it?). I still think the gems would be highly likely to shatter from impact at those velocities even with some really good shock absorption, but there’d be more space for force dampening than with bullets, and better advantage taken of the ability to redirect momentum (once perfected) without having to turn the tip of a crossbow bolt. …Or maybe I just think scything through threats is more visually impressive than gunning them down.

I think that possibility would be fun to explore. Looked at from the perspective of Shallan’s internal state, would that make Veil the wall, and the knowledge of the truth (okay, certain protected truths) God’s Light? In which case, Shallan would have already fulfilled the story. There are other, less internal, ways this could fit Shallan, as well. I suppose it would almost be necessary for Shallan to breach the walls keeping her on Roshar and go out into the wider universe, bringing back a dangerous knowledge/power, for the story to fit her the way the OP’s suggesting Fleet’s story might fit Kaladin. Given her desire to travel, that is a possibility. Likewise, the OP’s theory isn’t implausible. An implausible theory would be that all those near-death experiences and references to how Kaladin looked like death hint that Kaladin’s already something like a Cognitive Shadow that’s being carried along by the storm. I don’t think there’s really evidence for the OP’s speculation. But just like Shallan is potentially going over the wall by leaving the confines of her imprisoning world, Kaladin is supposed to be going to Shinovar. That’s a small point to pin that level of similarity between him and Fleet on, though. And the way Kaladin is tied to wind and keeps thinking about trying to stop a storm like Fleet did are thin details that don’t really support the contention of death and Cognitive Shadowhood mirroring Fleet’s. But where would the story of Fleet suggest Kaladin’s going? Can we track its rises and falls in his life since then? Do we take clues from Wit’s other stories to him? Or does it seem more sensible to assume each story has limited applications for only the moments in which they were given? It’s entirely possible these stories don’t have larger/layered meanings. But then, this is Wit.

Aw, if we’re thinking addiction’s the best draw, not hedonism, there go my thoughts of “Uncle Sebarial” saving the day. Though at least he’s good enough at plotting and planning ahead that he could probably pull off trapping the Heart of the Revel if it did like him. Not so sure Shallan’s brothers have the fortitude. I suppose that’s why the original thought was Teft.

I’m pretty sure the Shardbearers aren’t all that reasonable, themselves, given that the Shards gain increasing influence over time. They’re kind of driven. So, no idea why she made the decisions she did, or how much of it might have been out of sheer need to cultivate as opposed to craftiness. But Renarin likely wasn’t an issue where Szeth was concerned until after Szeth had Nightblood (and was near the Kholins). …Also, if Odium and Cultivation both had some degree of futuresight, presumably she’s used to taking into account that sort of interference. Unless I’ve missed something, and Renarin’s corrupted-spren abilities only mess with what Odium’s powers reveal.

Yes, thank you. Which has no bearing on whether the book is likely to be edited to change what Pattern said or whether referring to truths under the umbrella of oaths in this thread is causing a roadbump because it’s not the most general term.

I didn’t say the others were incorrect, I asked why we would bother using confusing terms that go against what the text said when terms are available that aren’t contraindicated in-world. …And then for some reason you quoted the wiki to prove the text wrong?

Maybe that’s the only real entertainment they get. Less glibly though, I imagine it’s something about the way certain entities see the future. Like, if you’ve viewed enough possibilities all converge on a specific event, the probability sufficiently approaches one. Assuming they have that degree of faith in their abilities.

Why would we confuse things by calling what Lightweavers speak “oaths” when they’re explicitly said not to be oaths in-text? WoR ch. 87: We don’t have to assume a separation of terms because the meaning of making an oath is entirely different from speaking a truth, we’re told by Pattern that the two are distinctly not the same thing. So instead of using terms that are specific to certain orders and that describe different actions, wouldn’t it make more sense to speak only of “Ideal” levels if we want a term that’s universal to Radiants?

He swore another Ideal to let her return fully to him, so the Stormfather couldn’t keep her away. WoR ch. 84: Protecting other people (Shallan) hadn’t let him hear Syl or feel Stormlight. But it seems like merely acting on the new Ideal – protecting Elhokar even though he didn’t like the king and knew there was no way to win if he fought for Elhokar – let Syl return fully to consciousness. Since he heard her voice and the Stormfather claimed a daughter disobeyed before Kaladin spoke the 3rd Ideal.

Stormfather said he accepted her Ideal, though: RoW ch. 117, Stormfather to Eshonai: